What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Prayer Warrior]

As I just said: I've been watching these type of arguments for over 30 years. As long as the conversation is distracted with spam about junk & men's sins (that includes any man-made book), it's never edifying and everyone just walks away with a bitter taste thinking the other guy is an idiot.

So, you're going to continue to call what Lynn has said "junk" and not give your accusation any support? How is this edifying?? Could this be what you meant by treating other people as objects--calling them names and calling what they say "junk"? No one in this thread has done this to you (that I have seen).

Actually Paul spent his time preaching truth. He does't waste much time talking about what other people believe. He focused on Christ.

Have you read the book of Galatians lately? So much of what Paul said in this epistle was addressing doctrinal issues. The Galatians were being told by some of the Jews that they had to follow the Mosaic law. He used some pretty forceful language to tell them that they were way off about this.

Here's some of what Paul had to say in Galatians 3:

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.​

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

 

[4Jesus]

From a million conversations with "anti-cult" folks. It's not a universal trend by any means even within that anti-cult-camp, but it is a very common one.

So we don't even have their words, not even a book, to discuss it... If what you say is true, then they're hypocritical at best, and flat-out wrong at worst, if they're treating LDS and Catholicism different (perhaps they're in Catholicism and don't see it) on the basis of non-scripture teachings/doctrines influencing the ways of the denomination.

As to LDS being a cult, or anti-cult people, Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" - guess I'm in a sect/cult, sect/cult of the Nazarene, in my circus/clown group with a ringleader...better than the alternative.

 

[Harvest 1874]

With what actually took place following the death of the last of the Apostles. While they were alive and were on the seen they were able to keep the Church pretty much clear of deceptive teachings, but “while men slept” (that is when the last of these died, Matt 13:25) the spirit of antichrist which had already begun in the early church grew expeditiously resulting in a falling away (an apostasy) from the simplicity of the gospel truth and as such led to the development of the Antichrist, the “Man of Sin”, the Papacy.

So how many years after the close the Bible was the Antichrist suppose to appear? In these last days?

You must have missed the last part of our statement, the falling away from the truth led to the development of the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, i.e. the Papacy, NOT an individual, but a false (apostate) religious SYSTEM.

See the following blog post:

The Antichrist Revealed

The Abomination of Desolation

 

[4Jesus]

Are you saying the Mormon scriptures or the Bible?

Go back and look at the first few pages of this thread. Enoch111 mentioned a person who left LDS and explains their beliefs.

Sorry I forgot to reply to your question. I'm saying if the information that Wilder is true, regarding Mormon scriptures or teachings, then a lot of it does not align/support/reinforce with the/most Bible/Bibles (different topic altogether on which Bible is "the" Bible ).

 

[Harvest 1874]

As the Bible went along someone took the names of God the Father and God the Son out of the Bible…significant in several ways, but one of them is that, only one name can be called upon for salvation, and how many Christians know it?

Go take a trip to Jerusalem and you will find out the name of that town starts with a “Y” as does any name of a person, place, or thing that starts with a “J” in the Bible, because the letter “J” nor its pronunciation did not exist during the biblical era and did not exist for another 1400 years after Christ. If you have the letter “J” in your Bible someone has changed it! Considering all of that….and you are worried about the Mormons? Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel! There are real things to be concerned about, but it is not the Mormons.

Who's worried about Mormons?

I didn't say anything about Mormons

As for your remark about if one has a "J" in their Bible someone has changed it, the same is true if your Bible has the words "God the Son" in them, there's no such thing, it is not written anywhere in the Scriptures. If you have it written thusly in your Bible, it has been changed. This is only an inference or supposition put forth by our Trinity friends.

 

[4Jesus]

You must have missed the last part of our statement, the falling away from the truth led to the development of the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, i.e. the Papacy, NOT an individual, but a false (apostate) religious SYSTEM.

See the following blog post:

The Antichrist Revealed

The Abomination of Desolation

Do you not agree that even the falling away, the influencing of those easily deceived, is because satan was there to enact it (tickling ears, if you will)? It all goes back to satan, even getting some "good angels" to follow him and rebel against God, becoming "bad angels". I guess my point is, satan has affected the angelic too, not just men/"Man of Sin".

 

[Harvest 1874]

There is only one High Priest, and no other mediator...aka priest... Between man and Christ.

A correction is needed here, as it is written, "There is one God AND one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2:5) The mediator does not stand between man and Christ, the mediator is Christ and he stands between God and men.

 

[4Jesus]

A correction is needed here, as it is written, "There is one God AND one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2:5) The mediator does not stand between man and Christ, the mediator is Christ and he stands between God and men.

lol, the version I have is "5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (no capitalization of "man").

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So, you're going to continue to call what Lynn has said "junk" and not give your accusation any support? How is this edifying??

Read my words again, especially the bold part:
"As long as the conversation is distracted with spam about junk & men's sins (that includes any man-made book), it's never edifying and everyone just walks away with a bitter taste thinking the other guy is an idiot."

Have you read the book of Galatians lately?

Literally in the process this week.

So much of what Paul said in this epistle was addressing doctrinal issues. The Galatians were being told by some of the Jews that they had to follow the Mosaic law. He used some pretty forceful language to tell them that they were way off about this.

Here's some of what Paul had to say in Galatians 3:

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.​

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

As I said: Paul doesn't spend much time talking about what other people believe, and instead focuses on Christ.

Let's talk about Christ.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Read my words again, especially the bold part:
"As long as the conversation is distracted with spam about junk & men's sins (that includes any man-made book), it's never edifying and everyone just walks away with a bitter taste thinking the other guy is an idiot."

Literally in the process this week.

As I said: Paul doesn't spend much time talking about what other people believe, and instead focuses on Christ.

Let's talk about Christ.

LOL, IOW, you continue to refuse to support your claim that what Lynn says is "junk." Okay, that's your prerogative, but Lynn's prerogative is to show that the very basics of LDS doctrine are unbiblical, and she supports this claim.
.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

LOL, IOW, you continue to refuse to support your claim that what Lynn says is "junk." Okay, that's your prerogative, but Lynn's is to show that the very basics of LDS doctrine are unbiblical, and she supports this claim.
.

Again, you didn't read my words:
"(that includes ANY man-made book), it's never edifying "

Now, do you want to talk about Christ, which is edifying?

 

[4Jesus]

Read my words again, especially the bold part:
"As long as the conversation is distracted with spam about junk & men's sins (that includes any man-made book), it's never edifying and everyone just walks away with a bitter taste thinking the other guy is an idiot."

Literally in the process this week.

As I said: Paul doesn't spend much time talking about what other people believe, and instead focuses on Christ.

Let's talk about Christ.

I'm still having an issue with understanding something: how is the Book of Mormon not a man-made book? Is it because it is viewed that scriptures are not God's Word, that the scriptures needed an addendum to "bring them up to speed"? Wouldn't that then be supplanting God's Word/scriptures (if one believes "scriptures" are God's Word of course)?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I'm still having an issue with understanding something: how is the Book of Mormon not a man-made book? Is it because it is viewed that scriptures are not God's Word, that the scriptures needed an addendum to "bring them up to speed"? Wouldn't that then be supplanting God's Word/scriptures (if one believes "scriptures" are God's Word of course)?

If I could "love" this post, I would!!!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm still having an issue with understanding something: how is the Book of Mormon not a man-made book? Is it because it is viewed that scriptures are not God's Word, that the scriptures needed an addendum to "bring them up to speed"? Wouldn't that then be supplanting God's Word/scriptures (if one believes "scriptures" are God's Word of course)?

If I could "love" this post, I would!!!

​

It's very agreed upon that Lynn Wilder is not God, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about her words at all.

As to the Book of Mormon: I'm an LDS Christian, and do believe that the Book of Mormon is part of God's words. Now we can talk about that if you want. Totally.

Or we could just stay talking about the Bible and people's experiences with God. That's very cool too.

Let's talk about Christ.

 

[4Jesus]

It's very agreed upon that Lynn Wilder is not God, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about her words at all.

As to the Book of Mormon: I'm an LDS Christian, and do believe that the Book of Mormon is part of God's words. Now we can talk about that if you want. Totally.

Or we could just stay talking about the Bible and people's experiences with God. That's very cool too.

Let's talk about Christ.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean those questions to be rhetorical. I'm genuinley curious if my understanding is wrong, or I haven't learned all aspects; trying to weigh all sides here. I'm not trying to have an agenda other than what it has been this whole time, nor "interoggate" you, so if you don't want to discuss it, no big deal either way.

In my view, this all leads into strengthening our conviction(s) in Jesus, in talking and thinking of Him, so how can that not be good? I agree that it's not good if it starts decaying into name-calling and insults, if it goes beyond basic conversation/discussion.

 

[brakelite]

A correction is needed here, as it is written, "There is one God AND one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2:5) The mediator does not stand between man and Christ, the mediator is Christ and he stands between God and men.

Yes, you are correct. My bad.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

It's very agreed upon that Lynn Wilder is not God, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about her words at all.

As to the Book of Mormon: I'm an LDS Christian, and do believe that the Book of Mormon is part of God's words. Now we can talk about that if you want. Totally.

Or we could just stay talking about the Bible and people's experiences with God. That's very cool too.

Let's talk about Christ.

If this is what you believe, then why do you talk about Joseph Smith's words or any LDS prophet's words?? Are they God?

You're not being consistent.

 

[amadeus]

I respect you, and I believe that I have shown you this, so please know that I am not intending to be disrespectful to you when I say what I have to say. You are welcome to your opinion about this thread, as everyone is. And no one is forced to participate in any forum that they think is a waste of time.

Even so! Let it be as you say. Even if I had the authority I would not stop you from pursuing this. There are worse things to do... but neither do I consider this the best... of things to do, that is. Sometimes we pressed to do things we don't want to do. Sometimes I simply wonder why...

I agree that not everything being said is edifying. Calling people names is not edifying. Judging people's character because they disagree with us is not edifying.

We agree.

However, a discussion about unbiblical doctrine can be edifying if we all behave ourselves and limit our comments to the issue at hand. There are many threads set up to discuss doctrinal issues. I have participated in some over the last year, but I have never seen so many objections to this type of thread based on protecting a person's feelings. It's not that I don't care about the feelings of others. I think that I have shown that I do care over the last year. I set up this thread because I care about people who may be caught in the snares of deception.

You are right about the discussion so long as it is considering what is or is not biblical. I guess I don't like it because it opens one more door to those who will attack individuals simply because they disagree with them. It seems that you don't usually, if ever, do that... attack people that... but LOL [no malice in my laugh] you do open doors. Carry on... Everyone does not think about this as I do. I am sure if that is good or not.

Give God the glory!

In one of the threads I participated in some time ago, the Catholics were under attack. I think they've taken it on the chin more than anyone. (Of course our friend BoL launches a pretty intensive counter attack.) But I never heard someone saying that the thread should be abandoned because of anyone's feelings even though some offensive things were said on both sides of the debate, unfortunately.

The truth of the matter is, I don't like any threads where name calling and finger pointing is the norm... and many of those Catholic involved threads go that way. Unfortunately, our moderators are not watching things as carefully as I would. But... there is also nothing we can do about that. If it is an honest debate with no name calling, good. As I said, you opened the door, which ... but enough said on that.

It's sad to me that you don't recognize the importance of this endeavor--sorting out truth from error. The fact is that there may be some people who are being edified by the excerpts from Lynn's book, etc. You haven't talked to everyone who has read this thread.

I hear what you are saying. To me it is still presuming too much... but as you say, I don't have participate when and if mud starts to fly. Important? Ultimately, that isn't my call, but I do have an opinion. You already have heard at least some part of my opinion.

I certainly hear your concerns, but I have to do what I believe the Lord is leading me to do. When He tells me that I'm done here, I will be happier than anyone, believe me. Having my motives judged as evil by some of you has not been easy, but I know that our Lord endured much much much worse than this.

You believe it is OK for you to continue in the eyes of God. So as I said, carry on. If it really is, who am I to even try to interfere... unless I see a problem where God wants me involved? That is His call.

As always, I pray that God's purposes will be accomplished here.

As do I, not on this thread alone, but on all of the forum.
Give God the glory!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Even so! Let it be as you say. Even if I had the authority I would not stop you from pursuing this. There are worse things to do... but I neither do I consider this the best... of things to do, that is. Sometimes we pressed to do things we don't want to do. Sometimes I simply wonder why...


We agree.


You are right about the discussion so long as it is considering what is or is not biblical. I guess I don't like it because opens one more door to those who will attack individuals simply they disagree with them. It seems that you don't usually, if ever, do that... attack people that... but LOL [no malice in my laught] you do open doors. Carry on... Everyone does not think about this as I do. I am sure if that is good or not.

Give God the glory!

The truth of the matter is, I don't like any threads where name calling and finger pointing is the norm... and many of those Catholic involved threads go that way. Unfortunately, our moderators are not watching things as carefully as I would. But... there is also nothing we can do about that. If it is an honest debate with no name calling, good. As I said, you opened the door, which ... but enough said on that.


I hear what you are saying. To me it is still presuming too much... but as you say, I don't have participate when and if mud starts to fly. Important? Ultimately, that isn't my call, but I do have an opinion. You already have heard at least some part of my opinion.


You believe it is OK for you to continue in the eyes of God. So as I said, carry on. If it really is, who am I to even try to interfere... unless I see a problem where God wants me involved? That is His call.


As do I, not on this thread alone, but on all of the forum.
Give God the glory!

My friend, I very much appreciate what you say in this comment even though you and I disagree about some things. But please don't think that I'm not taking what you're saying to heart. I am.

Blessings! And, yes, give God the glory!

 

[amadeus]

@Jane_Doe22
Thank you for pouring out your heart here. I really try to see the heart of every person here with whom I consider engaging. God does see all of our hearts and sometimes He helps me in this. Sometimes, I am too involved with myself to pay attention. I believe that almost every person on here has a heart containing some good things... I try to remember that so that hopefully I can have just little bit of real understanding before I open my mouth with a yea or a nay. I wonder how many people here consider before posting the option they have to remain silent. God will help us even with that if we simply learn to lean on Him.