What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Prayer Warrior]

You underestimate me, you underestimate me greatly. Do you think that my only interest in this thread is defending Jane and Mormonism?

I could ask you the same question, GH. Do you think that my only interest is in exposing the lies of Mormonism??

Why don't you clue me in on your agenda?

Edit: At least you're admitting now that you are defending Mormonism. That's good to know.

 

[Grailhunter]

I could ask you the same question, GH. Do you think that my only interest is in exposing the lies of Mormonism??

Why don't you clue me in on your agenda?

Edit: At least you're admitting now that you are defending Mormonism. That's good to know.

I have, I love Christians. And I seek the truth.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I have, I love Christians. And I seek the truth.

I love Christians, and I love the truth! And I love the lost!

Tell me how tearing down God's Word is seeking the truth?

 

[Grailhunter]

I have, I love Christians. And I seek the truth.

I love Christians, and I love the truth! And I love the lost!

Tell me how tearing down God's Word is seeking the truth?

"The Word of God" I defend. Those that have changed it, I oppose.

 

[Giuliano]

In light of what you say here, how do you explain this?

Numbers 15:32-36--And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

First of all, he was not doing that to save a life. He had opportunity to gather sticks before, kindle a fire and let it provide heat during the Sabbath without kindling a fire.

Secondly he did it openly in front of several people. That showed contempt for the law and probably would have encouraged others to view the law with contempt. That would have been encouraging others to imitate him, so it was an offense the whole congregation. Thus it was their duty to stone him.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

"The Word of God" I defend. Those that have changed it, I oppose.

You have to differentiate between substantive and other kinds of changes. I don't see you doing this.

In my Bible, the HCSB, they use the name Messiah for Christ in some cases in the NT. This is not a substantive change because the meaning of the two words is the same.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

First of all, he was not doing that to save a life. He had opportunity to gather sticks before, kindle a fire and let it provide heat during the Sabbath without kindling a fire.

Secondly he did it openly in front of several people. That showed contempt for the law and probably would have encouraged others to view the law with contempt. That would have been encouraging others to imitate him, so it was an offense the whole congregation. Thus it was their duty to stone him.

The point is that he broke the Mosaic law and was executed without mercy as the law demanded.

 

[Grailhunter]

I could ask you the same question, GH. Do you think that my only interest is in exposing the lies of Mormonism??

Why don't you clue me in on your agenda?

Edit: At least you're admitting now that you are defending Mormonism. That's good to know.

I will stand and defend the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, Mormons, the Moravian Church. But still I will point out the errors in the Bible. Truth is important. How many people here do not know the importance of Baptism or Communion. How many people think that repentance comes before being saved. How many have been deceived with the oneness concepts of the Trinity. etc..

 

[Grailhunter]

You have to differentiate between substantive and other kinds of changes. I don't see you doing this.

In my Bible, the HCSB, they use the name Messiah for Christ in some cases in the NT. This is not a substantive change because the meaning of the two words is the same.

Christ comes from the Greek....Messiah comes from the Hebrew. Which is correct. How many think that that Christ is Yeshua s last name. Jesus Christ. Truth is important

 

[Giuliano]

What?? Okay, not you have me chuckling. What do you mean?

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The written Torah was given to Israel for them to read after they did not want to hear the Voice of God themselves. We should not need books to know about God; and the only reason we do is because our hearts are not completely pure. David wrote of Israel's rejection of the Voice of God urging Israel in his day to hear it.

Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

Books are intermediaries just as priests are. They serve a purpose when we need them, but we also need to progress so we no longer need them. The heart must be made purer.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I will stand and defend the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, Mormons, the Moravian Church. But still I will point out the errors in the Bible. Truth is important. How many people here do not know the importance of Baptism or Communion. How many people think that repentance comes before being saved. How many have been deceived with the oneness concepts of the Trinity. etc..

Hey, I've defended Mormons as people, but I will not defend Mormon doctrine where it strays from Bible truth. And some of their most basic doctrines contradict what God says in His Word, as we have seen in this thread.

Will you defend these blatantly unbiblical doctrines? Will you defend the requirement for Mormons to tithe in order to get a temple recommend and participate in the endowment ceremonies, which are blatantly unbiblical?? Will you defend the crushing burden that is placed on the backs of Mormons to perform in order to becomes gods/Gods, which is all a blatant lie?? Will you defend these lies??

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Christ comes from the Greek....Messiah comes from the Hebrew. Which is correct. How many think that that Christ is Yeshua s last name. Jesus Christ. Truth is important

I know this, and you know I know this.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The written Torah was given to Israel for them to read after they did not want to hear the Voice of God themselves. We should not need books to know about God; and the only reason we do is because our hearts are not completely pure. David wrote of Israel's rejection of the Voice of God urging Israel in his day to hear it.

We only need one Book!

Books are intermediaries just as priests are. They serve a purpose when we need them, but we also need to progress so we no longer need them. The heart must be made purer.

You cannot compare the Bible to priests. They have different functions altogether. God used both in the OT. In the NT, Jesus is our High Priest.... But we still need His written Word.

Think of the Bereans. They compared everything they heard Paul teach to God's written Word, and we are to do the same. Not having God's written Word would be like building a house without an accurate measuring device. We would be off on every part of the house. I know, not a perfect analogy, but try to imagine it.

 

[Giuliano]

The point is that he broke the Mosaic law and was executed without mercy as the law demanded.

Go back and read the post about when it is permissible -- or even required -- to break the laws of Moses. Those laws were not given to be interpreted legalistically. They were given as general rules that made sense most of the time. The purpose (expressed in the Torah itself) was to preserve life. They should not be interpreted in a hateful way then. You seem to be thinking the way so many Jews did when they criticized Jesus -- by the "letter" of the law instead of the "spirit".

And I repeat, he could have collected sticks more discretely. He wouldn't have been condemned to death if he had done it secretly since there had to be witnesses to put anyone to death. He had no excuse for it, and there were witnesses.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hey, I've defended Mormons as people, but I will not defend Mormon doctrine where it strays from Bible truth. And some of their most basic doctrines contradict what God says in His Word, as we have seen in this thread.

Will you defend these blatantly unbiblical doctrines? Will you defend the requirement for Mormons to tithe in order to get a temple recommend and participate in the endowment ceremonies, which are blatantly unbiblical?? Will you defend the crushing burden that is placed on the backs of Mormons to perform in order to becomes gods/Gods, which is all a blatant lie?? Will you defend these lies??

I will not defend Mormon doctrine where it strays from Bible truth.
What about the men that have changed your Bible?

The Mormons have beliefs that are different than yours. It is not a surprise that you do not agree. That is one thing and I understand why you would not agree. And if they were trying to make you believe what they believe, I would be standing with you. If I were a person that focused on the Bible only, I would be concerned about the people that changed it. The Catholic Church for years thought they an monopoly on salvation. The Protestants stand up 1500 years after Christ and say they know the truth, but cannot agree. Why not seek the truth. How many denominations based on one book. If it was a book of traffic laws it would not be safe to drive on the streets. Every one would have a different interpretation of the Law. Seek the truth first.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Go back and read the post about when it is permissible -- or even required -- to break the laws of Moses. Those laws were not given to be interpreted legalistically. They were given as general rules that made sense most of the time. The purpose (expressed in the Torah itself) was to preserve life. They should not be interpreted in a hateful way then. You seem to be thinking the way so many Jews did when they criticized Jesus -- by the "letter" of the law instead of the "spirit".

You and I see the Mosaic law very differently. It is the letter of the Mosaic law that kills! The law is harsh. Disobedience brings death.

This is why "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death."

 

[Giuliano]

We only need one Book!



You cannot compare the Bible to priests. They have different functions altogether. God used both in the OT. In the NT, Jesus is our High Priest.... But we still need His written Word.

If you still need a book, you're admitting the Holy Spirit is not guiding you in all things. If you have the "Living Word", you no longer need the "written Word." We should have it written in our hearts.

Think of the Bereans. They compared everything they heard Paul teach to God's written Word, and we are to do the same. Not having God's written Word would be like building a house without an accurate measuring device. We would be off on every part of the house. I know, not a perfect analogy, but try to imagine it.

They were not perfect and they knew it. They had already read the Old Testament and still not found the truth. Got that? When someone "said something," they wondered if it could be true. Could it? It sounded good, but could it be true? They then searched the Scriptures to see if it could be. If what the Scriptures contradicted what they had heard, they wouldn't have believed it.

Faith comes by hearing, not by reading. Similarly the eunuch could not understand the prophecy of Isaiah just by reading it. He understood it when Philip explained it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I will not defend Mormon doctrine where it strays from Bible truth.
What about the men that have changed your Bible?

The Mormons have beliefs that are different than yours. It not a surprise that you do not agree. That is one thing and I understand why you would not agree. And if they were trying to make you believe what they believe, I would be standing with you. If I were a person that focused on the Bible only, I would be concerned about the people that changed it. The Catholic Church for years thought they an monopoly on salvation. The Protestants stand up 1500 years after Christ and say they know the truth, but cannot agree. Why not seek the truth. How many denominations based on one book. If it was a book of traffic laws it would not be safe to drive on the streets. Every one would have a different interpretation of the Law. Seek the truth first.

I already addressed the changes made in legitimate translations! I do speak out against bad translations/paraphrases! I've spoken out quite a bit about The Message paraphrase and one big problem I have with this book.

 

[Grailhunter]

I know this, and you know I know this.

Some people believe there is power in the names of God the Father and God the Son.
Some people believe that there is power in the sound of their names.
What happens to the Bible when those names are removed?
Who would want those names removed?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

If you still need a book, you're admitting the Holy Spirit is not guiding you in all things. If you have the "Living Word", you no longer need the "written Word." We should have it written in our hearts.

The Holy Spirit guides me into all truth as I read and study His Word, as I hear sermons based on His Word....

They were not perfect and they knew it. They had already read the Old Testament and still not found the truth. Got that? When someone "said something," they wondered if it could be true. Could it? It sounded good, but could it be true? They then searched the Scriptures to see if it could be. If what the Scriptures contradicted what they had heard, they wouldn't have believed it.

Faith comes by hearing, not by reading. Similarly the eunuch could not understand the prophecy of Isaiah just by reading it. He understood it when Philip explained it.

So, what are you saying? That Christians don't need the Bible??
.

 

[Giuliano]

You and I see the Mosaic law very differently. It is the letter of the Mosaic law that kills! The law is harsh. Disobedience brings death.

Was the law harsh? It may look that way to you if you adopt a naive legalistic view; but that was always the wrong way to look at it. That is why they had courts and not mob justice.

It is not harsh when properly understood.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

Saying it was harsh means you don't understand the "love" behind the various commandments and why they were given.