What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Blueberry]

You are right and thank you for that...but we are both are right....Christ laid His life down and the Romans crucified Him....

Yeah, otherwise it would have been required suicide, I guess?

 

[Blueberry]

we are both are right

I never really saw it as a right or wrong thing. Just wanted to make a distinction between Christ and OT prophets.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thiat isan interesting incident. Obviously the demons were being cast out, and the faith and authority those 'strangers' were working under was effective. On the other hand we have another incident...
KJV Acts 19
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

What we are attempting to ascertain here is on which side do the LDS folk sit on. While they may speak the name of Jesus and do works in His name, what will Jesus say to them in the final analysis... Paul I know and Steven I know... But who are you? It is my fervent prayer and hope that in Jane Does case, this shall not be. My fear is that a great many Mormons are trusting in these ceremonies and rituals in order to be saved. And in their membership of a church which claims to be the vessel for a gospel that until the 19 th century, no one was aware of. If that is the case, we all need to be Mormons... None of us know Christ... And the demons are pouncing all over us and jumping up and down on our long held convictions with glee. But you and I know that is not the case.

1. You are not going to make that "ascertain" by making her defensive.
2. If you use negative terms....it will go negative. "Claims" you are under the spot light under interrogation among people that don't like you. Among conspiracy theorists who's intentions are obvious, to get information that they can use for their claims and against her.
3. She has shown remarkable patience with you. The character of Christianity so for, leans to her.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

WADR, this is all a huge waste of time. If you want to know what Mormons think then go talk (listen, lurk un-) to them. Back when I was posing innocent and honest questions to Jane Doe that were accidently misplaced in the 'Welcome' forum, I went out and did my homework. I found and perused the 'Third Hour' (or something like that??) forum for dozens of hours.

What did I discover? Firstly, that Mormons are actually people. They spend 80-85% of their time talking about normal everyday mundane (aka BORING! LOL) life issues. And that Jane actually considered the D&C equal in authority to Scripture which wasn't made as abundantly clear in our thread months later to that Third Hour post. But there are some troubling things...

Like one thread I followed about a young father who was behind on tithes. And he was distraught that he could not get his young son (1 or 2 y/o?) baptized properly because of this. He and his wife had made a prudent choice to pay down personal debt instead. Got in arrears with the church.

So many of the very supportive other posters were encouraging him to just go talk to whoever that local authority was. I never studied the administrative structure closely. "Maybe he'll bend the rules?" was the general tone of it as best as I can recall.

Thus I was conflicted. People who were going about their daily business trying to live decently, but then these Pharisee-like additional burdens were placed on them. Kind of broke my heart for that conscientious young father.

Because of the extra stuff, here was a guy trying to do the biblical thing by paying down consumer debt and yet seemed to be risking something potentially eternally harmful on his young son. I go mostly by the man's angst to determine how burdened he felt and how serious something like this must be? Perhaps he got an exemption/extension? I never went back to look.

This is all just a matter of public record. Just like with this forum. Go read it for yourself. Don't take anyone else's word for it. Not mine, not passionate advocates nor books, con or pro. Just Mormons speaking in their own words about their real lives. Including church leadership and doctrinal and all sorts of church matters. Its the Full Mormonty!

I do find their view of the Godhead/Trinity as heretical. A few other things too.

Also ponder that I hear "authoritative" a lot, but never really can recall "Inspired". I do not know if the primary Prophet's words (not sure of the title?) have equal "authority" to the Scriptures? Or whether these additional works are considered truly equally Inspired to the traditional (Protestant) canon of Scripture?

I point out Protestant canon because I think the Apocrypha is rejected? Which if this is correct is quite interesting.

People need to examine these things for themselves.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I did what you did. I went to a Mormon forum and read about the problems people there were struggling with. My heart went out to them just as yours did. I also went to the official LDS website and read in their owns words what they have to say. I have read what JD has to say.... I have examined some things "for myself."

Posting excerpts of Lynn Wilder's book gives us another perspective--that of someone who spent 30 years as a devout Mormon and now places her trust in the Jesus of the Bible. I consider her perspective as being very valuable for those of us trying to sift through what's what in Mormon doctrine.

So, I respectfully disagree that this is a waste of time. Hopefully, some of us know more about the unbiblical Mormon doctrines, such as their "heretical" views of the Godhead/Trinity. I completely agree with your assessment about this, BTW.

If you read all of my posts, then you have seen that Mormons are taught that the Book of Mormon is the "most correct book..." This means that they see their other "scriptures" as having equal or greater authority than the Bible. This qualifies as heresy also, no?

My hope and prayer is that people who are trapped in this cult will know the truth as God has revealed it to us in the Bible. I'm also concerned for the people who are seriously considering Mormonism as a viable option.

It is my earnest prayer that all who are held captive will find the freedom that Jesus came to give us!! These words spoken by Jesus in Luke 4:18-19 come to mind:

The Spirit of the Lord is on Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent Me
to proclaim freedom to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set free the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Except that:
1) BYU isn't seminary at all. LDS Christians don't even have what a Protestant would call a seminary (LDS "seminary" is something different).
2) BYU isn't remotely exclusive and does welcome non-LDS folks there, including as tenured professors.
3) She was a professor of Counseling Psychology and Special Education, not any theological basis.
4) She neglected to tell you that.
5) And gps doesn't remotely count as credential for authority.


Now.. why do you trust her?

You are mistaken, JD. Lynn did not say she taught in a seminary. Read her bio in the OP. I took it from her website.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You are mistaken, JD. Lynn did not say she taught in a seminary. Read her bio in the OP. I took it from her website.

I was replying to breklite's comment, wherein he called BYU a seminary.

I am still waiting for an answer to this question:
Your fear is leading you to treat me and many other people as objects that you need to "save" rather than individuals Christ loves and died for.
Do you really think God wants you to act this way? Or that such methods are going to bring closer to your beliefs?
(from post 380)​

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I was replying to breklite's comment, wherein he called BYU a seminary.

I am still waiting for an answer to this question:
Your fear is leading you to treat me and many other people as objects that you need to "save" rather than individuals Christ loves and died for.
Do you really think God wants you to act this way? Or that such methods are going to bring closer to your beliefs?
(from post 380)​

I'm not really understanding what you're saying. How could it be fear leading me to do the things you're accusing me of?

And you haven't exactly answered all of my questions either, but that's your prerogative.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm not really understanding what you're saying. How could it be fear leading me to do the things you're accusing me of?

This one:

Very well spoken, Brakelite! These are BIG concerns of mine. I'm also concerned about seekers who look at Mormonism and think it is a legitimate denomination within biblical Christianity. I hate to see anyone get sucked into a cult.

Do you really think God wants you to treat people as objects? Or that such methods are going to bring closer to your beliefs?​

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I was replying to breklite's comment, wherein he called BYU a seminary.

I was talking about the following things you said about Lynn. (I bolded part of your quote.)

Except that:
1) BYU isn't seminary at all. LDS Christians don't even have what a Protestant would call a seminary (LDS "seminary" is something different).
2) BYU isn't remotely exclusive and does welcome non-LDS folks there, including as tenured professors.
3) She was a professor of Counseling Psychology and Special Education, not any theological basis.
4) She neglected to tell you that.
5) And gps doesn't remotely count as credential for authority.

Now.. why do you trust her?
​

Edit: I was making the point that she didn't say she taught in a seminary, so why would you say that she neglected to us this?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

This one:

Do you really think God wants you to treat people as objects? Or that such methods are going to bring closer to your beliefs?​

This is the post you're talking about:

Your fear is leading you to treat me and many other people as objects that you need to "save" rather than individuals Christ loves and died for.

Do you really think God wants you to act this way? Or that such methods are going to bring closer to your beliefs?

I never said I was afraid of anything. I said I was concerned. Do these words mean the same thing to you?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This is the post you're talking about:

I never said I was afraid of anything. I said I was concerned. Do these words mean the same thing to you?

Answer my question.
Do you think that the way you treat people like objects is whawt Christ wants you to do? Or that it's going to convince people to embrace your bleiefs?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Answer my question.
Do you think that the way you treat people like objects is whawt Christ wants you to do? Or that it's going to convince people to embrace your bleiefs?

You're really sounding like a bully, JD. I choose not to answer your question just as you have chosen not to answer some of mine.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You're really sounding like a bully, JD. I choose not to answer your question just as you have chosen not to answer some of mine.

Then this conversation is done. I am done talking to a person that calls it "godly" to treat other people as objects and to do so in God's name.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Then this conversation is done. I am done talking to a person that calls it "godly" to treat other people as objects and to do so in God's name.

That's your take on it. God will be my judge, not you.

This thread was never meant to be a conversation exclusively with you. If you're done, that's your choice.

 

[amadeus]

That's your take on it. God will be my judge, not you.

This was never meant to be a conversation exclusively with you. If you're done, that's your choice.

But it was certainly meant to expose what you considered the errors of Mormons in general without regard to the negative fall-out sent against people like @Jane_Doe22 who is, from what I am able to see, one of the better followers of Christ on this forum without regard to affiliation. What have you done that would somehow edify God's people and people who would or could become God's people? Tearing down something based on second hand information and evidence for the most part as you were never yourself a Mormon... that is what I see that you have done. Where is the edification?

Are my words against you unwarranted? Perhaps, but are they worse than those you have used with regard to this dear sister, who has been here on the forum for a while and has gained friends among non-Mormons by her good Spirit.

Don't say it was not personal unless you have asked her if it was in anyway needlessly hurtful. Who but she and God would really know?

When she first expressed a problem with it, you still being very sure of yourself would not back off but forged ahead post after post with your agenda... in which I still see no edification for followers of Christ.

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." I Cor 14:26

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Answer my question.
Do you think that the way you treat people like objects is whawt Christ wants you to do? Or that it's going to convince people to embrace your bleiefs?

I never said that you're not a Christian. The problem is that you've tried to get me to say that you are one. It's not my call.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Are my words against you unwarranted? Perhaps, but are they worse than those you have used with regard to this dear sister, who has been here on the forum for a while and has gained friends among non-Mormons by her good Spirit.

What specific words are you talking about? I mean, what words have I spoken against JD?

I'm really interested to know.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

But it was certainly meant to expose what you considered the errors of Mormons in general without regard to the negative fall-out sent against people like @Jane_Doe22 who is, from what I am able to see, one of the better followers of Christ on this forum without regard to affiliation. What have you done that would somehow edify God's people and people who would or could become God's people? Tearing down something based on second hand information and evidence for the most part as you were never yourself a Mormon... that is what I see that you have done. Where is the edification?

Are my words against you unwarranted? Perhaps, but are they worse than those you have used with regard to this dear sister, who has been here on the forum for a while and has gained friends among non-Mormons by her good Spirit.

Don't say it was not personal unless you have asked her if it was in anyway needlessly hurtful. Who but she and God would really know?

When she first expressed a problem with it, you still being very sure of yourself would not back off but forged ahead post after post with your agenda... in which I still see no edification for followers of Christ.

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." I Cor 14:26

Amadeus, I understand your defense of a friend, but is it love when we leave a friend in deception? Is it love when we protect people from the truth? I'm not interested in tearing down people, but in tearing down the lies that have them bound. This is my agenda.

 

[amadeus]

What specific words are you talking about? I mean, what words have I spoken against JD?

I'm really interested to know.

I am talking about the whole thread once you became aware that there was a person here directly affected by your opinions. Were they more than opinions? What do you know of her heart? I know that people here on this forum are often calloused to such things and will argue that this is a forum where people will express their ideas and each of should be thick-skinned. Perhaps there is some truth in that, but for me, and I believe for God, for every word we speak or write we are accountable. Are your words idle as they appeared to me? I still see nothing edifying to anyone in the thread. To me that makes them idle.

"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:35-36

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus, I understand your defense of a friend, but is it love when we leave a friend in deception? Is it love when we protect people from the truth? I'm not interested in tearing down people, but in tearing down the lies that have them bound. This is my agenda.

According to you it is deception. According to me, everyone on this forum who has not already completely overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world is deceived still in a measure. Who is able to determine the extent of that measure but God Himself? I don't know of a single person on this forum who already qualifies [certainly including myself], for none of us can see all of their hearts either...:

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

"...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

So then...

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:2