What the Little Sisters of the Poor Case Could Mean for Religious Liberty

[River Jordan]

I would have thought there would be a cruelty to animals law that would kick in. Maybe I should have said "dog" instead of "goat"..or, hey...."alpaca"...

I guess you'd have to look into local laws on that.

I read something several years ago about a family being told in McDonalds that they were to keep their religion to themselves.

I can't really do much with something that vague.

Do they absolutely have to hire non-Catholics? I can't understand why a non-Catholic would want to work in a Catholic facility. There are bound to be some clashes.

But also as we've seen, the vast, vast majority (98%) of US Catholic women who are sexually active use contraception. And I guess not everyone has qualms about working for or with Christians from other denominations like you do.

They obviously feel very strongly about this.
It just seems wrong to me that businesses can be forced to provide these services to their employees.

I don't know how many times I can keep repeating this......they're not being forced to provide anything. All they're being asked to do is fill out an exemption form. That's it.

Tell me, River...is there anything that you have strong beliefs about?

Yes.

And it is wrong. All the time.

Really? So every taxpayer should itemize exactly where they want their tax money to go? And do you extend this consideration to all Americans? Pagans? Satanists? Muslims?

 

[River Jordan]

What I would like to know, is why there is anybody working for these organizations that believes in birth control?

As I showed before, the data indicates that up to 98% of US Catholic women who are sexually active use contraception.

Wouldn't that be rather contradictory? Are there really people that work for pro-life that believe in contraception?

?????????? How is contraception antithetical to pro-life?

 

[StanJ]

As I showed before, the data indicates that up to 98% of US Catholic women who are sexually active use contraception.

?????????? How is contraception antithetical to pro-life?

I said for those that work for these organizations, not all Catholic women in America.

Yes it would be antithetical if pro-life doesn't agree with contraception.

 

[River Jordan]

I said for those that work for these organizations, not all Catholic women in America.

Yes it would be antithetical if pro-life doesn't agree with contraception.

I guess I'm not understanding your point. You seemed puzzled at the prospect of someone working for a pro-life organization while also using contraception, so I'm wondering why you see those two as being necessarily linked, i.e., where if one is pro-life, they must also be anti-contraception.

 

[StanJ]

I guess I'm not understanding your point. You seemed puzzled at the prospect of someone working for a pro-life organization while also using contraception, so I'm wondering why you see those two as being necessarily linked, i.e., where if one is pro-life, they must also be anti-contraception.

Then I suggest you learn the working definition of pro-life and exactly what the organization itself stands for. Let me clarify things for you. I seen me because I'm not really sure you want anything to be clarified.

 

[River Jordan]

Then I suggest you learn the working definition of pro-life and exactly what the organization itself stands for.

Which pro-life organization? There are several.

Let me clarify things for you. I seen me because I'm not really sure you want anything to be clarified.

Word recognition letting you down again?

 

[Barrd]

I guess you'd have to look into local laws on that.

Well, since I'm not planning on sacrificing a goat this year, I don't think I will worry about it.

I can't really do much with something that vague.

Right.

But also as we've seen, the vast, vast majority (98%) of US Catholic women who are sexually active use contraception. And I guess not everyone has qualms about working for or with Christians from other denominations like you do.

Again, neither you nor I have any right to judge those women. The fact is that they are violating their own beliefs...which, I would say, is their problem.
What we are discussing is The Little Sisters of the Poor. Now, if you can show me documented evidence that these gals are sexually active and using contraceptives, then you have a point. Can you?
And when did I say that I had such qualms? I seriously would not want to work for an organization, religious or otherwise, that supports abortion...no matter what denomination they are...

I don't know how many times I can keep repeating this......they're not being forced to provide anything. All they're being asked to do is fill out an exemption form. That's it.

And that form would provide their workers with contraceptives. Which, for them, is the point.
There are two sides to every story, River...nobody is saying you must agree with the Sisters. Only that you should try to understand their objection.

Yes.

I'm guessing that you would not like it very much if our glorious government were to decide that, for whatever reason, you must violate some dearly held belief.

Really? So every taxpayer should itemize exactly where they want their tax money to go? And do you extend this consideration to all Americans? Pagans? Satanists? Muslims?

This isn't about tax money. Our tax money goes to the government. We have given to Ceasar what is Ceasar's....what Ceasar does with it is on him.
As a religious organization, the Sisters are exempt from taxes.
What you don't get is that, here, the government is, once more, asking for what belongs to God.

You know, River, as ludicrous as it seems, there are an awful lot of Christians who are very much against your science.
I know, I know...but they are out there, all the same.
It is not completely impossible that, one day, the tide might turn against you, and you just might have to accept Creationism.
We actually have someone on CB who believes in a flat earth. Silly? Yes. But they are out there, River...

Suppose the day comes, River? Will you quietly violate your own beliefs because Big Brother tells you to?

 

[StanJ]

Which pro-life organization? There are several.

Word recognition letting you down again?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_pro-life_movement

I swear sometimes Google Voice changes what I say after I read it. Oh well, it escapes me now what my train of thought was.

 

[River Jordan]

Again, neither you nor I have any right to judge those women.

Do we have a right to judge any of the women involved in this case?

The fact is that they are violating their own beliefs...which, I would say, is their problem.

It's also a problem for their employees, hence the court case.

What we are discussing is The Little Sisters of the Poor. Now, if you can show me documented evidence that these gals are sexually active and using contraceptives, then you have a point. Can you?

Sorry, I don't understand your point here.

And when did I say that I had such qualms?

You said you can't understand why non-Catholics would work for a Catholic employer. I merely pointed out that not everyone has such qualms about working for Christians from other denominations.

And that form would provide their workers with contraceptives. Which, for them, is the point.
There are two sides to every story, River...nobody is saying you must agree with the Sisters. Only that you should try to understand their objection.

I understand their objection; I just don't think it's valid. I find it hard to believe that filling out a form constitutes an "undue burden" on their ability to practice their religion.

I'm guessing that you would not like it very much if our glorious government were to decide that, for whatever reason, you must violate some dearly held belief.

Probably not. But I have to do things I don't like all the time....we all do.

This isn't about tax money. Our tax money goes to the government. We have given to Ceasar what is Ceasar's....what Ceasar does with it is on him.
As a religious organization, the Sisters are exempt from taxes.

It's the same concept of government laws and regulations making people violate their beliefs.

What you don't get is that, here, the government is, once more, asking for what belongs to God.

How so?

You know, River, as ludicrous as it seems, there are an awful lot of Christians who are very much against your science.
I know, I know...but they are out there, all the same.
It is not completely impossible that, one day, the tide might turn against you, and you just might have to accept Creationism.
We actually have someone on CB who believes in a flat earth. Silly? Yes. But they are out there, River...

Um.....not sure how that relates to the topic here. :unsure:

Suppose the day comes, River? Will you quietly violate your own beliefs because Big Brother tells you to?

Is that how you think science works? You think we all work from the framework that the federal government tells us to use? :blink: Really?

 

[River Jordan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_pro-life_movement

Yeah, that isn't at all helpful. You seemed to be claiming that pro-life = anti-contraception. Is that your position?

 

[StanJ]

Yeah, that isn't at all helpful. You seemed to be claiming that pro-life = anti-contraception. Is that your position?

For someone that claims to be so educated, you sure do not want to accept any educational material that is contrary to your point of view? Make your own conclusions, because that's what you're going to do anyhow.

 

[River Jordan]

Thanks for your input Stan.

 

[StanJ]

Thanks for your input Stan.

Always more than happy to set the record straight.

 

[Barrd]

Do we have a right to judge any of the women involved in this case?

No, we do not.

It's also a problem for their employees, hence the court case.

Not unless they are planning on using their health insurance to buy birth control. Who does that, anyway?

Sorry, I don't understand your point here.

You keep telling me about all the Catholic women who use contraceptives. I'm telling you that, if they are doing so, they are doing it against their own faith, but that is their problem.
The Sisters, otoh, are being held up here because, Lord bless them, they are trying to be true to their faith.

You said you can't understand why non-Catholics would work for a Catholic employer. I merely pointed out that not everyone has such qualms about working for Christians from other denominations.

How many SDAs know, for instance, that their hospitals provide abortions? Now, believing as I do that abortion is murder, should Iapply to be a nurse at one of their hospitals?

I understand their objection; I just don't think it's valid. I find it hard to believe that filling out a form constitutes an "undue burden" on their ability to practice their religion.

They obviously disagree with you.

Probably not. But I have to do things I don't like all the time....we all do.

I didn't like getting up before sunrise to wake up a bunch of kids who also didn't want to get up that early, and get them ready for school...but I did it.
I didn't like paying for a place to park my truck, but if I wanted to be sure I'd have a safe place for it while I worked, I didn't have much choice, so I did it.
I'm sure we all do all sorts of things we don't like, all the time.

That isn't the same thing as being forced to do something that our faith considers a sin. By golly, I am NOT going to sin against my Lord and my God just because Big Brother tells me to. My faith is a bit stronger than that...I will survive the fine, or the jail time, but going to hell for eternity is a much deeper issue.

It's the same concept of government laws and regulations making people violate their beliefs.

Then why are religious organizations exempt from paying taxes?

How so?

They want to take the Sister's heart-felt loyalty to their God and their faith away from them.

Um.....not sure how that relates to the topic here. :unsure:

Not everyone thinks as you do, obviously. But we all have the right to vote.

Is that how you think science works? You think we all work from the framework that the federal government tells us to use? :blink: Really?

Depends on whether or not you have a grant, I suppose.
I think that if the government were to pass a law outlawing evolution science, you'd have a problem.

Do I think that's ever going to happen?
No, I do not.

But then, as I've said before....back in the 60's, no one believed the government would actually forbid school children to pray...

 

[River Jordan]

Not unless they are planning on using their health insurance to buy birth control. Who does that, anyway?

Um.....lots of folks. In fact, that's what this case is about. The Affordable Care Act requires that insurance plans cover contraception.

You keep telling me about all the Catholic women who use contraceptives. I'm telling you that, if they are doing so, they are doing it against their own faith, but that is their problem.
The Sisters, otoh, are being held up here because, Lord bless them, they are trying to be true to their faith.

They're also trying to force other people to abide by their religious rules. I have a feeling if this were a Muslim employer trying to force their employees to abide by their religious rules, some opinions on this would change.

How many SDAs know, for instance, that their hospitals provide abortions? Now, believing as I do that abortion is murder, should Iapply to be a nurse at one of their hospitals?

I don't know....should you?

They obviously disagree with you.

Yep, and that's why we have courts.

That isn't the same thing as being forced to do something that our faith considers a sin. By golly, I am NOT going to sin against my Lord and my God just because Big Brother tells me to. My faith is a bit stronger than that...I will survive the fine, or the jail time, but going to hell for eternity is a much deeper issue.

Many Buddhists believe killing of any kind is a sin, yet they are forced to pay for a military that kills thousands of people every year. Many Hindus believe eating beef is a sin, yet they are forced to subsidize the beef industry.

Yet with the Little Sisters in this case, they're not being forced to pay for anything they believe is a sin. That's why I don't find their case to be compelling. On the scale of "being forced to support things you don't believe in", their complaint has to rank near the bottom, since they're not being forced to do anything other than fill out an exemption form. The Buddhists and Hindus above don't even get that.

Then why are religious organizations exempt from paying taxes?

It's part of the separation of church and state.

They want to take the Sister's heart-felt loyalty to their God and their faith away from them.

I don't see having them fill out a form equating to "taking their faith away". That sounds like emotional hyperbole to me.

Depends on whether or not you have a grant, I suppose.

No, it doesn't. The government doesn't tell us what framework we have to use in any way, shape, or form. That you think that's how science works is pretty bizarre IMO. I mean....where did you get such an idea?

I think that if the government were to pass a law outlawing evolution science, you'd have a problem.

Well.....yeah, just like I would if they outlawed geology, or genetics.

But then, as I've said before....back in the 60's, no one believed the government would actually forbid school children to pray...

Since when are students banned from praying? What law did that?

 

[Barrd]

Um.....lots of folks. In fact, that's what this case is about. The Affordable Care Act requires that insurance plans cover contraception.

Once again, Big Brother trying to tell us what to do.

They're also trying to force other people to abide by their religious rules. I have a feeling if this were a Muslim employer trying to force their employees to abide by their religious rules, some opinions on this would change.

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/07/22/muslim-company-forcing-christian-employees-to-wear-headscarfs/

Does that change your opinion?

I don't know....should you?

Of course not. And neither should someone apply for a job with an organization that they know does not allow contraceptives, and expect them to provide them with insurance to buy contraceptives. Why would you set yourself up to be at odds with your boss?

Yep, and that's why we have courts.

And here all this time, I thought we had the First Amendment that guarantees us the right to practice our religion as we see fit.

Many Buddhists believe killing of any kind is a sin, yet they are forced to pay for a military that kills thousands of people every year. Many Hindus believe eating beef is a sin, yet they are forced to subsidize the beef industry.

I thought we covered that? We must give unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar. We are not responsible for what Ceasar does with it.

Yet with the Little Sisters in this case, they're not being forced to pay for anything they believe is a sin. That's why I don't find their case to be compelling. On the scale of "being forced to support things you don't believe in", their complaint has to rank near the bottom, since they're not being forced to do anything other than fill out an exemption form. The Buddhists and Hindus above don't even get that.

You don't find their case compelling, because you do not believe as they do. You see nothing wrong with using contraceptives, and, in your eyes, neither should anyone else.
As my Dad used to say, "it all depends on whose ox is being gored." As long as it is the Sister's ox, it's all good...

It's part of the separation of church and state.

Bingo bango, River.
Now, say those words over to yourself a few times.

Separation of church and state.
SEPARATION of church and state.
Separation of church and STATE.

The church is separate from the State. Unfortunately, the State doesn't seem to realize what this means.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In other words, the state has absolutely no jurisdiction over any religious organization. None. At all. Zip.

For this to even be in the courts is a violation of this amendment. The Sisters are "an establishment of religion". The government has no right to go poking it's nose into their business.

I don't see having them fill out a form equating to "taking their faith away". That sounds like emotional hyperbole to me.

Again, YOU don't see. This isn't about YOU violating what YOU believe in. If it were, I'm pretty sure we'd see what happens when you put rocks in River's way...

No, it doesn't. The government doesn't tell us what framework we have to use in any way, shape, or form. That you think that's how science works is pretty bizarre IMO. I mean....where did you get such an idea?

From other science types I know. When you let the government into your laboratory, you put yourself under their control.

Well.....yeah, just like I would if they outlawed geology, or genetics.

Well, you can relax. The ACLU pretty much tends to target religion...particularly Christianity. They want us to know that we have lost our privilege in our beloved Land of the Free...

Since when are students banned from praying? What law did that?

Not tonight, River.
I have a headache...

 

[River Jordan]

Once again, Big Brother trying to tell us what to do.

Well yeah....that's pretty much what laws are....all laws.

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/07/22/muslim-company-forcing-christian-employees-to-wear-headscarfs/

Does that change your opinion?

No, I don't think that employer should be forcing all his employees to follow rules from a religion they don't belong to, just as I don't believe the Little Sisters should being doing it either.

What about you? Do you think that Muslim business owner should be able to do that?

Of course not. And neither should someone apply for a job with an organization that they know does not allow contraceptives, and expect them to provide them with insurance to buy contraceptives. Why would you set yourself up to be at odds with your boss?

Again, you need to get the facts of the case straight. The employees aren't asking the Little Sisters to provide them contraceptives.

And here all this time, I thought we had the First Amendment that guarantees us the right to practice our religion as we see fit.

And as we've been over before, like all our other rights, the right to practice one's religion is not universal or without restrictions.

I thought we covered that? We must give unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar. We are not responsible for what Ceasar does with it.

So why can't the Little Sisters just "give unto Caesar" an exemption form and not be responsible for what Caesar does with it?

You don't find their case compelling, because you do not believe as they do. You see nothing wrong with using contraceptives, and, in your eyes, neither should anyone else.
As my Dad used to say, "it all depends on whose ox is being gored." As long as it is the Sister's ox, it's all good...

All you're doing here is showing that you've not been paying attention to what I've been saying. If you'd prefer to argue against imaginary positions that you make up off the top of your head rather than the ones I actually have, then just say so.

In other words, the state has absolutely no jurisdiction over any religious organization. None. At all. Zip.

Seriously? Why then are Catholic dioceses being prosecuted by the state over their handling of the pedophile scandal? Why does the state go after televangelists who scam people out of their money? Why does the state prosecute pastors who abuse their congregants?

For this to even be in the courts is a violation of this amendment. The Sisters are "an establishment of religion". The government has no right to go poking it's nose into their business.

So in your world, every religious organization can do absolutely anything and everything, and the state is powerless to do anything about it? A Satanist church could kidnap a baby and sacrifice it, and since they're a religious organization, "the government has no right to go poking it's nose into their business"?

From other science types I know. When you let the government into your laboratory, you put yourself under their control.

That's an entirely empty, baseless accusation. If you truly believe that the government is mandating biologists operate under one framework or another, that's a serious accusation against a lot of people. Surely you feel some level of moral obligation to back up such a serious accusation, don't you?

Not tonight, River.
I have a headache...

I got news for ya'.....students are free to pray in school. Always have been, always will be. There are all sorts of Christian groups, Bible study groups, prayer groups, "meet by the pole" events, and the like at public schools all over the country. The whole "prayer has been banned in school" is a right-wing lie. The only thing that's been banned is government-led prayer.

IOW, students are completely free to pray, but a school official can't tell students "Ok, it's time for you to pray and here's how to do it".

 

[Barrd]

Well yeah....that's pretty much what laws are....all laws.

A very great and wise man once said:
Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.

Silly me...I honestly believed him. Once.

No, I don't think that employer should be forcing all his employees to follow rules from a religion they don't belong to, just as I don't believe the Little Sisters should being doing it either.

But he is doing it, and our great and mighty government knows he is doing it. Where is the ACLU on this one? Perhaps they are afraid?
ALLAHU AKBAR....kxcht....no more head!

What about you? Do you think that Muslim business owner should be able to do that?

I think that, if you are going to work for a Muslim boss, this is the kind of thing you ought to expect. And don't expect Uncle Sam to ride to your rescue, either...the home of the brave isn't so brave when facing people who will actually fight back.

Again, you need to get the facts of the case straight. The employees aren't asking the Little Sisters to provide them contraceptives.

The Sisters do not wish to fill out a form that will allow their employees to obtain contraceptives through their insurance, which the Sisters must provide.
Frankly, I still think they should be using volunteers.

And as we've been over before, like all our other rights, the right to practice one's religion is not universal or without restrictions.

I can see restrictions about not sacrificing virgins, or not molesting children. I'm pretty sure God has restrictions against those kinds of things, Himself. As I've said many times, His commandments are for everyone, and always have been.
However, when the government wanders into an area where the religion has a restriction, such as gay marriage, and expect even devout Christians to respect their ruling above God's, we have a problem.
In this case, the Sisters believe that God has a restriction against contraceptives. Whether you or I agree with them is not the issue. Like the Muslim shop owner who wants his workers in hijab, the Sisters do not want their employees using birth control. Now, if the Muslim can make his employees wear those ridiculous things, surely the Sisters have the right to have employees who follow their beliefs, as well?

So why can't the Little Sisters just "give unto Caesar" an exemption form and not be responsible for what Caesar does with it?

We aren't talking about taxes here. As a religious organization, the Sisters are exempt from taxes.

All you're doing here is showing that you've not been paying attention to what I've been saying. If you'd prefer to argue against imaginary positions that you make up off the top of your head rather than the ones I actually have, then just say so.

It seems fairly obvious to me that you do not have a religious objection against contraceptives.
Just as you had no problem with gay marriage.
Not meaning any offense in the world...is there anything in your Christian faith that you would stand up for? Just curious, you understand...

Seriously? Why then are Catholic dioceses being prosecuted by the state over their handling of the pedophile scandal? Why does the state go after televangelists who scam people out of their money? Why does the state prosecute pastors who abuse their congregants?

You aren't talking about Christian practices here. And I'm pretty sure you know the difference.

So in your world, every religious organization can do absolutely anything and everything, and the state is powerless to do anything about it? A Satanist church could kidnap a baby and sacrifice it, and since they're a religious organization, "the government has no right to go poking it's nose into their business"?

Do you actually know of a satanic church in America that sacrifices kidnapped infants? I've heard this accusation before but I've never seen any evidence that they actually do this.
Don't get me wrong, here...I know that there is a lot of child abuse among so-called "satanists". But I have to wonder...do these people abuse children because they are satanists? Or did they become satanists because they like to abuse children?
In either case, of course, Big Brother ought to rescue those kids.
Funny, that we are concerned about saving a child's life after it's been born...but not so much before, isn't it?

That's an entirely empty, baseless accusation. If you truly believe that the government is mandating biologists operate under one framework or another, that's a serious accusation against a lot of people. Surely you feel some level of moral obligation to back up such a serious accusation, don't you?

So, you apply for, and get the grant, and then Big Brother just goes away and doesn't care what you do with the money? That doesn't sound a whole lot like our government...

I got news for ya'.....students are free to pray in school. Always have been, always will be. There are all sorts of Christian groups, Bible study groups, prayer groups, "meet by the pole" events, and the like at public schools all over the country. The whole "prayer has been banned in school" is a right-wing lie. The only thing that's been banned is government-led prayer.
IOW, students are completely free to pray, but a school official can't tell students "Ok, it's time for you to pray and here's how to do it".

Wow.
Of course, no one can stop someone else from praying, just as you can't really force someone else to pray.
However I see nothing at all wrong with a teacher leading her class in prayer. It happens here in this tiny town in Southern Alabama where I live all the time, and nobody seems to be suffering any ill effects from it.
We have Christmas pageants and Easter plays, too...and again, no ill effects. The kids love performing in these things...and some of them are quite talented.
It's nice, being able to grow up in an atmosphere of Christian fellowship.
Too bad we can't continue to give that to all of our kids, everywhere.

 

[River Jordan]

But he is doing it, and our great and mighty government knows he is doing it. Where is the ACLU on this one? Perhaps they are afraid?

From my understanding, it's a different legal issue.

The Muslim employer requires his female employees to wear headscarves while at work. AFAIK, there are no laws mandating anything about headscarves one way or the other, so it's merely a matter of a private business owner putting a requirement on his employees while they're at work and not breaking any laws in the process.

The Little Sisters OTOH want to prevent their employees from using contraception at all, ever. The Affordable Care Act says that employers must provide health insurance to their employees and one of the things the plans have to include is contraceptive coverage. So the Little Sisters would be violating the law if they refuse to provide such coverage. (However, the government has allowed the Little Sisters to be exempt from this requirement)

So the difference between those two is one is potentially violating a law and the other isn't.

I think that, if you are going to work for a Muslim boss, this is the kind of thing you ought to expect. And don't expect Uncle Sam to ride to your rescue, either...the home of the brave isn't so brave when facing people who will actually fight back.

Thanks for answering clearly.

The Sisters do not wish to fill out a form that will allow their employees to obtain contraceptives through their insurance, which the Sisters must provide.

Again, you don't have the facts of this case straight. The Little Sisters don't have to provide anything. That's what the exemption form is for!

We aren't talking about taxes here. As a religious organization, the Sisters are exempt from taxes.

The concept is the same.

It seems fairly obvious to me that you do not have a religious objection against contraceptives.

No, I don't.

Just as you had no problem with gay marriage.

Again you show that you don't pay any attention to what I've actually posted. It's very annoying and makes discussion extremely difficult.

I have said since day 1.....homosexuality is a sin, gay marriage is a sin. Do you understand?

You aren't talking about Christian practices here. And I'm pretty sure you know the difference.

Nice moving of the goalposts. The fact remains, the government has every right to "poke its nose into a church's business" if that church is breaking the law.

And keep in mind, with the Little Sisters case, it wasn't like the government raided their offices and took them away in handcuffs. The Little Sisters brought this case to the courts.

Do you actually know of a satanic church in America that sacrifices kidnapped infants? I've heard this accusation before but I've never seen any evidence that they actually do this.
Don't get me wrong, here...I know that there is a lot of child abuse among so-called "satanists". But I have to wonder...do these people abuse children because they are satanists? Or did they become satanists because they like to abuse children?
In either case, of course, Big Brother ought to rescue those kids.

So you agree that the government should step in and "poke its nose" into the business of a religious organization when the law is being broken. Good.

So, you apply for, and get the grant, and then Big Brother just goes away and doesn't care what you do with the money? That doesn't sound a whole lot like our government...

Come on now....you directly accused a lot of people of dictating the framework that scientists operate under. Do you have any actual evidence of that, or was it just a baseless, empty accusation made by a person who has no idea what they're talking about?

Wow.
Of course, no one can stop someone else from praying, just as you can't really force someone else to pray.
However I see nothing at all wrong with a teacher leading her class in prayer. It happens here in this tiny town in Southern Alabama where I live all the time, and nobody seems to be suffering any ill effects from it.
We have Christmas pageants and Easter plays, too...and again, no ill effects. The kids love performing in these things...and some of them are quite talented.
It's nice, being able to grow up in an atmosphere of Christian fellowship.
Too bad we can't continue to give that to all of our kids, everywhere.

You do understand now that student prayer has not been outlawed, right?

 

[Barrd]

From my understanding, it's a different legal issue.

It's always "a different legal issue" when a Muslim does it.

The Muslim employer requires his female employees to wear headscarves while at work. AFAIK, there are no laws mandating anything about headscarves one way or the other, so it's merely a matter of a private business owner putting a requirement on his employees while they're at work and not breaking any laws in the process.

Nice dodge.

The Little Sisters OTOH want to prevent their employees from using contraception at all, ever. The Affordable Care Act says that employers must provide health insurance to their employees and one of the things the plans have to include is contraceptive coverage. So the Little Sisters would be violating the law if they refuse to provide such coverage. (However, the government has allowed the Little Sisters to be exempt from this requirement)

The Sisters are as committed to their faith as the muzzie is to his. Of course, they aren't nearly as likely to retaliate when told they must violate that faith...which makes a HUGE difference.
Obama's "Affordable Care Act" doesn't seem to be working...

So the difference between those two is one is potentially violating a law and the other isn't.

It seems to me that you are much more concerned about the laws of man than you are about the Laws of God.
Why is that?

Thanks for answering clearly.

That's what I'm here for.

Again, you don't have the facts of this case straight. The Little Sisters don't have to provide anything. That's what the exemption form is for!

Wouldn't they have to provide the insurance?

The concept is the same.

Well then, the Sisters should be exempt from the Affordable Care Act, as well.

No, I don't.

But the Sisters do.

Again you show that you don't pay any attention to what I've actually posted. It's very annoying and makes discussion extremely difficult.
I have said since day 1.....homosexuality is a sin, gay marriage is a sin. Do you understand?

Then why, oh, why would you insist that some poor Christian baker must bake a cake for the gay wedding?
They chose to violate man's law rather than God's Law...and you decided that they were wrong for violating man's law.

As I recall, you cut me up pretty good for siding with the bakeries.

And, here we are, again...

Nice moving of the goalposts. The fact remains, the government has every right to "poke its nose into a church's business" if that church is breaking the law.

That is not what I said, and you know it. Big brother has no business "stepping in" in cases like the Christian bakers who refused to participate in what God has called an abomination, nor do they have any business requiring the Sisters to help young women to obtain birth control.
Now, if the bakeries were using child labor, or if the Sisters were torturing little girls, that would be different.

And keep in mind, with the Little Sisters case, it wasn't like the government raided their offices and took them away in handcuffs. The Little Sisters brought this case to the courts.

Nothing like asking for trouble, I guess. Perhaps they were naive enough to think that Big Brother actually respected the First Amendment.

So you agree that the government should step in and "poke its nose" into the business of a religious organization when the law is being broken. Good.

Where man's law does not conflict with God's law, perhaps. Our government is not to make laws that prevent any religious organization from the free practice of their religion.
You know, when that amendment was framed, I'm pretty sure the men who wrote the thing did not have Satanists in mind...they were thinking Christians.
That was back before we became a "secular nation".

Come on now....you directly accused a lot of people of dictating the framework that scientists operate under. Do you have any actual evidence of that, or was it just a baseless, empty accusation made by a person who has no idea what they're talking about?

So, let's say your laboratory asked for and received a grant to do research relating to cancer in children per St. Jude's Hospital.
I'm pretty sure that would preclude you doing research as to the sex life of bees...do you think you could link the sex life of bees to children dying of cancer?
Could be tricky....

You do understand now that student prayer has not been outlawed, right?

I'm going to answer this in a new post...