What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Prayer Warrior]

I am talking about the whole thread once you became aware that there was a person here directly affected by your opinions. Were they more than opinions? What do you know of her heart? I know that people here on this forum are often calloused to such things and will argue that this is a forum where people will express their ideas and each of should be thick-skinned. Perhaps there is some truth in that, but for me, and I believe for God, for every word we speak or write we are accountable. Are your words idle as they appeared to me? I still see nothing edifying to anyone in the thread. To me that makes them idle.

"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:35-36

WADR, there's something I think you're missing, and that's the fact that many judgmental words were spoken against Lynn Wilder, who is a meek soul. If anyone was torn down in this thread, she was. This woman cares about people who are caught in the web of deceit that she had been caught in for years.
.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

According to you it is deception. According to me, everyone on this forum who has not already completely overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world is deceived still in a measure. Who is able to determine the extent of that measure but God Himself? I don't know of a single person on this forum who already qualifies [certainly including myself], for none of us can see all of their hearts either...:

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

"...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

So then...

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:2

So, you're saying that Lynn Wilder's words are "without knowledge"?

 

[amadeus]

WADR, there's something I think you're missing, and that's the fact that many judgmental words were spoken against Lynn Wilder, who is a meek soul. If anyone was torn down in this thread, she was. This woman cares about people who are caught in the web of deceit that she had been caught in for years.

No, I am not missing that another person wrote a book which you are discussing. That person is not on this forum. You say she is a meek soul and never having met her nor read anything she wrote, I have no reason to doubt it. That also does not change what your agenda is... to tear down the Mormons in general based on what that woman wrote and your own admittedly bias opinion with regard to Mormons.

You brought the lady's word to this forum and you like what she wrote. Fine, but that still makes no one here right or wrong about the accuracy of what she wrote... I already wrote my opinion about deception on another post.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That also does not change what your agenda is... to tear down the Mormons in general based on what that woman wrote and your own admittedly bias opinion with regard to Mormons.

Now you're judging my heart and tearing me down after I said that it was not my agenda to tear anyone down. How is this different from what you're accusing me of?

I hope that what I'm saying is not coming across as disrespectful to you. You're older than I am, and I respect that you've been around longer. It seems that some kinds of wisdom only come with age.

 

[amadeus]

So, you're saying that Lynn Wilder's words are "without knowledge"?

No, yours are as you were not a member of the LDS with personal experience one way or the other. You can believe what she wrote but even if every word was true, how would you or any of it know better than another Mormon? Do you want to say that @Jane_Doe22 is ignorant of her own church or that she is purposely lying? Why not simply back off instead of arguing for what is only your opinion... unless you believe you have had a revelation from God making your ideas truth without reservation? If that were the case, you should have made that clear.

Will continuing this discussions accomplish anything good in the eyes of God? Really?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

No, yours are as you were not a member of the LDS with personal experience one way or the other. You can believe what she wrote but even if every word was true, how would you or any of it know better than another Mormon? Do you want to say that @Jane_Doe22 is ignorant of her own church or that she is purposely lying? Why not simply back off instead of arguing for what is only your opinion... unless you believe you have had a revelation from God making your ideas truth without reservation? If that were the case, you should have made that clear.

Will continuing this discussions accomplish anything good in the eyes of God? Really?

I've explained why I started this thread. You've determined that my motives are evil. What else can I say?

 

[amadeus]

Now you're judging my heart and tearing me down after I said that it was not my agenda to tear anyone down. How is this different from what you're accusing me of?

I hope that what I'm saying is not coming across as disrespectful to you. You're older than I am, and I respect that you've been around longer. It seems that some kinds of wisdom only come with age.

What I am saying is what I have seen. Am I wrong? You have said nothing to correct my conclusion if it is wrong.

If your purpose is not to tear down what you believe to be a deceptive cult, what is your purpose in this thread? Your purpose, good or bad, is your agenda. Everyone has one, whether it comes from God or not? Jesus had an agenda. His was His Father's.

 

[amadeus]

I've explained why I started this thread. You've determined that my motives are evil. What else can I say?

In the beginning your purpose may not have had an inherently evil intent. You may have been sincerely trying to inform people about what you considered a deceptive cult, but when @Jane_Doe22 came onto the scene you should have stopped and considered her position really if you really cared about her as much as you did about your original well intended purpose. Stopping and praying, talking to God, in the midst of our journey is not a bad thing. Consider the unnamed prophet sent out of Judah to Jeroboam the first king of the separated northern 10 tribes of Israel. He was a man of God, but he failed to check in with God when he should have. [I Kings 13] How often should we check in with God?

Because you believe you are right and that the Mormons are wrong, you felt that your agenda was more important than her position and belief. You only wanted to help her presuming that she wanted or needed help. God does not twist people's arms to correct them.

If you don't see the problems with your way and the possibility of, if not the fact of evil, you need to rethink your position and really talk to the Lord about it. Evil is not automatically inherent in certain doctrines although some people think so. Evil is according to what is in a person's heart... every time. Ultimately God cares about our hearts more than He ever cares about doctrinal differences. You justify yourself because you believe you have a superior set of doctrines. Who made the judgement that your doctrines were superior? Revelation from God? I am not wanting tear you down, but rather to help you see what is really happening here. Perhaps I have failed in that. It would not be the first time.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

If your purpose is not to tear down what you believe to be a deceptive cult, what is your purpose in this thread? Your purpose, good or bad, is your agenda. Everyone has one, whether it comes from God or not? Jesus had an agenda. His was His Father's.

Here are my words that I spoke to you a few posts ago: "I'm not interested in tearing down people, but in tearing down the lies that have them bound. This is my agenda."

Anything that clearly contradicts God's word is a lie. When Lynn Wilder came to see the truth through reading the New Testament, she was upset that no one in her life had told her the truth about the deception she was living in as a Mormon. She had family members who knew the truth, and they never bothered to explain the truth to her. She was very hurt by this.

Before my husband died, he was witnessing to his mom, who wasn't saved. His whole family tried to rescue her from hearing the gospel. It was very sad to watch as they kept her from hearing the truth. We need to make sure that we don't stand in God's way and block the gospel of our Lord from going out--even through the imperfect vessels that He chooses to use.

You've determined that God cannot possibly be in favor of my posting what Lynn has to say. All I can say about this is that God directed me to post excerpts from her book. But what good does it do for me to say this when you've judged my motives as evil.

This is not something I entered into flippantly. I knew that there would be spiritual warfare because the devil doesn't want these lies exposed, and I assumed my motives would be attacked. All I can say is that I will stand before God and give an account as to whether I obeyed Him in this matter.

We are all imperfect vessels. This certainly applies to me. If I haven't done what God directed me to do perfectly, all I can do is apologize for my shortcomings, but not for obeying Him.

I pray that God will bless you, Amadeus. I appreciate your sweet soul.

 

[Nancy]

In the beginning your purpose may not have had an inherently evil intent. You may have been sincerely trying to inform people about what you considered a deceptive cult, but when @Jane_Doe22 came onto the scene you should have stopped and considered her position really if you really cared about her as much as you did about your original well intended purpose. Stopping and praying, talking to God, in the midst of our journey is not a bad thing. Consider the unnamed prophet sent out of Judah to Jeroboam the first king of the separated northern 10 tribes of Israel. He was a man of God, but he failed to check in with God when he should have. [I Kings 13] How often should we check in with God?

Because you believe you are right and that the Mormons are wrong, you felt that your agenda was more important than her position and belief. You only wanted to help her presuming that she wanted or needed help. God does not twist people's arms to correct them.

If you don't see the problems with your way and the possibility of, if not the fact of evil, you need to rethink your position and really talk to the Lord about it. Evil is not automatically inherent in certain doctrines although some people think so. Evil is according to what is in a person's heart... every time. Ultimately God cares about our hearts more than He ever cares about doctrinal differences. You justify yourself because you believe you have a superior set of doctrines. Who made the judgement that your doctrines were superior? Revelation from God? I am not wanting tear you down, but rather to help you see what is really happening here. Perhaps I have failed in that. It would not be the first time.

Very tactful and thoughtful post @amadeus

 

[amadeus]

Here are my words that I spoke to you a few posts ago: "I'm not interested in tearing down people, but in tearing down the lies that have them bound. This is my agenda."

Anything that clearly contradicts God's word is a lie.

Yes, anything that "clearly" contradicts His Word is a lie. Do you always recognize lies? What did Apostle Paul mean when he quoted these words from the OT?

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Rom 3:4

Who is a liar? All of us our liars every time we open our mouths based on our own conclusions about the things of God. Even when we support one meaning of the scripture in error, it is a lie, even if an unintentional one. We need to careful what we teach people, do we not so as to not through our own ignorance teach them something that is wrong? Have you ever had any of your beliefs about God and the things of God changed? I certainly have. Before those changes, I, like the Apostle Paul before his encounter on the road to Damascus, lied to people based on scriptural knowledge. It was unintentional but my incorrect words were lies nonetheless. Is your knowledge so absolutely correct that you have never told somebody something to help that for them was not the truth? Consider what Paul wrote here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" I Cor 16:4

And then what it says in Hosea:

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son." Hosea 1:2-3

So for a God who never changes what has happened? Was Hosea a sinning fornicator? Were the written words of Paul a lie?

When Lynn Wilder came to see the truth through reading the New Testament, she was upset that no one in her life ever told her the truth about the deception she was living in as a Mormon. She had family members who knew the truth, and they never bothered to explain the truth to her. She was very hurt by this.

So tell the truth that you really know, but remember that others also believing they are telling the truth will sometimes be telling something different. On this forum alone you will see Bible students sharply and sometime harshly disagreeing with one another based on the written Bible. Does that tell you anything?

You cannot take on Lynn Wilder's truth as your own, nor mine, nor your pastor's, etc. What we all need is God's Truth. From the Bible? Yes, but remember others read the same Bibles with sometimes different interpretations. This is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, to sift through it all and quicken things within us [interpret them] at the time they are needed [often or seldom this is NOT done in advance].

Before my husband died, he was witnessing to his mom, who wasn't saved. His whole family tried to rescue her from hearing the gospel. It was very sad to watch as they kept her from hearing the truth. We need to make sure that we don't stand in God's way and block the gospel of our Lord from going out--even through the imperfect vessels that He chooses to use.

Don't block God, but don't get ahead of Him either. You are wanting an advance determination of how to treat every person you meet who according to your [not God's] interpretation is in error. You cannot make a rule that fits every situation and will always be true. What was true for your mother-in-law will not fit every other similar situation. Many times it will be the same, but sometimes there be a "Hosea" versus "Paul". The correct will be there in your heart when you are listening to His voice as one of His sheep. His sheep hear and recognize His voice. Don't presume. Pay attention to Him.

You've determined that God cannot possibly be in favor of my posting what Lynn has to say. All I can say about this is that God directed me to post excerpts from her book. But what good does it do for me to say this when you've judged my motives as evil.

I have determined nothing alone. God's determinations are always right. Mine determinations right only when they agree with His. I have rather hopefully asked you consider your ways as Haggai wrote it. You want black and white rules as men define black and white.

Man's definitions sometime match God's but don't count on it. Talk to God. His Way is always right, but don't presume yesterday's answer is today's answer. As I said in another post, in the beginning your intent may have been innocent and in accord with God's will. Don't presume that everything after that just falls into place. Every step...!

"The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way." Psalm 37:23

What is the next step?

This is not something I entered into flippantly. I knew that there would be spiritual warfare because the devil doesn't want these lies exposed, and I assumed my motives would be attacked. All I can say is that I will stand before God and give an account as to whether I obeyed Him in this matter.

Of course God is looking at your heart. If you never had an evil purpose, even when you were in error, God is not going to condemn you, but also pay attention to anything new that comes to your attention. Don't generalize and don't presume. You are not just doing a book report on the findings of the author of the book. You are dealing with real people. Deal with them fairly as you would want them to deal with you if you were on a Mormon forum and they were questioning your beliefs.

We are all imperfect vessels. This certainly applies to me. If I haven't done what God directed me to do perfectly, all I can do is apologize for my shortcomings, but not for obeying Him.

Just so! All of us are imperfect vessels, but we must also be growing closer to Him, which means the imperfections are being worked out of us, as we are allowing Him to do it. We are being remade bit by bit to be more like Him. God judges us at any time according to what we have and what we are doing with what we have. He understands better than any of us what our shortcomings are.

I pray that God will bless you, Amadeus. I appreciate your sweet soul.

Give God the glory! I'll take any of the blame.

 

[Grailhunter]

Here are my words that I spoke to you a few posts ago: "I'm not interested in tearing down people, but in tearing down the lies that have them bound. This is my agenda."

Anything that clearly contradicts God's word is a lie. When Lynn Wilder came to see the truth through reading the New Testament, she was upset that no one in her life had told her the truth about the deception she was living in as a Mormon. She had family members who knew the truth, and they never bothered to explain the truth to her. She was very hurt by this.

Before my husband died, he was witnessing to his mom, who wasn't saved. His whole family tried to rescue her from hearing the gospel. It was very sad to watch as they kept her from hearing the truth. We need to make sure that we don't stand in God's way and block the gospel of our Lord from going out--even through the imperfect vessels that He chooses to use.

You've determined that God cannot possibly be in favor of my posting what Lynn has to say. All I can say about this is that God directed me to post excerpts from her book. But what good does it do for me to say this when you've judged my motives as evil.

This is not something I entered into flippantly. I knew that there would be spiritual warfare because the devil doesn't want these lies exposed, and I assumed my motives would be attacked. All I can say is that I will stand before God and give an account as to whether I obeyed Him in this matter.

We are all imperfect vessels. This certainly applies to me. If I haven't done what God directed me to do perfectly, all I can do is apologize for my shortcomings, but not for obeying Him.

I pray that God will bless you, Amadeus. I appreciate your sweet soul.

You are a Smart lady....very stubborn....I will go out on a limb and say that is not the first time you have heard that. lol Of all the denominations we call Christians.....which ones are the "Best?" Which ones best represent Christianity? The Moslems have the Koran, it is a very well written book, but by their actions its cover might as well have Satan's face on it. A religion should reflected in their actions. What good is our denomination if we do not apply it like Christians. Jane pretty much stood alone against those that came at her. God so hates cowardice that the word does not even appear in the Old or New Testament. Jane gets that award, she stood fast. Do Christians have patience...I think she did that abundantly.....I have had Mormon friends all my life, not just in Missouri, all over, and they are generally a good representative for Christianity, their missionaries are nearly ambassadors for Christ. Their beliefs many not be exactly like ours.....after 2000 years, I am afraid the cat is out of the bag. If you think the Trinity are/is card board cutouts your wrong. If you think that things do not change, you are wrong. That thinking is why the Jews killed the prophets. Stephen rubbed the Jew's nose in that before they killed him. That thinking is why the Jew rejected Christ. Although God's Word in the Bible are stuck to pages, that Word lives beyond those pages.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Jane pretty much stood alone against those that came at her.

Uh huh, I know all about standing alone!

 

[4Jesus]

WADR, this is all a huge waste of time. If you want to know what Mormons think then go talk (listen, lurk un-) to them. Back when I was posing innocent and honest questions to Jane Doe that were accidently misplaced in the 'Welcome' forum, I went out and did my homework. I found and perused the 'Third Hour' (or something like that??) forum for dozens of hours.

What did I discover? Firstly, that Mormons are actually people. They spend 80-85% of their time talking about normal everyday mundane (aka BORING! LOL) life issues. And that Jane actually considered the D&C equal in authority to Scripture which wasn't made as abundantly clear in our thread months later to that Third Hour post. But there are some troubling things...

Like one thread I followed about a young father who was behind on tithes. And he was distraught that he could not get his young son (1 or 2 y/o?) baptized properly because of this. He and his wife had made a prudent choice to pay down personal debt instead. Got in arrears with the church.

So many of the very supportive other posters were encouraging him to just go talk to whoever that local authority was. I never studied the administrative structure closely. "Maybe he'll bend the rules?" was the general tone of it as best as I can recall.

Thus I was conflicted. People who were going about their daily business trying to live decently, but then these Pharisee-like additional burdens were placed on them. Kind of broke my heart for that conscientious young father.

Because of the extra stuff, here was a guy trying to do the biblical thing by paying down consumer debt and yet seemed to be risking something potentially eternally harmful on his young son. I go mostly by the man's angst to determine how burdened he felt and how serious something like this must be? Perhaps he got an exemption/extension? I never went back to look.

This is all just a matter of public record. Just like with this forum. Go read it for yourself. Don't take anyone else's word for it. Not mine, not passionate advocates nor books, con or pro. Just Mormons speaking in their own words about their real lives. Including church leadership and doctrinal and all sorts of church matters. Its the Full Mormonty!

I do find their view of the Godhead/Trinity as heretical. A few other things too.

Also ponder that I hear "authoritative" a lot, but never really can recall "Inspired". I do not know if the primary Prophet's words (not sure of the title?) have equal "authority" to the Scriptures? Or whether these additional works are considered truly equally Inspired to the traditional (Protestant) canon of Scripture?

I point out Protestant canon because I think the Apocrypha is rejected? Which if this is correct is quite interesting.

People need to examine these things for themselves.

Well said.

 

[brakelite]

WADR, this is all a huge waste of time. If you want to know what Mormons think then go talk (listen, lurk un-) to them. Back when I was posing innocent and honest questions to Jane Doe that were accidently misplaced in the 'Welcome' forum, I went out and did my homework. I found and perused the 'Third Hour' (or something like that??) forum for dozens of hours.

What did I discover? Firstly, that Mormons are actually people. They spend 80-85% of their time talking about normal everyday mundane (aka BORING! LOL) life issues. And that Jane actually considered the D&C equal in authority to Scripture which wasn't made as abundantly clear in our thread months later to that Third Hour post. But there are some troubling things...

Like one thread I followed about a young father who was behind on tithes. And he was distraught that he could not get his young son (1 or 2 y/o?) baptized properly because of this. He and his wife had made a prudent choice to pay down personal debt instead. Got in arrears with the church.

So many of the very supportive other posters were encouraging him to just go talk to whoever that local authority was. I never studied the administrative structure closely. "Maybe he'll bend the rules?" was the general tone of it as best as I can recall.

Thus I was conflicted. People who were going about their daily business trying to live decently, but then these Pharisee-like additional burdens were placed on them. Kind of broke my heart for that conscientious young father.

Because of the extra stuff, here was a guy trying to do the biblical thing by paying down consumer debt and yet seemed to be risking something potentially eternally harmful on his young son. I go mostly by the man's angst to determine how burdened he felt and how serious something like this must be? Perhaps he got an exemption/extension? I never went back to look.

This is all just a matter of public record. Just like with this forum. Go read it for yourself. Don't take anyone else's word for it. Not mine, not passionate advocates nor books, con or pro. Just Mormons speaking in their own words about their real lives. Including church leadership and doctrinal and all sorts of church matters. Its the Full Mormonty!

I do find their view of the Godhead/Trinity as heretical. A few other things too.

Also ponder that I hear "authoritative" a lot, but never really can recall "Inspired". I do not know if the primary Prophet's words (not sure of the title?) have equal "authority" to the Scriptures? Or whether these additional works are considered truly equally Inspired to the traditional (Protestant) canon of Scripture?

I point out Protestant canon because I think the Apocrypha is rejected? Which if this is correct is quite interesting.

People need to examine these things for themselves.

I have spent hours talking and chatting to my wife's cousin's husband on all matters religion. He is an elder of his local temple. Been a Mormon his whole life...his parents Mormon, his wife, his children. Went on the missionary trips...been through the ceremonies...the whole nine yards. We spoke of several doctrinal areas...the nature of God...the way of the gospel...the means by which we may be saved...heaven and hell...the relation to the Bible of the book or Mormon, D&C, the Pearl etc . This was a few years ago now. Since then he and my wife's cousin have divorced, he remarried, and we've moved to another country. So a lot of water has flown by, but what I remember of our interactions was the friendliness, the complete lack of personal offense taken when we disagreed; we started off as friends, and we finished as friends. The other thing I remember is our vast differences when it came to essential beliefs. The nature of God, justification by faith, the way of salvation in particular. What I also noticed was always his somewhat reticent regard to discussing the ceremonies. However, to him they were clearly important...even to the point that they were essential parts to his faith as not just a Mormon, but a Christian.
Now Jane Doe seems to agree with his beliefs...which surely doesn't come as a surprise. But Jane's insistence on being calling herself an LDS Christian, to me is skewed for the very reason I brought up previously in another post. Mormons equate their authenticity as Christians on a very different foundation than do other Christians...the Bible is not the sole basis for their faith and practice. Just as Catholics hold to tradition as being the equal to scripture, and in some cases interpret scripture by the traditions thus placing tradition above scripture, so Mormons have other 'scriptures' which in my discussions with my friend, and with others online such as Jane Doe, determine a faith that is something quite apart from Biblical Christianity.
I liken it to a basketballer playing the game according to the rules of netball. Similar goals, but completely different route to get there. Jane Doe affirms this, while getting offended at being challenged whether this is true Christianity or not. I don't think this an unfair, unjust, or inappropriate challenge. It isn't intended to be offensive. It isn't insulting. It is not disparaging her person, her character, or her personality.
Jane has offered herself as the local LDS representative here and challenged us to ask questions. We already know the answers though. We do not misunderstand Mormon doctrine. It's all over the internet. The question is whether Mormons can justifiably call themselves Christian based on what doctrines...true teachings...that both belief systems hold...and there are vast differences. Not just subtle differences over insignificant details, but major differences over major basic tenets of faith and practice. Jane seems to consider that the ceremonies and special events and programs etc so essentially Mormon, are at all necessary to progress and salvation generally as pertaining to the kingdom of God...yet are they not part and parcel of the Mormon gospel which we are told was completely unknown to the world until Joseph came along? Or are they simply nothing but superfluous addons like a pot luck lunch?

 

[brakelite]

brakelite, I'm OCD truthful. I just put good information out there and try to clarify things. Simple as that. I don't know how many times I've explained that. And yet you keep trying to "inform" me of my motivations. It is EXTREMELY disrespectful.

I have not questioned your motives...I wonder why you question Wilder's motives. What do you know about her that you are not letting on? What are the differences between what she described in her experience and what you would describe? How essential are those ceremonies to enter eternal life?

 

[Grailhunter]

I have spent hours talking and chatting to my wife's cousin's husband on all matters religion. He is an elder of his local temple. Been a Mormon his whole life...his parents Mormon, his wife, his children. Went on the missionary trips...been through the ceremonies...the whole nine yards. We spoke of several doctrinal areas...the nature of God...the way of the gospel...the means by which we may be saved...heaven and hell...the relation to the Bible of the book or Mormon, D&C, the Pearl etc . This was a few years ago now. Since then he and my wife's cousin have divorced, he remarried, and we've moved to another country. So a lot of water has flown by, but what I remember of our interactions was the friendliness, the complete lack of personal offense taken when we disagreed; we started off as friends, and we finished as friends. The other thing I remember is our vast differences when it came to essential beliefs. The nature of God, justification by faith, the way of salvation in particular. What I also noticed was always his somewhat reticent regard to discussing the ceremonies. However, to him they were clearly important...even to the point that they were essential parts to his faith as not just a Mormon, but a Christian.
Now Jane Doe seems to agree with his beliefs...which surely doesn't come as a surprise. But Jane's insistence on being calling herself an LDS Christian, to me is skewed for the very reason I brought up previously in another post. Mormons equate their authenticity as Christians on a very different foundation than do other Christians...the Bible is not the sole basis for their faith and practice. Just as Catholics hold to tradition as being the equal to scripture, and in some cases interpret scripture by the traditions thus placing tradition above scripture, so Mormons have other 'scriptures' which in my discussions with my friend, and with others online such as Jane Doe, determine a faith that is something quite apart from Biblical Christianity.
I liken it to a basketballer playing the game according to the rules of netball. Similar goals, but completely different route to get there. Jane Doe affirms this, while getting offended at being challenged whether this is true Christianity or not. I don't think this an unfair, unjust, or inappropriate challenge. It isn't intended to be offensive. It isn't insulting. It is not disparaging her person, her character, or her personality.
Jane has offered herself as the local LDS representative here and challenged us to ask questions. We already know the answers though. We do not misunderstand Mormon doctrine. It's all over the internet. The question is whether Mormons can justifiably call themselves Christian based on what doctrines...true teachings...that both belief systems hold...and there are vast differences. Not just subtle differences over insignificant details, but major differences over major basic tenets of faith and practice. Jane seems to consider that the ceremonies and special events and programs etc so essentially Mormon, are at all necessary to progress and salvation generally as pertaining to the kingdom of God...yet are they not part and parcel of the Mormon gospel which we are told was completely unknown to the world until Joseph came along? Or are they simply nothing but superfluous addons like a pot luck lunch?

Brakelite said The question is whether Mormons can justifiably call themselves Christian based on what doctrines...true teachings...that both belief systems hold...and there are vast differences.

Justifiably....that is problem! She does not need to justify her beliefs to you or anybody. You do not hold the rule.
True teachings.....Man you have to be kidding! 30,000 some odd different Protestant interpretations of true teachings. Which one is right?...yours...you are the judge? You decide the rules of justification?
Both belief systems....and you are only worried about two?
How many religions can you say you do not believe in? You could probably say there are a lot of these 30,000 denominations you do not believe in, and that is fine. But when you say justify, that means that you have some sort of self delusion that makes you the judge, and you are no judge in such matters. You only have the right to judge that their religion is not yours....it is not your call, if they are Christians or not. You place yourself as God. That is a problem.
Pot luck lunch....Baskin & Robins...31 flavors, we could only wish the numbers would be that low.
To say you do not believe in their beliefs is enough....anymore than that and you place yourself as a judge in the affairs of God. As I said before the scriptures are there, written in ink on paper, but the Word of God is living and cannot be bound by any book. Beyond that, just common sense, it would be an absurd idea to think that the Trinity has not been active over the last 2000 years. Interacting with humanity in so many ways with revelations and movements of the Holy Spirit, and the Grace of God. No the Trinity did not retire or wait on the justification of brakelite to be God.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Good morning everyone! (For you Aussies on here, is it good night?)

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After getting a good night's sleep and giving everyone's emotions time to cool down, I have a few things to say.

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1. Judging one another's motives needs to stop! Jesus tells us not to judge for a good reason. Let's keep our comments to the material presented and not people's character..... I have seen more than one thread on this topic derailed because of this.

2. Just because someone doesn't like what a person is saying, this doesn't mean that it should not be said. If this were the case, then most of what's written in this forum wouldn't be here. But I believe this exchange of ideas is important and should continue.

***For that matter, if this were the case, most of what was written in the Bible wouldn't be there.

3. At times tempers have flared and emotions have gotten out of hand. My suggestion is that if any of us is getting too emotional, take a break! Often things looks very different when the emotions have had a chance to settle down.

I'm getting this thread back on topic. I would like to hear some comments about the things Lynn Wilder has said in her book. I'll be posting more excerpts today. If you are tempted to say anything against her character (or anyone else's), please don't!

Otherwise, have fun!

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[Prayer Warrior]

The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

Mormonism calls its spirit the “Holy Ghost.” It’s not the same as the eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, Holy Spirit of Truth from the Bible. The LDS Holy Ghost is described in the church manual for new members, Gospel Principles, as “a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at one time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.”(55) The Holy Ghost of Mormonism can be in only one place, but the Holy Spirit of the Bible is all places at once (Ps. 139:7 – 10). The Doctrine and Covenants says, “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false” (D&C 130:3). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit of Truth “lives in you” (1 Cor. 3:16 NIV 1984). As these conflicting passages demonstrate, they’re not the same spirit.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 323-324). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Footnotes:

55. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gospel Principles (1997), 37.

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 366). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

 

[4Jesus]

You are a Smart lady....very stubborn....I will go out on a limb and say that is not the first time you have heard that. lol

Now hold up here; didn't you just accuse me of having bad manners of how I talk with a lady? And here you are saying something negative about PW.

You sure seem to like to sling the accusations and assumptions around, and don't question yourself if what you are doing is the same thing you're accusing, repeatedly. Those words from you earlier, with your overbearing attempt at authority, are hypocritical at best, and completely wrong at worst, as you still can't show me proof that I was rude and had bad manners to a lady, and yet, here is proof for you, from you.

You may be able to pull arguments out of thin air and think they are accurate and true, but that doesn't make it so in reality here.

Of all the denominations we call Christians.....which ones are the "Best?" Which ones best represent Christianity? The Moslems have the Koran, it is a very well written book, but by their actions its cover might as well have Satan's face on it. A religion should reflected in their actions. What good is our denomination if we do not apply it like Christians. Jane pretty much stood alone against those that came at her. God so hates cowardice that the word does not even appear in the Old or New Testament. Jane gets that award, she stood fast.

No one here was acting unChristian-like, until recently. No one name-called, no one put another down. There is going to be disagreements; nothing wrong with that, that's why we're here, to discuss.

No one is forcing anyone in this thread to remain here. Anyone can stop at any time. No one is harassing another here, it's just basic conversation, one speaks, then another. Now if someone were to post to someone repeatedly with no reply, then that can be considered harassment, but that hasn't happened once - everyone is replying by choice.

And you are not the judge in this thread, nor on this board; you are not able to determine "Christianality" here, nor is anyone else; sure you can have an opinion, but so can others. You're using a logical fallacy here; the appeal to authority fallacy.

Do Christians have patience...I think she did that abundantly.....I have had Mormon friends all my life, not just in Missouri, all over, and they are generally a good representative for Christianity, their missionaries are nearly ambassadors for Christ. Their beliefs many not be exactly like ours.....after 2000 years, I am afraid the cat is out of the bag. If you think the Trinity are/is card board cutouts your wrong. If you think that things do not change, you are wrong. That thinking is why the Jews killed the prophets. Stephen rubbed the Jew's nose in that before they killed him. That thinking is why the Jew rejected Christ. Although God's Word in the Bible are stuck to pages, that Word lives beyond those pages.

I think we all have had patience. There wasn't much, if at all, mudslinging, going on. It was a strictly logical and reasonable discussion by willing participants. Because one doesn't like the information therein, does not mean it's automatically "negative" or "wrong".

As to which "denomination" is right, when each are against the other, I'm with you on that. But no one here has called others non-Christian, so that argument is not relevant. I think the argument in this thread, at it's core, is aspects of denominations, which inherently means it is of that "parent" group, which is Christianity in this case.