What were the disciples asking when they inquired about “what will be the sign of your coming”?

[MatthewG]

Cain asked, "Am I my brother's keeper?" The answer should've been, 'Yes!" If we know something that someone lacks knowledge of and has need of correction, we should offer sound advice. A wise man listens to all respectable advisers.

I just listen to Yahavah, and his Son though, listening to the Spirit is more profitable than listening to man.

Would you say the same thing? I don't trust any person really when it comes down to telling me how I should practice the faith that I have.

Do you know the scripture where Paul states the same thing?

2 Corinthians 1:24 But that does not mean we want to dominate you by telling you how to put your faith into practice. We want to work together with you so you will be full of joy, for it is by your own faith that you stand firm.

Nobody's calling you a "butt-head." We can all wear that label at times! ;)

I'm a very ruthless person sometimes. I just know who I am, and how I act, and how I come off. Though I do try to live by the spirit of Christ, it's hard to convey it through words on a screen, cause you can't really see me, hear me, and understand me.

I don't either. If they don't care you can tell.

I have a hard time trusting people, let alone people that try to dominate me.
There are people who believe they are the corrector. It's not true.
They aren't my dad, and they aren't my mother.
If I am doing illegal things which is committing crimes, police can come get me and take me to jail.
Im sure of all the mistakes and lessons I learned from in life, when incorporating Yahavah in my life, he corrects me, he chastens me.

Nothing is easy. I've suffered some serious mistakes even as I was serving God to the best of my ability. When I ask "Why" I often get an answer. But it is complicated.

God's word is harder than a diamond. We sometimes get knicked because even in our sincerity we butt up against God's word. God doesn't give--we must.

Sometimes we are just victims of a sinful environment. People are not particularly helpful by nature... you think?
But there are also times when God exercises His rights to put upon His children some pretty awful tests, even as He provides a means to get through them. It doesn't seem fair, but we're not God. What is for His glory is a matter for the designer of our personal history.

Yahavah made the diamond. Yahavah can shake my faith, just as it states in Hebrews, where nothing shakable remains but the unshakable.

Hebrews 12:27

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Things that can be shaken. Faith can be shaken. Feelings can be shaken, Emotions can be shaken. What can't be shaken though is standing on the chief cornerstone in my opinion.

God cares, and despite what He lets you go through you will come out proud and happy if you just keep walking with Him.

It's okay if you couldn't answer why Yahavah himself hasn't corrected me. It's because He is fine in the way that I live my faith, in his Son, and believing that things have been completed.

My faith sole rest upon the completed works of Yeshua, the Messiah. No one could ever take that away from me except myself walking away from it.

 

[Davidpt]

Can you answer me this? Why hasn't Yahavah who is love corrected me in suggesting that what I believe is wrong? Cause all I ever hear is human beings telling me that I am.


Is he not working in my life?

Has be abandon me and I am not really even near Yahavah at all?

Am I in the absence of Yahavah? Meaning in the darkness.

Don't play that game here, though. Some of us may have been born at night, but we weren't born last night. Some of us can see right through your charade here.

But let's assume your view is correct. Shouldn't that mean anyone that holds to a different view should then be applying all of the following to themselves, in this case? After all, per this scenario your view is the correct one not their's. Therefore, shouldn't they then be asking you, for example---

"Can you answer me this? Why hasn't Yahavah who is love corrected me in suggesting that what I believe is wrong? Cause all I ever hear is human beings telling me that I am.


Is he not working in my life?

Has be abandon me and I am not really even near Yahavah at all?

Am I in the absence of Yahavah? Meaning in the darkness".
--------------------


See how that works?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I just listen to Yahavah, and his Son though, listening to the Spirit is more profitable than listening to man.

However, God didn't order it this way. We are one on one with God when it comes to deriving our spirituality and love from Him, as well as input into our conscience.

But otherwise, God set teachers in the Church because we do have trouble hearing God when we're trying to be an "island" with no need of anybody. It does us well to be refined by God in *His way* and be corrected by others--it is the way of life. We need to learn submission, and we need to learn humility. There is no other way.

I'm a very ruthless person sometimes. I just know who I am, and how I act, and how I come off. Though I do try to live by the spirit of Christ, it's hard to convey it through words on a screen, cause you can't really see me, hear me, and understand me.

You might be surprised.

I have a hard time trusting people, let alone people that try to dominate me.
There are people who believe they are the corrector. It's not true.
They aren't my dad, and they aren't my mother.
If I am doing illegal things which is committing crimes, police can come get me and take me to jail.
Im sure of all the mistakes and lessons I learned from in life, when incorporating Yahavah in my life, he corrects me, he chastens me.

Yes, but how God chooses to correct you is God's domain. You don't get to decide He shouldn't use people, or teachers, or exhorters, or even enemies. Yes, even in the Bible enemies sometimes gave advice to wayward people who upon failing to hear God through them ended up dead.

Yahavah made the diamond. Yahavah can shake my faith, just as it states in Hebrews, where nothing shakable remains but the unshakable.


Things that can be shaken. Faith can be shaken. Feelings can be shaken, Emotions can be shaken. What can't be shaken though is standing on the chief cornerstone in my opinion.

Well, yes you need something truly solid for a foundation. It is our personal experience with God that can be unshakeable, unless of course we choose to look elsewhere. Then God will give that person a "strong delusion" so that they believe their lies.

It's okay if you couldn't answer why Yahavah himself hasn't corrected me. It's because He is fine in the way that I live my faith, in his Son, and believing that things have been completed.

Well, for one, I've been trying to correct you. If you can't see or are unwilling to see God in that, that's not on me--that's on you. There certainly are others who would challenge your claim that it's unimportant to believe that Jesus preexisted as God's Word.

 

[MatthewG]

However, God didn't order it this way. We are one on one with God when it comes to deriving our spirituality and love from Him, as well as some input into our conscience. But otherwise, God set teachers in the Church because we do have trouble hearing God when we're trying to be an "island" with no need of anybody. It does ut well to be refined and corrected by others--it is the way of life. We need to learn submission, and we need to learn humility. There is no other way.

The Spirit matters, over opinion.

You might be surprised.

Maybe.

Yes, but how God chooses to correct you is God's domain. You don't get to decide He shouldn't use people, or teachers, or exhorters, or even enemies. Yes, even in the Bible enemies sometimes gave advice to wayward people who upon failing to hear God through them ended up dead.

Spirit overrides, At one time I believed Jesus was coming back, but that was because I did not know the context of scripture itself. Now I'm fine with where I am. I try to help people too, but you don't see that either I suppose.

Our different views conflict. That doesn't mean neither one of us are not saved unto the Kingdom of Yahavah, and co-heirs with Christ, adopted Children Son/Daughter of God.

Well, yes you seem something truly solid for a foundation. It is our personal experience with God that can be unshakeable, unless of course we choose to look elsewhere. Then God will give that person a "strong delusion" so that they believe their lies.

Because I believe in Jesus coming back, you consider it a lie. It's fine, and it doesn't bother me, as I shared a moment ago, as you wanted to share with me a part of scripture.

"It's by your own faith you stand firm." I can't change anyone and their mind, but Yahavah can, and it comes at the cost of actually reading the scriptures for what they are saying, with the context of everything within it.

Well, for one, I've been trying to correct you. If you can't see or are unwilling to see God in that, that's not on me--that's on you. There certainly are others who would challenge your claim that it's unimportant to believe that Jesus preexisted as God's Word.

That is where people fool themselves. You are not really my keeper, I am responsible for my own self. You can not die for me. You can not save me.

 

[MatthewG]

Don't play that game here, though. Some of us may have been born at night, but we weren't born last night. Some of us can see right through your charade here.

What is that suppose to mean?

But let's assume your view is correct. Shouldn't that mean anyone that holds to a different view should then be applying all of the following to themselves, in this case? After all, per this scenario your view is the correct one not their's. Therefore, shouldn't they then be asking you, for example---

Everyone is responsible for the faithful life they live towards Yahavah.
Let's take Westboro Baptist for example as on of the most extreme with God hates **GS, signs and what not.
Does God really hate them?
Should I just follow them?
I just share for people to actually go and read the bible for themselves.
They should never believe me what so ever.

"Can you answer me this? Why hasn't Yahavah who is love corrected me in suggesting that what I believe is wrong? Cause all I ever hear is human beings telling me that I am.


Is he not working in my life?

Has be abandon me and I am not really even near Yahavah at all?

Am I in the absence of Yahavah? Meaning in the darkness".
--------------------


See how that works?

I dont.

 

[Marty fox]

Let me ask you, how would faithless people see him?

I also do not believe John was alive passed 70ad. That is a personal choice on my part.



I don't believe that he lived past 70Ad.

The pharisees were faithless and Jesus told them that they would see Him? Obviously its symbolic for knowing that He is God.

Matthew 26
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

 

[Marty fox]

@Marty fox



Who would see him? Faithful people whom were awaiting him, typically people use the verse "every eye shall see him" as those unbelievers would too.




I based these concerning that text "every eye shall see him" would be faithful people who eagerly awaited.

Not some universal claiming as some say.

I also agree that Revelation was written just about 2 - 1 years before the destruction.

Or Jesus came back symbolically in judgement like in the verse below and He will come back a second time literally

Revelation 2
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

I'm glad that we agree on the dating of revelation

 

[MatthewG]

The pharisees were faithless and Jesus told them that they would see Him? Obviously its symbolic for knowing that He is God.

Matthew 26
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Just shared with you two supposed verses, that clear out the details of whom would see Yeshua. Just because Jesus says "all", doesn't mean the Pharisees would see him. Maybe those people within that section actually turned towards Yahavah after his death, burial and resurrection @Marty fox.

Or Jesus came back symbolically in judgement like in the verse below and He will come back a second time literally

Revelation 2
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

I'm glad that we agree on the dating of revelation

It's up to you to decide. I just share with you a couple of scriptures to consider. If you don't think they mean anything, that is fine too.



I can't make you decide. You have to decide, by the Spirit, and of course using scriptures to help you out.


I believe he literally came, and those whom were eagerly waiting, seen him. ( I have no proof other than the scriptures which share that he was coming quickly even in the Revelation.




What is the significance of Jesus return for you today? I believe we live in the new heavens and new earth, already.

 

[claninja]

Okay. I thought that was what I had said in my first writing but maybe I didnt. It was the end of the age.

I’m not asking what end of the age means. I’m asking what “thy coming” means from the perspective of disciples, if they didn’t yet fully understand that Christ was to ascend and then return.

In other words, in Matthew 24:3, how can the parousia (coming), be understood as a return from heaven, if the disciples did not yet know or understand that Jesus was to going to ascend to heaven and then return ?

 

[MatthewG]

I’m not asking what end of the age means. I’m asking what “thy coming” means from the perspective of disciples, if they didn’t yet fully understand that Christ was to ascend and then return.

In other words, in Matthew 24:3, how can the parousia (coming), be understood as a return from heaven, if the disciples did not yet know or understand that Jesus was to going to ascend to heaven and then return ?

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”

 

[claninja]

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”

Right, this explanation of Jesus ascending to heaven and returning was given many days AFTER the olivet discourse.

so if the disciples didn’t yet understand that, what does the question about “thy coming” mean from their perspective, at the time of the olivet discourse ?

 

[Marty fox]

Just shared with you two supposed verses, that clear out the details of whom would see Yeshua. Just because Jesus says "all", doesn't mean the Pharisees would see him. Maybe those people within that section actually turned towards Yahavah after his death, burial and resurrection @Marty fox.


It's up to you to decide. I just share with you a couple of scriptures to consider. If you don't think they mean anything, that is fine too.



I can't make you decide. You have to decide, by the Spirit, and of course using scriptures to help you out.


I believe he literally came, and those whom were eagerly waiting, seen him. ( I have no proof other than the scriptures which share that he was coming quickly even in the Revelation.




What is the significance of Jesus return for you today? I believe we live in the new heavens and new earth, already.

Once again I believe that He came in judgement that's what I believe the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation is about.

I believe that He will physically return at the end of our world as shown below.

Matthew 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds

 

[MatthewG]

Right, this explanation of Jesus ascending to heaven and returning was given many days AFTER the olivet discourse.

so if the disciples didn’t yet understand that, what does the question about “thy coming” mean from their perspective, at the time of the olivet discourse ?

That he wouldn't die. He wouldn't leave them. Beat me, you guess is as good as me. When he was captured, they all left him. When he died, they were some going back to fishin.

Once again I believe that He came in judgement that's what I believe the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation is about.

I believe that He will physically return at the end of our world as shown below.

Matthew 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds

Those all tie together. I believe the scripture all co-insides with itself.

I don't believe this world is gonna end. I believe that would be really stupid for Yahavah to kill off the world...

Cause guess what that would mean? There would not be an never-ending kingdom.

There wouldn't be a world for people to come in and have life and live, and pick and choose.








I believe the end of the world, is not KOSMOS. It was the end of the Mosaic Age, the material religion.

Sacrifices, yatta yatta.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Right, this explanation of Jesus ascending to heaven and returning was given many days AFTER the olivet discourse.

so if the disciples didn’t yet understand that, what does the question about “thy coming” mean from their perspective, at the time of the olivet discourse ?

There is a very simple answer to this question. Look earlier in Matthew 16:27-28. In this text, Christ told the disciples, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

This was Christ predicting His own second coming, which some of His first-century audience would still be alive to see with their own eyes. THIS was the same "coming" which the disciples remembered Christ speaking about earlier in Matthew 16:27-28. Concerning this second coming, they asked Christ in Matthew 24:3 what signs would precede His coming at the consummation of the age and the destruction of the temple.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I don't believe this world is gonna end.

The Scriptures agree with this. God did not create this world in vain. He created it to be inhabited.

I believe we live in the new heavens and new earth, already.

The Scriptures agree with this also. We already inhabit the New Jerusalem, with its New Covenant realities. Sinners are still operating outside the open gates of this New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:15) in the New Heavens and the New Earth, just as Isaiah 65:20 wrote that there would still be the presence of sinners in the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions.

I believe he literally came, and those whom were eagerly waiting, seen him. ( I have no proof other than the scriptures which share that he was coming quickly even in the Revelation.

The Scriptures agree with this also. Moreover, beyond the Scriptures stating this, we have archaeological proofs that Christ bodily returned to resurrect the saints and return with them to heaven back in AD 70.

People usually misunderstand who the "rapture" was supposed to take to heaven with the returning Christ. It was ONLY bodily-resurrected saints which left this planet in AD 70 - there was no so-called "translation" and removal of those believers who had not yet died by AD 70. Otherwise, why would Christ have been so insistent that His disciples flee from Jerusalem and Judea for the mountains? He wanted all the living believers to be absent from the location where He was going to pour out those "days of vengeance" on Jerusalem and Judea. If Christ had intended to take the living saints back to heaven with Him at His return, it wouldn't have mattered a bit if they had stayed in Judea and Jerusalem or not.

So, since Christ's disciples obeyed His warning and fled for the mountains (for which we have recorded evidence), there were no believers around who witnessed Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70. It was only "those who pierced Him" who were within the besieged city of Jerusalem who witnessed this and who mourned when they saw Christ return. They themselves were left behind when that "rapture" occurred, to either die later of sword, plague or starvation, or to be taken captive by the Romans in the disintegrating city.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I believe that He will physically return at the end of our world as shown below.

Matthew 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds

Those two texts were already fulfilled back in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day (the fulfillment of the 1,335th day in Daniel 12:12). You didn't finish the Matthew 16:27-28 text which gives the exact timing for that return, while some of those Christ was then speaking to were still living.

However, even though Christ's second coming was fulfilled back then, we ourselves today are waiting for the THIRD COMING of Christ in our future, when all the saints who will have died since AD 70 will be bodily resurrected into the incorruptible and immortal state. Scripture teaches us that ordinary "year-to-year" history on this planet continues to flow after Christ's second coming (Zechariah 14:4-5, and 14:16). At that THIRD COMING, the culmination of fallen mankind's history on this planet will be wrapped up with a final resurrection and judgment, leaving this planet completely purged of all remaining evil from then onward.

And it will not be soon.

 

[claninja]

There is a very simple answer to this question. Look earlier in Matthew 16:27-28. In this text, Christ told the disciples, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

This was Christ predicting His own second coming, which some of His first-century audience would still be alive to see with their own eyes. THIS was the same "coming" which the disciples remembered Christ speaking about earlier in Matthew 16:27-28. Concerning this second coming, they asked Christ in Matthew 24:3 what signs would precede His coming at the consummation of the age and the destruction of the temple.

Ok, so then from the disciples’ perspective - which likely wasn’t fully aware of the ascension to heaven and return at the time of the OD- when they asked “what is the sign of your coming?”, they weren’t asking “what is the sign of your return from heaven”, but more likely asking “what is the sign of your coming in the kingdom?”

 

[pandaflower]

Great question.
It opens up an opportunity to lose a question of my own and that's related.

What if that second coming of Jesus happened with his resurrection?

He said,this generation will not pass away before we see the son of man coming in the clouds.

But what if that meant to refer to his ascending in the clouds?

A generation is typically forty years.It's been more than two thousand years since Jesus left us.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Ok, so then from the disciples’ perspective - which likely wasn’t fully aware of the ascension to heaven and return at the time of the OD- when they asked “what is the sign of your coming?”, they weren’t asking “what is the sign of your return from heaven”, but more likely asking “what is the sign of your coming in the kingdom?”

Those are both the same thing. No difference whatever. Christ coming in his kingdom with the glory of His Father with the angels to give rewards to each according to his works was spoken of all the way back in the OT by Enoch, the seventh from Adam. Remember? Jude 14-15 quotes this ancient prophecy of "The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Do you really believe that the disciples were unaware of that ancient prophecy of Enoch? Put that Enoch prophecy together with Christ having already told them in Matthew 16:27-28 of His coming in the glory of His Father with the angels, to give rewards to each according to their works while some of Christ's audience was still alive, and they knew very well that Christ was promising to bodily return in their own generation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What if that second coming of Jesus happened with his resurrection?

Not possible. Jesus at His resurrection did not come with angels to give a reward to every man according to his works, as He promised to do in Matthew 16:27-28, while some of that audience was still alive to see that coming. Jesus's prediction in those verses makes it sound as if only a very small minority of those listening to Him at that time would still be alive. At Jesus's resurrection just a little way down the road from that prediction, it would be the universal majority who would have still been alive (almost no one - if anyone at all - who was then listening to Him would have died by that time).

Why do people struggle so hard against the obvious? Jesus returned with His angels to give rewards at a judgment of every man while some of those He was personally speaking to at that very moment in Matthew 16:27-28 would be alive to see it happen. In other words, Christ bodily returned for His second coming back in the first century. The Scriptures are packed with evidence of this.