What's in a Word

[Duckybill]

If you wish to understand what is being said you must first understand the meaning and intent of the terms.

So all these translators didn't understand, but you do? Can you spell ARROGANCE?

John 1:1 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD..

John 1:1 (ASV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (AMP)
[sup]1 [/sup]IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD HIMSELF.

John 1:1 (BBE)
[sup]1 [/sup]From the first he was the Word, and THE WORD was in relation with God and WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (MontgomeryNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was face to face with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (Darby)
[sup]1 [/sup]In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (GW)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (KJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (NASB77)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (NASB)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (NIV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (NLT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (NRSV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (WesleyNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (WEY)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:1 (YLT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD;

 

[dfj]

So all these translators didn't understand, but you do? Can you spell ARROGANCE?

No arrogance intended at all, since the object of my original discussion was simply to clarify the Term "God" in John 1:1.

I have no objections to any of my [font="Arial][size="2"]colleagues[/size][/font], regarding their Translations nor their translating capabilities.

I simply surmised that you could not adequately explain the use of the word "God" in John 1:1, so I ventured an explanation.

If there is someone else in the Forum who would be willing to define the two uses of the term "God" in John 1:1 b & c, I would appreciate it very much.

 

[Duckybill]

No arrogance intended at all, since the object of my original discussion was simply to clarify the Term "God" in John 1:1.

I have no objections to any of my

[font="Arial][size="3"]colleagues[/size][/font], regarding their Translations nor their translating capabilities.

I simply surmised that you could not adequately explain the use of the word "God" in John 1:1, so I ventured an explanation.

If there is someone else in the Forum who would be willing to define the two uses of the term "God" in John 1:1 b & c, I would appreciate it very much.

The term God in Jn 1 is ALMIGHTY GOD. You are confused.

"THE WORD WAS GOD", THE WORD BECAME FLESH...

No arrogance intended at all, since the object of my original discussion was simply to clarify the Term "God" in John 1:1.

I have no objections to any of my

[font="Arial][size="3"]colleagues[/size][/font], regarding their Translations nor their translating capabilities.

I simply surmised that you could not adequately explain the use of the word "God" in John 1:1, so I ventured an explanation.

If there is someone else in the Forum who would be willing to define the two uses of the term "God" in John 1:1 b & c, I would appreciate it very much.

If you are saying God in Jn 1 is implying "a god" then you are preaching JW doctrine.

 

[jacobtaylor]

No arrogance intended at all, since the object of my original discussion was simply to clarify the Term "God" in John 1:1.

I have no objections to any of my [font="Arial][size="2"]colleagues[/size][/font], regarding their Translations nor their translating capabilities.

I simply surmised that you could not adequately explain the use of the word "God" in John 1:1, so I ventured an explanation.

If there is someone else in the Forum who would be willing to define the two uses of the term "God" in John 1:1 b & c, I would appreciate it very much.

You say there is no arrogance intended, but you find it necessary to include Dr to identify yourself. Is this a sign of worldly arrogance? So why not simply surmise your point DR.

 

[dfj]

You say there is no arrogance intended, but you find it necessary to include Dr to identify yourself. Is this a sign of worldly arrogance? So why not simply surmise your point DR.

My apologies Jacob if the Dr. in front of my name has offended anyone. My first observations were that this was a Christian Board where other Christians who held degrees would be welcome. Perhaps I was wrong in that.

The Dr. is an earned degree and is not meant to be, at all, arrogant.

Since my title is causing such a disturbance, would you rather I withdraw from the Board?

 

[Duckybill]

My apologies Jacob if the Dr. in front of my name has offended anyone. My first observations were that this was a Christian Board where other Christians who held degrees would be welcome. Perhaps I was wrong in that.

The Dr. is an earned degree and is not meant to be, at all, arrogant.

Since my title is causing such a disturbance, would you rather I withdraw from the Board?

Who said we want you to leave? Disagreement generates discussion.

 

[jacobtaylor]

My apologies Jacob if the Dr. in front of my name has offended anyone. My first observations were that this was a Christian Board where other Christians who held degrees would be welcome. Perhaps I was wrong in that.

The Dr. is an earned degree and is not meant to be, at all, arrogant.

Since my title is causing such a disturbance, would you rather I withdraw from the Board?

My observation in forums is that most members have heard from theologians with a degree and concluded that it means little in Gods eyes. You my very well have information that is relevant and unknown to mainstream believers. It would seem that your degree, identified by Dr is of importance to you, and yes I think you believe it affords you a higher level of consideration. Do what you like as far as posting, I don't recomend discontinuing your conversation, or membership just get to your point. State in your own words what John is speaking of, If its not God as its understood in todays English. Never making a solid statement or commitment about a topic is very common today. Questioning is simply another way of allowing others to error on their own rather than suggesting an alternate translation. It accomplishes the same results in a more appropriate and defensible manner.

 

[dfj]

My observation in forums is that most members have heard from theologians with a degree and concluded that it means little in Gods eyes. You my very well have information that is relevant and unknown to mainstream believers. It would seem that your degree, identified by Dr is of importance to you, and yes I think you believe it affords you a higher level of consideration. Do what you like as far as posting, I don't recomend discontinuing your conversation, or membership just get to your point. State in your own words what John is speaking of, If its not God as its understood in todays English. Never making a solid statement or commitment about a topic is very common today. Questioning is simply another way of allowing others to error on their own rather than suggesting an alternate translation. It accomplishes the same results in a more appropriate and defensible manner.

Firstly, a great many Pastors are degreed and all of the Bible School and Colleges have degreed professors which most people respect. I agree that there are some who feel that they are, somehow, better than others, but I assure you this is not the case with me. Having a Degree, simply means that certain requirements have been met and that the discipline and research required to meet these requirements has been accepted from an academic standpoint.

Discussion needs to be just that, (discussion). The discussion regarding John 1:1 is in no way intended to find fault with anyone, especially those on the Board but it is intended to try to bring us closer to our God by increasing our understanding of what has been said about Him.

 

[dfj]

One of the things that caught my attention, regarding John 1:1, is that The Sahidic, Coptic version of the Christian Scriptures, which pre-dates the 4th century, being dated in the late 2nd or early 3rd century, corroborates early Christian Christology. However, the most that can be read from Coptic version of John 1:1c, is that "the Word was divine," not "the Word was God."

Now it must be made clear that the term "divine", is meant to refer to Jesus as having the Divine attributes of God the Father but not the meaning that Jesus is God the Father Himself.

In the early Church this was a real problem because of the heresies of the Arians, (forerunners of the JW's), Sabellianism, and the Gnostic threat to the Divinity of Christ.

The Greek, the "Definite Article" is not present in John 1:1c as it is in John 1:1b, (THE Word was with THE God, ton theon). The English Translators knew that John 1:1c was lacking what, in the Greek is, an "Indefinite Article" which is normally represented with an "a". However they knew that in English, this would not have the correct inference, as Jesus Christ is not "a" God. So the English Translators decided that the best rendering for English readers was, "and the Word was God".

Again, not "The Almighty Father" God, but His Son that has His "Absolute Divinity".

So there is absolutely no intent to make Jesus a lessor god nor make Him The Father.

 

[dfj]

My observation in forums is that most members have heard from theologians with a degree and concluded that it means little in Gods eyes.

This may well be true as there is a great deal of pride and arrogance in Scholastic circles which I was never in a mind to habit.

One observation though, Augustine, John Wesley, John Calvin, Martin Luther and many, many of the Christian writers that we read and trust, all had college degrees.

My 1st and 2nd year Greek Professor was a wonderful individual, full of the Spirit of God and very patient and kind.

I would rather debate with people that have the Love of Christ, in these types of forums, rather than the strict academic forums of the university set.

And I do enjoy questions and dialogue.

 

[Duckybill]

Again, not "The Almighty Father" God, but His Son that has His "Absolute Divinity".

So there is absolutely no intent to make Jesus a lessor god nor make Him The Father.

It sounds like you are avoiding the issue, that Jesus is still THE ONE TRUE GOD. Who said Jesus is the Father? Not me. But you cannot separate God. Jesus is still Almighty God.

Revelation 1:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY."

Revelation 1:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

Revelation 1:17-18 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST. [sup]18 [/sup]I AM HE WHO LIVES AND WAS DEAD, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 2:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Revelation 21:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

Revelation 22:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

Revelation 22:16 (NKJV)
[sup]16 [/sup]"I, JESUS, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

 

[dfj]

Who said Jesus is the Father? Not me.

But that is what you are inferring.

But you cannot separate God.

That is very true, that is why Jesus is LOGOS.

Let me ask you:
When Jesus walked the Earth were there two entities, one of the Father and one of the Son or just one of the Son only?

How would you distinguish between Jesus and the Father?

Where is Jesus now?

Is He Omnipresent?

 

[Duckybill]

But that is what you are inferring.

No I am not. God even referred to Himself in the plural.

Genesis 1:26 (NKJV)
[sup]26 [/sup]Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

That is very true, that is why Jesus is LOGOS.

So then, is Jesus God or not??? We are still waiting you answer.

Let me ask you:
When Jesus walked the Earth were there two entities, one of the Father and one of the Son or just one of the Son only?

How would you distinguish between Jesus and the Father?

Where is Jesus now?

Is He Omnipresent?

God cannot be explained other than what He told us in His Word, the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
[sup]16 [/sup]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, Received up in glory.

How could Jesus be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time if He isn't God???

John 3:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

 

[jacobtaylor]

That is very true, that is why Jesus is LOGOS.

Let me ask you:
When Jesus walked the Earth were there two entities, one of the Father and one of the Son or just one of the Son only?

How would you distinguish between Jesus and the Father?

Where is Jesus now?

Is He Omnipresent?

So who do you think this is? The Father or the Son?
When this LORD walked the earth and appeared to Abraham were there two entities as well or one?



Genesis 18
[sup]1[/sup]And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

[sup]2[/sup]And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

[sup]3[/sup]And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

[sup]4[/sup]Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

[sup]5[/sup]And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

 

[dfj]

No I am not. God even referred to Himself in the plural.
Genesis 1:26 (NKJV)
[sup]26 [/sup]Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Yes He did.

1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
[sup]16 [/sup]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, Received up in glory.

Christ is Himself "the mystery of godliness." He who before was hidden 'with God' was made manifest (John 1:1,14; Rom 16:25-26; Col 1:26; 2 Tim 1:10; Titus 2:11; 3:4).

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man WHO IS IN HEAVEN. How could Jesus be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time if He isn't God???

He wasn't.

Another interesting question regarding the Greek Manuscript evidence. "WHO IS IN HEAVEN" isn't in several of the original Greek texts.

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NAS Same as the ESV

John 3:13; Greek text: Kaí oudeís anabébeeken eis tón ouranón ei-meé ho ek toú ouranoú katabás-- ho Huiós toú Anthroópou

However, I have no problem with the rendering of the NKJV, as it can simply mean, that as LOGOS, Christ is still emanates from the Father. still has His connection in the Father.

 

[Duckybill]

Yes He did.

Yes, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

He wasn't.

Several English translations says He was. And that would be very consistent with the rest of the NT.

Another interesting question regarding the Greek Manuscript evidence. "WHO IS IN HEAVEN" isn't in several of the original Greek texts.

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NAS Same as the ESV

John 3:13; Greek text: Kaí oudeís anabébeeken eis tón ouranón ei-meé ho ek toú ouranoú katabás-- ho Huiós toú Anthroópou

However, I have no problem with the rendering of the NKJV, as it can simply mean, that as LOGOS, Christ is still emanates from the Father. still has His connection in the Father.

Are you intentionally avoiding the question, is Jesus God? Or will you call Thomas, Peter and John's statements erroneous? Your evasiveness should be quite obvious to anyone reading here.

 

[dfj]

Are you intentionally avoiding the question, is Jesus God?

I have answered this question numerous times. Until you are willing to define your term "God", your arguments remain circular.

Just define exactly what you mean by Jesus is God.

 

[dfj]

Perhaps I will try this again. John 1:1

En archeé eén ho Lógos kaí ho Lógos eén prós tón Theón kaí theós eén ho Lógos

Looking at 3 important terms:

1- tón Theón - This phrase is intended to mean, YHWH Elohiym, The Father.
2- theós - In John 1:1c in regard to the intrinsic absolute diety/divinity of Lógos
3- Lógos - In this usage, indicates the Divine expression of YHWH Elohiym, compeised of His thought, reason and His nature, (that which can be understood of Him).

As to why is there no indefinite article, (a), before the term theós in John 1:1 c, perhaps because it would allude to the existance of two gods, (The God of John 1:1 b and a God of John 1:1c).

Also, John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Kaí ho Lógos sárx egéneto kaí eskeénoosen en heemín kaí etheasámetha teén dóxan autoú dóxan hoos monogenoús pará Patrós pleérees cháritos kaí aleetheías

Two clauses:

1- "ho Lógos sárx egéneto"
2- monogenoús pará Patrós

I understand, "ho Lógos sárx egéneto", to mean that the Divine expression of YHWH Elohiym, comprised of His thought, reason and His nature, was fused into the being of Jesus Christ, (anointed Savior), upon His conception and remained in Him as His Divine nature.

I understand "monogenoús pará Patrós", to mean the only human being to be born without a human father, (via the Spirit of YHWH Elohiym), who's nature was both human, as to the flesh and Divine as to His Spirit. The Divine expression of YHWH Elohiym, comprising the thought, reason, (Precepts, Commands, Laws. Ways, Oracles, etc), and the very nature of the Father dwelling in The Son. But not all of the Fathers knowledge, (Omniscience), nor all of the Father's athority and Power, (Omnipotence), nor the Omnipresence of the Father while Christ was a human being.

 

[year2027]

God first

thanks David F. Jones

what does have to do with anything?

you say you have a academic doctor degree why should I believe you?

I heard of people lying about a degree on the net

so you say have something

where did you study God's word there is not capitol word in the whole bible

so capitol words means nothing until it translated into another language

so it can mean god or God

it can mean one becomes a god kind

it can mean one is god

it can mean god is in you

you see the many possibles

with love and a holy kiss Roy
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[year2027]

God first

thanks Duckybill

so you say but you may not understand as must you think

there are many verses to prove you are wrong as you can get to prove you are right

so it a mute subject

we will never again agree because we been taught different

I see it both ways and more my friend

there a fleshly view and there a spiritual view

with love and a holy kiss Roy

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