What Need I of Grace?

[justbyfaith]

We must understand that we are forgiven of all of our sins (sin will not be imputed to us, Romans 4:8) through the blood of Christ (and that therefore our relationship to the law has changed); and that this is the key to having victory over sin in the practical sense; if we want it.

If we don't want it: and are merely using the gospel as a kind of fire insurance; in that case I have doubt as to whether it will most assuredly act as the fire insurance that these people are seeing it for.

 

[Renniks]

Brother you are free.

Well if you believe I have to be sinless to be saved, how can you call me brother? I don't think you really believe that.
You are most likely a product of a Wesley influenced church, and Wesley was reformed Protestant, in spite of disagreeing with some reformed doctrine. So, you are indirectly a product of the reformation too.
I also think the Pentecostals and others probably misunderstood his Christian perfection belief, that is, some took it further than he did.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We are no longer under the law of the Old Testament (Romans 6:14); but this is not lawlessness: because we are ruled by the law of faith (Romans 3:27).

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).

Sin worked through the law of the Old Testament to bring about all manner of concupiscence (Romans 7:5,8 (kjv)).

Rom 7:5, For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:8, But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The only way to deal with this problem is to be delivered from the law (Romans 7:6 (kjv)).

Rom 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Yes, I thought I sensed that we were on the same page. Do you, or are there still things we disagree on?

What do you think Romans 8:29 means? I believe it means that Jesus was the first of many brethren to be sinless, even though perfection/glorification is a process from there on. 2 Peter 1:2-11; 1 John 3:21-24

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well if you believe I have to be sinless to be saved, how can you call me brother? I don't think you really believe that.
You are most likely a product of a Wesley influenced church, and Wesley was reformed Protestant, in spite of disagreeing with some reformed doctrine. So, you are indirectly a product of the reformation too.
I also think the Pentecostals and others probably misunderstood his Christian perfection belief, that is, some took it further than he did.

I want to call you brother, but only you know the truth. Do you remember when you were filled with the Holy Spirit? I'm not asking when you were baptized, but when your nature literally changed from wanting to sin, to having power over sin to the level you had knowledge of sin? Philippians 3:16. Personally, I was in the Church for 30 years before being filled with the Spirit. I have also been baptized three times during the first 23 years. But then after I truly repented and was overcome by the Spirit and filled to overflowing, He lead me to be baptized for the first time that it actually counted.

I want to show you something about the Reformation. Not everyone coming out of the Reformation was dead in their doctrine. The difference was holiness. I know that the false doctrine of grace that the blood of Jesus covers your sin so the Father doesn't see you still committing sin, is very popular, but that is not the freedom from sin that Jesus promised in John 8:32-36; Romans 6:1-2, Romans 8:1-9

Revelation 3:
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Martin Luther, John Calvin) 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. (John Wesley, Count Nicolaus Zinzendorf, Jacob Arminius) 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’


I am actually Born again, Spirit-filled and gifted. I just call myself Charismatic, because no denomination I know of believes everything I do. The closest one I found is in Texas, but it is only one church. Someone who heard my teachings told me about it. And they were right. We both got our doctrine from the Source and know it. Interestingly, even though we both thought we were alone in our individual beliefs - they are the same. And we prayed the same prayer. "Father I'm throwing away every denominational teaching and just want Your meaning to every verse. I will only teach what You first teach me." I don't know about him, but my knowledge exploded!

 

[justbyfaith]

I know that the false doctrine of grace that the blood of Jesus covers your sin so the Father doesn't see you still committing sin, is very popular,

It is also not a false doctrine, see Romans 4:7-8.

Which is not to say that the Lord doesn't also regenerate true believers so that our lives our changed into lives of holiness (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:3-7).

It is simply to say that if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

It is to say that you're not down for the count if you should blow it on one or more occasion(s).

 

[HARK!]

How can I break a law that I'm not subject to?

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

 

[justbyfaith]

Righteous can also be defined as right standing and relationship with God.

Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[HARK!]

Righteous can also be defined as right standing and relationship with God.

Here's what YHWH says:

Deuteronomy 6:25

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

What's your source?

 

[HARK!]

It is also not a false doctrine, see Romans 4:7-8.

How does this disprove CharismaticLady's assertion?

 

[justbyfaith]

Here's what YHWH says:

Deuteronomy 6:25

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

What's your source?

According as I also am of Christ

 

[justbyfaith]

How does this disprove CharismaticLady's assertion?

The blood of Jesus does cover our sin according to that passage.

 

[Renniks]

I want to call you brother, but only you know the truth. Do you remember when you were filled with the Holy Spirit? I'm not asking when you were baptized, but when your nature literally changed from wanting to sin, to having power over sin to the level you had knowledge of sin? Philippians 3:16. Personally, I was in the Church for 30 years before being filled with the Spirit. I have also been baptized three times during the first 23 years. But then after I truly repented and was overcome by the Spirit and filled to overflowing, He lead me to be baptized for the first time that it actually counted.

I want to show you something about the Reformation. Not everyone coming out of the Reformation was dead in their doctrine. The difference was holiness. I know that the false doctrine of grace that the blood of Jesus covers your sin so the Father doesn't see you still committing sin, is very popular, but that is not the freedom from sin that Jesus promised in John 8:32-36; Romans 6:1-2, Romans 8:1-9

Revelation 3:
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (Martin Luther, John Calvin) 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. (John Wesley, Count Nicolaus Zinzendorf, Jacob Arminius) 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’


I am actually Born again, Spirit-filled and gifted. I just call myself Charismatic, because no denomination I know of believes everything I do. The closest one I found is in Texas, but it is only one church. Someone who heard my teachings told me about it. And they were right. We both got our doctrine from the Source and know it. Interestingly, even though we both thought we were alone in our individual beliefs - they are the same. And we prayed the same prayer. "Father I'm throwing away every denominational teaching and just want Your meaning to every verse. I will only teach what You first teach me." I don't know about him, but my knowledge exploded!

I grew up in the Holy rollers type of church. I'm not knocking them, but none of those who claim to be filled by the Spirit are sinless. They do tend to be less honest about thier sins. I'm not concerned about denominations either.
I have no reason to judge whether Luther was a real Christian or not, but I believe he was.
We are known by our love and that transcends denominations.
I have no interest in debating which of us is more Holy.
If you believe one must be without sin to be a brother, I'm not there and neither is any Christian. Even my mom, honestly one of the most truly loving and devout people in the world, was not sinless. Only Jesus. That's why we rely on him, not our supposed goodness.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is also not a false doctrine, see Romans 4:7-8.

Brother, that is from the Old Testament where the blood of bulls and goats merely "covered" the sins of the people, while the sins remained underneath. But they were forgiven. They remained until Jesus came and took them all away, 1 John 3:5, which He does for us too who believe in the Messiah, who puts an end to transgression and sin, and brings in everlasting righteousness. Daniel 9:24.

Watch out standing on verses out of context of a whole teaching. You are using Romans 4 which is in the middle and is written to set up for the conclusion. The 8-chapter teaching from chapter one through eight is on sin and the Law, and the conclusion is Romans 8. Romans 7:14-23 is what it is like for those with the sin nature trying to keep the Law in their own strength, the Old Covenant. Chapter 8 is the New Covenant, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which frees me from the law of sin and death (the Law).

I know you want to fight me on this, but open your heart and just ask the Father what is true. But first read His Word in context in one sitting.

Which is not to say that the Lord doesn't also regenerate true believers so that our lives our changed into lives of holiness (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:3-7).

YES!!! This is what true grace does, which is the divine power of God 2 Peter 1:2-11. Do you get it now? Holiness!!! Not a covering of present and future sin.

It is simply to say that if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

It is to say that you're not down for the count if you should blow it on one or more occasion(s).

Yes, He does act as our Advocate while we are walking in the Spirit. Examine 1 John 1:7 the verse that describes a Christian (not 1 John 1:8 that does NOT!). This person in vs. 7 is walking in the Spirit, has fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus is forgiving us of all sins (as our Advocate). Jesus is NOT our Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3:4-24. Those are sins unto death 1 John 5:16-17; Numbers 15:36

 

[Renniks]

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

Good thing it's not our righteousness that matters.
Being in Christ is definitely being more righteous than the Pharisees were.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I grew up in the Holy rollers type of church. I'm not knocking them, but none of those who claim to be filled by the Spirit are sinless. They do tend to be less honest about thier sins. I'm not concerned about denominations either.
I have no reason to judge whether Luther was a real Christian or not, but I believe he was.
We are known by our love and that transcends denominations.
I have no interest in debating which of us is more Holy.
If you believe one must be without sin to be a brother, I'm not there and neither is any Christian. Even my mom, honestly one of the most truly loving and devout people in the world, was not sinless. Only Jesus. That's why we rely on him, not our supposed goodness.

Jesus was the first to be sinless, not the last. That is why He came! Romans 8:29. Daniel 9:24

Look at Romans 6. Fact: We are dead to sin. Mind: We must tell ourselves the truth which sets us free. Paul said we must also reckon ourselves dead to sin.

If you keep trying to make your false doctrine true that you will always sin - guess what? You WILL!

 

[justbyfaith]

Brother, that is from the Old Testament

It is written in the new and is there to produce New Testament doctrine.

Yes, He does act as our Advocate while we are walking in the Spirit.

You have said that we are sinless when we are walking in the Spirit. If that is the case, He would not need to be our advocate.

Look at Romans 6. Fact: We are dead to sin. Mind: We must tell ourselves the truth which sets us free. Paul said we must also reckon ourselves dead to sin.

Rom 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

In what sense did He die unto sin once?

Consider:

2Co 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now,

Rom 6:11, Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Likewise means in the same manner. Jesus died unto sin in that He became sin for us; we are to consider ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin in the same manner.

That is, we are to count ourselves to be utterly sinful. That is the "unto sin" part.

Now the "dead" part:

Rom 6:7, For he that is dead is freed from sin.

While we are utterly sinful in our flesh, we are also dead to that sin so that we are set free from its power. Our flesh is dead, although utterly sinful.

Get it?

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is written in the new and is there to produce New Testament doctrine.

It is an example in the Mosaic law. This is mostly about the Old Covenant, until the end.

You have said that we are sinless when we are walking in the Spirit. If that is the case, He would not need to be our advocate.

It is because of trespasses, and not willful sins of lawlessness. Unlike sins of lawlessness which are sins unto death; trespasses are sin NOT unto death. They are the type of sin mentioned in the Lord's Prayer and the next verse after it.

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Rom 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

In what sense did He die unto sin once?

Consider:

2Co 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now,

Rom 6:11, Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Likewise means in the same manner. Jesus died unto sin in that He became sin for us; we are to consider ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin in the same manner.

That is, we are to count ourselves to be utterly sinful. That is the "unto sin" part.

Now the "dead" part:

Rom 6:7, For he that is dead is freed from sin.

While we are utterly sinful in our flesh, we are also dead to that sin so that we are set free from its power. Our flesh is dead, although utterly sinful.

Get it?

Get it? I understand the verses, but don't actually know how you are interpreting them. How does this play out in your life? Give me a synopsis.

 

[justbyfaith]

Get it? I understand the verses, but don't actually know how you are interpreting them. How does this play out in your life? Give me a synopsis.

It plays out in that when people say, "I am a sinner saved by grace," I do not interpret that, in my own life, to mean that I must inevitably sin. That I am a sinner means that I have sin and am utterly sinful in my flesh; while in the practical realm, the fact that I am dead to that sin means that I am set free from its power.

I have had a problem with the lust of the flesh in times past. In more recent days it is dealt with in that I am married and in that the marriage bed is undefiled. But I don't know what I would do if I lost my wife; I would probably end up self-indulging after a short season. Because that is one area in which I am very weak. It even becomes compelling after abstaining for about a week or two.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It plays out in that when people say, "I am a sinner saved by grace," I do not interpret that, in my own life, to mean that I must inevitably sin. That I am a sinner means that I have sin and am utterly sinful in my flesh; while in the practical realm, the fact that I am dead to that sin means that I am set free from its power.

I have had a problem with the lust of the flesh in times past. In more recent days it is dealt with in that I am married and in that the marriage bed is undefiled. But I don't know what I would do if I lost my wife; I would probably end up self-indulging after a short season. Because that is one area in which I am very weak. It even becomes compelling after abstaining for about a week or two.

What does "set free of its power" mean to you?

BTW, did you know that God doesn't call His children sinners? He calls them children of God. 1 John 3:1

 

[justbyfaith]

What does "set free of its power" mean to you?

BTW, did you know that God doesn't call His children sinners? He calls them children of God. 1 John 3:1

I believe that Jesus was speaking to all of us when He spoke the following:

Mat 7:11, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luk 11:13, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

For this is even in conjunction with other testimony in scripture, such as:

Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God;