What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

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Harvest 1874

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This missed my point completely; I wasn't arguing what you're responding to. My point, alone, was the difference in scriptures, that's all (assuming what you had typed from whichever version of the Bible has the capitalized form for "Man" instead of lower case "man" from the KJV). Nothing to do with the meaning of it, within that verse or in the larger meaning of it all.

So what's your point then, whether capitalized or not its just how the translator translated it. Some translations capitalize it some don't. The key point is that it was the "man", the human being, Christ Jesus who gave his life as a ransom for all men, and it is to be The Christ, both Head and body complete, which will compose the great Mediator.

Just for reference I use the NKJV for daily study, for more intensive study I generally consult several other translations.
 
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Harvest 1874

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Do you not agree that even the falling away, the influencing of those easily deceived, is because satan was there to enact it (tickling ears, if you will)? It all goes back to satan, even getting some "good angels" to follow him and rebel against God, becoming "bad angels". I guess my point is, satan has affected the angelic too, not just men/"Man of Sin".

Satan is the God of this world, not only that but he has been the direct influence behind all four of the beastly kingdoms of this world and will continue to do so until one greater than he cast him out.
 
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brakelite

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You didn't answer my question: How often do you see me talking about Joseph Smith's words on here?
I haven't seen you mention him, or quote him,
At all. Which I find strange, considering the church you so staunchly defend believe the book of Mormon... Joseph Smiths own book, to be the foundation of the gospel message for the LDS church.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Satan is the God of this world, not only that but he has been the direct influence behind all four of the beastly kingdoms of this world and will continue to do so until one greater than he cast him out.
Hi, Harvest, I'm a bit troubled by the fact that you call the devil the "God" (with a capital "G") of this world. Perhaps you didn't mean to capitalize the G in this case. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm getting on to you, but just pointing this out. I believe that "God" with a capital G should be reserved God Himself and not any human or evil spirit. I'm really not meaning to start an argument with you. I think I have my hands full as far as arguments go. ;)
 

4Jesus

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So what's your point then, whether capitalized or not its just how the translator translated it. Some translations capitalize it some don't. The key point is that it was the "man", the human being, Christ Jesus who gave his life as a ransom for all men, and it is to be The Christ, both Head and body complete, which will compose the great Mediator.

Just for reference I use the NKJV for daily study, for more intensive study I generally consult several other translations.

As I said, noting "the differences in scriptures".

The larger point of that, is how this simple little thing can turn into something bigger with the right methods and ears, then boom, it means something different altogether to someone else, then there's conflict and division.

My point had nothing to do with Jesus' form as a man.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Your focus has not only been on Christ, and you were not talking about Christ when you called Lynn Wilder an ax-grinder and said that her book was junk.

When I've called you on it, you've ignored my questions and refused to provide proof of your accusations. Then you take the moral high ground and lecture me that we should be talking about Christ.
.
As I've said many times: as long as the conversation folks on an man, their sins, their works, it's going to be unproductive. God is what is edifying.

Now, do you want to talk about Christ with me?
I believe it is time to drop this unproductive thread. Going round and round serves no purpose.
Amen.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I haven't seen you mention him, or quote him,
At all. Which I find strange, considering the church you so staunchly defend believe the book of Mormon... Joseph Smiths own book, to be the foundation of the gospel message for the LDS church.
That's because Joseph Smith is not the foundation of my faith at all.

Christ is.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I am glad to hear that. That is good. From which source do you learn of Christ? The Bible or the book of Mormon?
Ultimately: God.
Sub channels include scriptures- tested by communion with God- and also prayer and experience.
 

Harvest 1874

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Hi, Harvest, I'm a bit troubled by the fact that you call the devil the "God" (with a capital "G") of this world. Perhaps you didn't mean to capitalize the G in this case. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm getting on to you, but just pointing this out. I believe that "God" with a capital G should be reserved God Himself and not any human or evil spirit. I'm really not meaning to start an argument with you. I think I have my hands full as far as arguments go. ;)

Just a slip-up when hurrying to post a reply before leaving for work this morning. You are correct it should have been a small "g".
 

amadeus

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Hi, Harvest, I'm a bit troubled by the fact that you call the devil the "God" (with a capital "G") of this world. Perhaps you didn't mean to capitalize the G in this case. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm getting on to you, but just pointing this out. I believe that "God" with a capital G should be reserved God Himself and not any human or evil spirit. I'm really not meaning to start an argument with you. I think I have my hands full as far as arguments go. ;)
It is not always meaningful in the sense of which you speak. As you may know in my regular Bible reading I read the Luther version where all nouns are always capitalized. This is regardless of whether they depict God or what grammatical role they have in a sentence. But... this is the way they still do it in German.
 

Prayer Warrior

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Ultimately: God.
Sub channels include scriptures- tested by communion with God- and also prayer and experience.

The BIBLE, and only the Bible, is God's written word, and the means that HE has chosen to reveal Himself--His truth--to mankind. It is the only "book" that is uniquely and completely HIS book. The scribes, who were charged with the duty of writing copies of the Torah, so valued God's written word that they wouldn't dare add or leave out even one "jot or tittle" as they wrote.

Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jesus Christ is the only One who has ever fulfilled every "jot and tittle" of God's written law under the Old Covenant, and He instituted a New Covenant based on His finished work on the cross that is like no other covenant that God has ever made with mankind.

This is why Paul could make this statement in Phil 3:7-11:

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
And God, who inspired the writing of His written word, has never allowed it to become corrupted. The source of this lie is none other than the "father of lies" who cast doubt on God's words in the Garden of Eden saying, "Hath God said....?"

You know how the story goes from there. Eve was deceived when the devil cast doubt on God's words. Isn't that what is happening when people say that God's written word has been corrupted? They are casting doubt on the accuracy and validity of God's word much like the devil did in the Garden. Is Almighty God not able to keep His written word from being corrupted???

Adam disobeyed God's words, and this disobedience plunged all of creation into sin and spiritual darkness.... Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone, fulfilled all the requirements of the law in order to impute God's righteousness to all who believe in Him--by grace through faith in Him, in His perfect and complete work on the cross.

Jesus Christ's work on the cross was FINISHED! NOTHING can be added or taken away! God's written word was completed, and NOTHING can be added or taken away from HIS written word! No other books qualify as God's written word. All who think and say otherwise are deceived and being used by the devil to deceive others.

And THIS TRUTH is what Lynn Wilder's book conveys, and THIS TRUTH is what this thread is about. It is my earnest prayer that those who are caught in the snares of the devil's deception will be set free because Jesus Christ came to set the captives free!




 

Jane_Doe22

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The BIBLE, and only the Bible, is God's written word, and the means that HE has chosen to reveal Himself--His truth--to mankind. It is the only "book" that is uniquely and completely HIS book. The scribes, who were charged with the duty of writing copies of the Torah, so valued God's written word that they wouldn't dare add or leave out even one "jot or tittle" as they wrote.

Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jesus Christ is the only One who has ever fulfilled every "jot and tittle" of God's written law under the Old Covenant, and He instituted a New Covenant based on His finished work on the cross that is like no other covenant that God has ever made with mankind.

This is why Paul could make this statement in Phil 3:7-11:

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
And God, who inspired the writing of His written word, has never allowed it to become corrupted. The source of this lie is none other than the "father of lies" who cast doubt on God's words in the Garden of Eden saying, "Hath God said....?"

You know how the story goes from there. Eve was deceived when the devil cast doubt on God's words. Isn't that what is happening when people say that God's written word has been corrupted? They are casting doubt on the accuracy and validity of God's word much like the devil did in the Garden. Is Almighty God not able to keep His written word from being corrupted???

Adam disobeyed God's words, and this disobedience plunged all of creation into sin and spiritual darkness.... Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone, fulfilled all the requirements of the law in order to impute God's righteousness to all who believe in Him--by grace through faith in Him, in His perfect and complete work on the cross.

Jesus Christ's work on the cross was FINISHED! NOTHING can be added or taken away! God's written word was completed, and NOTHING can be added or taken away from HIS written word! No other books qualify as God's written word. All who think and say otherwise are deceived and being used by the devil to deceive others.

And THIS TRUTH is what Lynn Wilder's book conveys, and THIS TRUTH is what this thread is about. It is my earnest prayer that those who are caught in the snares of the devil's deception will be set free because Jesus Christ came to set the captives free!




Talking about Christ, much better!
 
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Prayer Warrior

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The following excerpt is from Chapter 11 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

One of Micah’s [author’s son] last emails from the [Mormon] mission field, dated January 6, 2006, read, “I have learned that God is everything to me and He has reached to me and lifted me greatly. I could do no less than boast of His greatness, His glory, and His perfect and endless love. Christ is the One and only True King, the heir to this earth and our Master forever. In all that this world sees to be important, in all that we worship and praise, one day we will all realize that it means nothing, and only God through Christ can save our souls. I love you all so much. The time is short.”

On January 18, we received an official letter from his mission president that announced the details of the close of Micah’s mission. It stated, “Elder Wilder will be returning home after serving an honorable mission in the Florida Orlando Mission. A copy of his itinerary is enclosed.” He was scheduled to come home on February 15, 2006, at 4:09 p.m. We looked forward to his homecoming with eager anticipation.

What we didn’t know was that on this same day, about three weeks before his mission was supposed to end, Micah attended a meeting of approximately sixty missionaries. At the meeting, he was expected to bear testimony of all things Mormon that he had learned the past two years. His mission president was a distinguished, graying gentleman I’ll call President Smoot. At the point when Micah spoke, President Smoot had just reminded the missionaries that a proper Mormon testimony included:
  1. I know the church is true. [i.e. Mormon church]
  2. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
  3. I know the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on the face of the earth.
  4. I know we have a living prophet today.
  5. Jesus Christ is the Savior.
Tentatively Micah rose to his feet and took the mic. He knew well what all those ears expected to hear. But the Spirit of the living God appeared when Micah ignored the first four points of a good Mormon testimony and, very simply, professed faith in Christ Jesus alone. This packed a powerful punch.

“Jesus is all you need.” He stood a little taller and gazed at the missionaries he’d come to love. “Don’t you think that when Jesus was on the cross, that he saw your face? Don’t you think that he looked into your eyes and said, ‘I love you and I would die for you so that you could live’?” This testimony was so unusual and so tender that many were weeping.

For most of his mission, Micah had been reading the New Testament. There he found a completely different gospel than the gospel of Mormonism — a gospel of grace. He came to know a completely different Jesus than the Jesus of Mormonism.

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 160-161). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (All emphasis in bold has been added, and all words in brackets have been added to the author’s text.)
 

Willie T

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Hi, Harvest, I'm a bit troubled by the fact that you call the devil the "God" (with a capital "G") of this world. Perhaps you didn't mean to capitalize the G in this case. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm getting on to you, but just pointing this out. I believe that "God" with a capital G should be reserved God Himself and not any human or evil spirit. I'm really not meaning to start an argument with you. I think I have my hands full as far as arguments go. ;)
You're right, D, this post does not rate a grade of "E".
 

Blueberry

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Posting excerpts of Lynn Wilder's book gives us another perspective--that of someone who spent 30 years as a devout Mormon and now places her trust in the Jesus of the Bible. I consider her perspective as being very valuable for those of us trying to sift through what's what in Mormon doctrine.

People who are hoodwinked for 30 years and then write a for profit book are not my idea of unbiased reliable 'go to' experts.

Having said that, there may be no errors in exposing and refuting LDS doctrine contained in that book.

The point of even the existence of the universe is to glorify God. Anything/anybody who asserts itself against the divinity, the superiority and the all sufficiency of Christ is my sworn enemy.

My primary concern here is whether or not the, if you will, 'Mormon Christ' is sufficient unto salvation for the, as of yet, unredeemed?

Because if He is then the Holy Spirit should lead and guide during the post-conversion sanctification phase. In the same way He first convicted the individual of their sin and need for a Savior. In the same way that these people eventually found their way out. And what was the status of their salvation during the subsequent period while still deceived doctrinally?

Will not the person need to navigate all the wonderful mysteries that yet await them like Calvinist v. Arminian love talks. And Catholic v. Protestants fire side chats. Perhaps a check in the spirit that the additional Mormon 'scripture' is not correct for them? This is the "fear & trembling" part of the Christian life regardless of its actual secureness.

So can the 'Jesus of Protestants' pierce through, via the Holy Spirit, the confusion among doctrine there? I've seen people go so far as to question people's salvation over what I would consider much less controversial doctrinal differences than these.

Not to overlook error. A grave mistake.

Jesus is able to, and seems most currently active, winning and converting Muslims! How many books or eloquent arguments did they need to read before accepting Christ under the conditions that almost certain cost them their immediate family instantly and perhaps their very lives! Think that they care what color anyone's magic underwear is?! (I know that's JWs.)

As far as defectors to Islam, well, they've just taken their eyes completely off of Jesus. Rather than partially.

Eyes off Jesus = BAD!
Eyes on Jesus = GOOD!

inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale

left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot

The Lord made it so easy that a child can believe. It takes adults to mess up it so!

* We are sinners rightfully judged to Hell (already due to disbelief!). In need of Savior. Owing a debt we cannot pay.

* We believe in the atoning work of Jesus the Messiah. Who did for us what we could not. Was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified shedding His blood and rose from the dead to everlasting Life, glory and honor! Praise His holy name!

* We must confess Him before Men. On our utter dependence and reliance on Him for our salvation. And of their urgent need!

Jesus responds to HIS name to some of the most rudimentary and confused knowledge levels. If the seeker is sincere in heart and the Holy Spirit has truly convicted them then in the only name by which Man can be saved... Jesus (Yehoshua)... they can be saved.

God is able to keep them that truly belong to Him. Whether by empowering the believer to perform at a certain (somewhat vaguely defined!) level or by reckoning the believer's status in some way that He sovereignly chooses to do. Whether the fruit is required or more so just indicative, it is the direct result of, and not absent from, a genuine conversion experience.

I will not rob the Lord one iota of His full glory and honor for the Grace He bestows on us without merit.
 
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Nancy

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People who are hoodwinked for 30 years and then write a for profit book are not my idea of unbiased reliable 'go to' experts.

Having said that, there may be no errors in exposing and refuting LDS doctrine contained in that book.

The point of even the existence of the universe is to glorify God. Anything/anybody who asserts itself against the divinity, the superiority and the all sufficiency of Christ is my sworn enemy.

My primary concern here is whether or not the, if you will, 'Mormon Christ' is sufficient unto salvation for the, as of yet, unredeemed?

Because if He is then the Holy Spirit should lead and guide during the post-conversion sanctification phase. In the same way He first convicted the individual of their sin and need for a Savior. In the same way that these people eventually found their way out. And what was the status of their salvation during the subsequent period while still deceived doctrinally?

Will not the person need to navigate all the wonderful mysteries that yet await them like Calvinist v. Arminian love talks. And Catholic v. Protestants fire side chats. Perhaps a check in the spirit that the additional Mormon 'scripture' is not correct for them? This is the "fear & trembling" part of the Christian life regardless of its actual secureness.

So can the 'Jesus of Protestants' pierce through, via the Holy Spirit, the confusion among doctrine there? I've seen people go so far as to question people's salvation over what I would consider much less controversial doctrinal differences than these.

Not to overlook error. A grave mistake.

Jesus is able to, and seems most currently active, winning and converting Muslims! How many books or eloquent arguments did they need to read before accepting Christ under the conditions that almost certain cost them their immediate family instantly and perhaps their very lives! Think that they care what color anyone's magic underwear is?! (I know that's JWs.)

As far as defectors to Islam, well, they've just taken their eyes completely off of Jesus. Rather than partially.

Eyes off Jesus = BAD!
Eyes on Jesus = GOOD!

inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale

left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot

The Lord made it so easy that a child can believe. It takes adults to mess up it so!

* We are sinners rightfully judged to Hell (already due to disbelief!). In need of Savior. Owing a debt we cannot pay.

* We believe in the atoning work of Jesus the Messiah. Who did for us what we could not. Was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified shedding His blood and rose from the dead to everlasting Life, glory and honor! Praise His holy name!

* We must confess Him before Men. On our utter dependence and reliance on Him for our salvation. And of their urgent need!

Jesus responds to HIS name to some of the most rudimentary and confused knowledge levels. If the seeker is sincere in heart and the Holy Spirit has truly convicted them then in the only name by which Man can be saved... Jesus (Yehoshua)... they can be saved.

God is able to keep them that truly belong to Him. Whether by empowering the believer to perform at a certain (somewhat vaguely defined!) level or by reckoning the believer's status in some way that He sovereignly chooses to do. Whether the fruit is required or more so just indicative, it is the direct result of, and not absent from, a genuine conversion experience.

I will not rob the Lord one iota of His full glory and honor for the Grace He bestows on us without merit.


"(I know that's JWs.)" Nope, it is actually the Mormons and, I don't believe they call it "magic underwear" lol.
 

Jane_Doe22

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People who are hoodwinked for 30 years and then write a for profit book are not my idea of unbiased reliable 'go to' experts.

Having said that, there may be no errors in exposing and refuting LDS doctrine contained in that book.

The point of even the existence of the universe is to glorify God. Anything/anybody who asserts itself against the divinity, the superiority and the all sufficiency of Christ is my sworn enemy.

My primary concern here is whether or not the, if you will, 'Mormon Christ' is sufficient unto salvation for the, as of yet, unredeemed?

Because if He is then the Holy Spirit should lead and guide during the post-conversion sanctification phase. In the same way He first convicted the individual of their sin and need for a Savior. In the same way that these people eventually found their way out. And what was the status of their salvation during the subsequent period while still deceived doctrinally?

Will not the person need to navigate all the wonderful mysteries that yet await them like Calvinist v. Arminian love talks. And Catholic v. Protestants fire side chats. Perhaps a check in the spirit that the additional Mormon 'scripture' is not correct for them? This is the "fear & trembling" part of the Christian life regardless of its actual secureness.

So can the 'Jesus of Protestants' pierce through, via the Holy Spirit, the confusion among doctrine there? I've seen people go so far as to question people's salvation over what I would consider much less controversial doctrinal differences than these.

Not to overlook error. A grave mistake.

Jesus is able to, and seems most currently active, winning and converting Muslims! How many books or eloquent arguments did they need to read before accepting Christ under the conditions that almost certain cost them their immediate family instantly and perhaps their very lives! Think that they care what color anyone's magic underwear is?! (I know that's JWs.)

As far as defectors to Islam, well, they've just taken their eyes completely off of Jesus. Rather than partially.

Eyes off Jesus = BAD!
Eyes on Jesus = GOOD!

inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale

left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot

The Lord made it so easy that a child can believe. It takes adults to mess up it so!

* We are sinners rightfully judged to Hell (already due to disbelief!). In need of Savior. Owing a debt we cannot pay.

* We believe in the atoning work of Jesus the Messiah. Who did for us what we could not. Was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified shedding His blood and rose from the dead to everlasting Life, glory and honor! Praise His hole name!

* We must confess Him before Men. On our utter dependence and reliance on Him for our salvation. And of their urgent need!

Jesus responds to HIS name to some of the most rudimentary and confused knowledge levels. If the seeker is sincere in heart and the Holy Spirit has truly convicted them then in the only name by which Man can be saved... Jesus (Yehoshua)... they can be saved.

God is able to keep them that truly belong to Him. Whether by empowering the believer to perform at a certain (somewhat vaguely defined!) level or by reckoning the believer's status in some way that He sovereignly chooses to do. Whether the fruit is required or more so just indicative, it is the direct result of, and not absent from, a genuine conversion experience.

I will not rob the Lord one iota of His full glory and honor for the Grace He bestows on us without merit.
There's only one Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God.

LDS Christians do indeed believe that we are saved through Christ and His gift. You're never going to get to salvation by yourself. Christ does the Saving. But Christ didn't suffer and die to that His disciples could stay kissing Stan's feet full-time. Rather He asks us to follow Him and His ways because we love Him, and we should do that-- and are empowered to do so by Hm. "Cheap grace" isn't Christ's grace.

Evangelical Christians and LDS Christians are very similar in that regard. Despite the rampant myths, neither groups believe that we get to salvation by ourselves or in cheap grace. Both believe that it's Christ that saves and we should strive to follow Him.
 

Giuliano

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Lynn Wilder is a person drastically skewing things in that book. Similar folks are a dime a dozen, coming from every conceivable group.

Sorry, O would really like to move beyond stating that about a person who isn't even here, and instead talk about Christ and what is actually believed. But people keep going back to Wilder's skew story, so I keep having to point out it's many flaws.
I think it would make more sense to discuss the official writings of the LDS. Look at them to find out what the LDS believe. What an "ex-Mormon" has to say doesn't interest me.
 

Enoch111

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Hi, Harvest, I'm a bit troubled by the fact that you call the devil the "God" (with a capital "G") of this world.
Correct. We use capital G for God and small g for false gods (including the god of this world). Even though this is an established fact, the New World Translation of the JWs makes Jesus (the Word) into a small g "god".

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god (John 1:1) (New World Translation)

How in the world can Jesus be "a god" without implying that He is a false god? Then they try to cover up their blunder with a footnote which says "Or was divine". But they do not believe that Jesus is God, so they are simply fooling the reader. If Jesus is divine, then He is God. But if Jesus is a false god then He is "a god".

However, since this thread is about Mormonism, their Jesus is also different from the biblical Jesus -- sometimes He is a created being, and at other times He is God.

JESUS IS GOD
Christ was God before the earth existed. Christ is an eternal being. Through Him, God the Father created worlds without number. Nothing was created, except through Christ. In Mormon doctrine, the pre-mortal Christ is called “Jehovah.” When God speaks in the Old Testament, it is Jehovah that was speaking. In the Bible, to avoid using His name too often, and out of reverence, the word LORD is substituted. Mormon doctrine holds that all people have existed eternally as individual “intelligences,” and then that God the Father created us spiritually, before we came to earth.

JESUS IN NOT GOD
"The Plan of Salvation teaches that God the Father is the father of our spirits, and that as spirits, we lived with Him before we were born with physical bodies into mortal life on earth, making us spiritually brothers and sisters to all who live on this earth. Christ’s was the first spirit organized by the Father. This could have happened eons and eons ago, since the Father has created “worlds without number” through the Word, who is Christ. (See Moses 1:33.)"

And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. (Book of Moses, 1:6)

Who is Jesus Christ?