When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.
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I agree the body has to die first as scripture says....and it will as they are ascending and receiving glorified body at the same time. But for the rest of what you're saying I think we need to look at the context:
1Th 4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes indeed.
The pretrib rapture ( the bride of nature 25 gathered)
Then Jacob's trouble ( appointed to Israel)
Then the covenant Jewish wife gathered in Rev 14.
Then the second coming on white horses as you pointed out.
The only resurrection to immortality recorded in the Bible is the "first resurrection" which pertains to the resurrection of Christ physically from the dead, and the only other resurrection to immortal life shall be when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound in an hour coming when ALL the physically dead are resurrected bodily from the graves to mortal life or condemnation.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes
Only a pretrib rapture fits.
Just look at all the creativity of other positions to attempt to make something else fit.
I would say pre-wrath. The bible says it is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of heaven, and that in this world we SHALL have tribulation, but to fear not for Jesus has overcome the world.
Yes but His word is spiritual, it is often deeper and has more dimension than the mere two-dimensional black and white words and facts of it. We need to "hear what the SPIRIT is saying". With scripture we're told to compare spiritual with spiritual. So yes it happened unto apostate Israel/Jerusalem, but we must remember it happened unto them for ensamples and warning to us, the church (mostly Gentile). To the Jew first then the Gentile........."tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who doeth evil, to the Jew first, then the Gentile." So that is why I believe 70 AD serves as a pattern for what the apostate church and the world (nations/Gentiles) can expect in the end of this age.
How we end on this issue depends upon how we begin. What death did Adam die when he sinned in the Garden? Surely, it was not physical because he did not die physically at that time. "In the DAY that you eat of it, you shall surely die." The same is true of their eyes being opened. It happened instantaneously and was not delayed.
Adam had enjoyed a perfect relationship and fellowship with God in Eden. When he sinned, that fellowship was immediately broken and it passed down to ALL mankind. EVERYONE enters this world spiritually stillborn--physically alive but spiritually dead. In the new birth, believers are given new life in Christ (John 3). When the saints of Jesus' generation believed, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14)--the promise to come at His appearing to THEM. For them, there could be no "second death." At Christ's coming in A. D. 70, when He abolished the old covenant and fully established the new, all of the "dead ones" in Hades were resurrected (along with those who were yet alive--1 Thes. 4). Then all joined together with Christ and were forever with Him--to be joined by all saints after them.
Christ was not physically "resurrected" from the grave. He was physically "raised" from the grave like other dead people had been before Him, such as Jairus' daughter (Luke 8), Lazarus (John 11), Widow of Nain (Luke 7), Dorcas (Acts 9). Therefore, there was nothing unusual about His coming forth bodily out of the tomb. The destination of all who died was Sheol/Hades because no was yet fitted for heaven apart from the finished work of Christ in salvation. Hades was the waiting place. As our substitute as a man, Christ had to suffer the same fate in His payment for sin. His resurrection was His overcoming of the bonds of Hades. He was resurrected spiritually (the first resurrection) before He was raised physically. His physical rising provided evidence of that resurrection. Also, He had more work to do on the earth before His ascension.
The question asked in 1 Corinthians 15 concerned the destiny of those who had died before the cross (the "dead ones"). Some denied that they would be resurrected. Paul's answer to them was that if the "dead ones" (those in Hades) were not resurrected than neither could Christ be resurrected since HE was one of the DEAD ONES. If the dead ones don't rise, neither does Christ.
The physical body was given to man for him to navigate THIS world. The body is not evil, as the gnostics would contend. It is merely a vehicle for this PHYSICAL realm. The body is from the dust of the earth and to that same dust it will return. It is the seed (1 Cor. 15) that goes into the ground and DIES. That which is NOT like the seed comes forth. It is that eternal nature which has been created within us through the new birth that is fitted for the heavenly realm. The body is not eternal and was never meant to be.
1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
These words are written for the Church throughout the ages. The immediate audience being those first century saints scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. Not limited to them only, but also to whosoever might hear their testimony of Christ and by grace through faith believe in Jesus and receive everlasting life.
1 Peter 1:6-9 (KJV) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Matthew 24:13-14 (KJV) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The end of all things Peter wrote to saints, might be faithfulness unto death that all who are persecuted are called to endure. The one who endures to the end (mortal life) shall be saved. These first century disciples of Christ, (certainly not limited to them) must endure great trials and tribulation in this life. Being called to be witnesses unto all nations. Which had not yet been accomplished during the first century AD. These first century disciples of Christ could not have been witnesses throughout the world to nations that did not yet exist. It was only through their faithfulness unto death that the Gospel continued to prosper throughout nations for all time. Since the Gospel is still be preached unto all nations of the world, clearly the end of all things has not yet come for this earth.
Lizbeth, what is the context of 1 Corinthians 10? To whom is Paul speaking? What happened as an example and to whom did it happen as an example? Paul is addressing "brothers" of his day--the saints at Corinth ("to the church of God that is in Corinth"--1 Cor. 1:2). Paul is speaking to THEM about their "fathers" in the time of Moses who had passed through the Red Sea. Paul warns them that God was "not pleased" with most of those of that time. (verse 5). Those were the things that were examples. They were not examples to US, Lizbeth. Paul said: "Now these things took place as examples for US [Paul and those of his day] that WE [Paul and those of his day] might not desire evil as they did" (verse 6). Paul is not talking about what happened to "apostate Israel/Jerusalem" as an example to US. You are not giving due attention to the context of the verse you use to support your argument, therefore, you are making an incorrect application.
First Corinthians 10 in no way justifies taking AD 70 "as a pattern for what the apostate church and the world . . . can expect in the end of this age." Furthermore, where does the Bible say anything about "the end of this age." The Jews knew of two ages: The Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age. Jesus made it clear that He and those of His day were living in the Mosaic Age. When addressing the unpardonable sin in Matthew 12, He stated that it would not be forgiven "either in THIS age or in the age ABOUT TO COME." The writer of Hebrews demonstrates that even in his day the Mosaic Age (the "this age") was "growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13). The Age that was ABOUT TO COME was the Messianic Age. The Mosaic Age was about to become "obsolete" and became so in A. D. 70 when the seat of all that pertained to the Old Covenant was destroyed (i.e., Jerusalem and the Temple). The age which Jesus announced was then ABOUT TO COME emerged victorious amidst the rubble of the destruction wrought by the Romans. That age, in which we now live, has no end.
Day is defined as both one twenty-four-hour period of time as well as the whole age in which one is physically alive on this earth. God told Adam he would live forever IF he obeyed God. But if he disobeyed God's command, in that day he would die. For that reason, Adam & Eve and their offspring were ordained to physical death, being appointed a certain physical number of days according to the will of God.
A&E immediately knew they had sinned against God, which is why they tried to cover their nakedness and hide from God. The fact they tried to hide from God shows their nakedness was more than physical, there was a spiritual separation as well. Otherwise, they would not have noticed being physically naked. Because now their eyes being opened to sin and evil they spiritually became like the evil one to whom they heeded. After the fall mankind would all be physically born with the same lusty desires of their new master they submitted to. For the same desires are passed on through natural birth to all the sons and daughters born of our first parents. For this reason, mankind cannot again hear the voice of God unless/until he/she is born again through the Spirit of Christ supernaturally. We MUST be born again, not physically but spiritually.
Just as God had promised our first parents, the days of their physical lives ended with bodily death coming to them one specific day.
It's a principle. Types/figures/shadows/allegories of old testament scripture that do apply to the church. Please dont' be offended, I don't mean to diminish anyone, but it never really was all about Israel to start with. That was all pointing to and leading to and speaking in parables about the mystery of God from the foundation of the world...the gospel of Messiah/Christ and His church and kingdom which are not of this world.
Where are the physical bodies in Paul's statement: "the dead shall be raised incorruptible"? Notice also the "WE" used by Paul. Why do so few acknowledge the audience relevance of passages and make everything about them? When Paul says "WE," he means himself and those to whom he is writing. THEY were to be changed "at the last trump." The timing of that "last trump" was given to John himself. He was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. In case we miss that timing in the first chapter, it is repeated in the last. And there John is told to NOT seal up the vision. Why? Because the time IS (was) NEAR--in his day.
The question being answered in 1 Corinthians 15 had to do with the destiny of the "dead." Some were contending that because they died before atonement was made, they would not be resurrected. In the Greek, the word translated as "dead" is a participle meaning the "dead ones." Paul made it clear that Christ Himself was among the "dead ones." IF the "dead ones" did not rise, then neither did Christ. Clearly, this was not a reference to His physical coming forth from the grave because they all acknowledged that that had happened! The "dead ones" waited in Hades for the time when the corruptible would be made incorruptible--when they would be fitted for heaven (not their physical bodies). Paul placed that event in HIS day. When Christ returned, He first called forth the "dead ones" ("the dead in Christ") who waited in Hades and then those who were still alive at His coming were gathered together to them and to Him--forever. They wee the firstfruits. All saints from that time on go immediately into God's presence at death. First Corinthians 15 is NOT about physical bodies. We must not assume that everytime we see the word "body" that it means physical.
What is the CONTEXT of 1 Peter 4? I have to say it again: WE are NOT the YE. In Peter's own day "the end of all things" was AT HAND. Because it was at hand in THEIR day, THEY were to be "sober"; THEY were to 'watch unto prayer." When Peter wrote "we," he meant himself and those of his day.
Paul spoke of this time ("the sound of the Trumpet") in 1 Thessalonians 4 as something that was to happen to those of HIS day and not of ours. It is the same 'trumpet call" that Jesus Himself placed in HIS GENERATION in Matthew 24. The last trumpet sounded in A. D. 70 with Christ's coming in judgment against His enemies (see Matthew 23) when He abolished the Old and instituted the New. Hades was emptied and thrown into the "lake of fire." Context comes before application and analogy.
rwb, you wrote "Because now their eyes being opened to sin and evil they spiritually became like the evil one to whom they heeded." When were their eyes opened? Were they not opened in the same "day" in which they were to die? In the very SAME day in which they died, their eyes were opened. This means IMMEDIATELY. Clearly, they did not die physically when their eyes were opened--on the very same "day." They died in their relationship with God. They knew it.
that's kinda correct . Christendom is headed for a fall as it has proven to be in opposition to the way governments want things. religion is constantly at ends with other religions to force belief on to the other party . get rid of religion then there will be peace ,or so they think. it should be noted God gives no value to any false religion .Mark 7:7 states, "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."The message is that empty, ritualistic worship, detached from genuine devotion and obedience, is ultimately ineffective and meaningless in God's eyes.
its not until the powers that be then turn their attention to the peoples that do offer to God the worship and devotion that he does find worthy, that then does God then react . hence the call to 'get out of her my people '(revelation 18:4)
its then Armageddon , a serious one sided action taken against any that would threaten the ones he likes,
Christ did NOT come in 70 A.D! Utter destruction through the wrath of God came to the city and temple just as God had promised! When those of Old came out of the graves AFTER the first resurrection (Jesus' resurrection), it could not have been in physical immortal & incorruptible bodies. The Bible shows us that the bodily resurrection shall not be until an hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound, and time/delay shall be no longer.
Those saints coming out of the graves after the resurrection of Christ were not physically seen in earthly Jerusalem. They were seen by an innumerable company of angels in heaven as the spiritual body of Christ resurrected from the graves as living souls. None could ascend a spiritual body to heaven before Christ made atonement for sin and defeated death. It is in this manner that these Old Covenant saints and now since Christs' first advent that all saints shall depart our body in death and as spiritual body be with the Lord in heaven to wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete and Christ comes again.
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Unlike other humans resurrected from the dead, Christ ONLY physically resurrected IMMORTAL & INCORRUPTIBLE and would NEVER die again. All these others being raised for certain purposes have died. This is what makes the resurrection of Christ unique from ALL others!
Lizbeth, how does one form a principle except to first study indepth the thing upon which the principle is to be based? There is a principle that one should be careful to not repeat the errors of others. But that is not what you are doing. You are taking something out of context with its specific contextual, historical characters and events and applying them to a different context. From your post, I did not get the impression that you were using 1 Corinthians 10 as a principle. You were clearly contending that Paul was referring to AD 70 and to us. He was not.
"It never really was all about Israel to start with"? While there are types outside of the calling of Israel (e.g., adam, tree of life, Ark, Flood), many of the types we find in the OT scriptures clearly point to the antitypes found in the NT (e.g., temple, passover, lamb, David, sacrifices, tabernacle, priesthood, feasts).
Amen, I think this is right. That's why scripture says to seek the Lord while it is still called "Today". Speaking of both the length of one's life as well as this age of grace. Like where it says "Night cometh when no man can work"....I believe speaks to both once a person dies, as well as once this age of grace is over it will be too late to labour in God's vineyard for the salvation of others.
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