When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[rebuilder 454]

Unlike other humans resurrected from the dead, Christ ONLY physically resurrected IMMORTAL & INCORRUPTIBLE and would NEVER die again. All these others being raised for certain purposes have died. This is what makes the resurrection of Christ unique from ALL others!

This partially true.
When Jesus descended into paradise into the lower parts of the Earth, which is adjacent to Hades , He preached to those captives.
The ones that he took to heaven had agreed with the gospel message.
....And they were seen, resurrected bodily ,in the streets of Jerusalem.
Jesus, along with those saints from the Old Testament, are in fact, the first fruits of the first resurrection, and are now in heaven .

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is no "end of the world." Also, Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in that very generation of those disciples right there with Jesus. The word translated as "world" their is oikoumene. It means "household." It is the same word that is found in Luke 2:1 where Caesar puts forth a decree that "all the world" should be enrolled. At that time, "world" meant the Roman Empire. No one else would have been obligated to go back to their home of birth and be registered. Therefore, it was the Roman Empire that was to be fully given the Gospel and not the entire kosmos.

Here are some examples that prove the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 in THAT generation:

• Acts 2:5 “Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from EVERY nation under heaven.” THEY heard the Gospel.
• Colossians 1:5-6 “For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit”
• Colossians 1:23 “This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed TO EVERY CREATURE under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
• Romans 1:8 “I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout THE WHOLE WORLD. “
• Romans 10:18 “Their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the END OF THE WORLD “
• 1Timothy 3:16 “He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed AMONG THE NATIONS, believed on I:N THE WORLD, taken up in glory.”
• Romans 15:19 “Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that FROM JERUSALEM, and round about unto ILLYRICUM, I have FULLY preached the gospel of Christ.”

ALL the things of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in THAT generation.

Who are the "every eye," rwb? Here we see the "clouds" mentioned in Acts 1:11. THAT was the "like manner" in which He was to return and did return. Among these "every eye" are Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership to whom Jesus said: "YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64). He came on the clouds of heaven and Caiaphas and the entire Sanhedrin SAW it!

Furthermore, the "every eye" occurs in connection with "they also which pierced him." Who pierced Him, rwb? Was it not the soldiers at the crucifixion? Was it not the Jews who were ultimately responsible for the piercing? His blood was on THEIR hands. The "kindreds" is from the Greek word

Jesus left with "clouds" and He returned with "clouds." THAT is the "like manner" of Acts 1:11. Again, where were the "every eye" at His ascension? The "every eye" very much included Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership, to whom Jesus said: "YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). Like manner=CLOUDS.

Who also would see Him? "They also which pierced Him." Who pierced Him? The Roman soldiers did the actual piercing but the power and authority behind it was the JEWS. THEY demanded His death so They ultimately pierced Him. That is why the rest of the verse is accurately rendered "tribes of the land." The word rendered "kindreds" by the KJV is fule. It occurs 31 times in the NT. With the exception of two occurrences, it always means TRIBES. The same is true of the Greek word incorrectly translated as "earth." While it can be rendered "earth," the context with TRIBES and those "which pierced Him" is very Jewish and requires the understanding of "land." The apostate Jews whom Jesus pronounced guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" would live through the desolation of their "house" (The Temple)--Matthew 23. Revelation 1:7 was that time. A. D. 70!

No, Jesus has not returned yet.
That doctrine is bogus beyond words

 

[rebuilder 454]

I didn't say the spirit died in the sense that it did not exist--I said they died spiritually in relationship to their fellowship with God. Notice what SCRIPTURE says about "spirit" death:

Revelation 3:1
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but YOU ARE DEAD..

Ephesians 2:1
And you were DEAD in your trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were DEAD in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Colossians 2:13
When you were DEAD in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the DEAD to bury their own dead.

Hosea 13:1
When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling.
He exalted himself in Israel,
But through Baal he did wrong and DIED [not literally]

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of DEATH into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I DIED; [not literally]

rwb: Will you plealse explain how Adam and Eve could have their eyes open "in the day" (immediately) but didn't die in that same day? It's a dilemma for you.

It just means "dying" was introduced.
They no longer were immortal BODILY ON EARTH.

What is your interpretation.?

 

[rebuilder 454]

As I already told you: The emphasis in that passage is not on Christ's body or His visibility. You must understand what His ascension meant to those disciples right there at the time. They were Jews who understood the meaning of "clouds" from their OT writings. We must not approach a book written predominantly by Jews with our western mindset. We must get into their skin.

THEY were with Jesus when He offered up to the Father His high priestly prayer to have His glory restored to Him (John 17). THEY would have understood His ascension as the answer to that prayer. It has nothing to do with His body or His visibility. It had to do with GLORY--as depicted by the clouds!

God came in judgment in the OT on clouds of glory.

"An oracle concerning Egypt, See, the LORD rides on a swift CLOUD and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them." (Isaiah 19:1)

"Now I pronounce my judgments against them. Look! He advances like the CLOUDS, His chariots come like a whirlwind..." (Jeremiah 4:12-13)

"Praise the LORD, O my soul...He makes the CLOUDS His chariot and rides on the wings of the wind." (Psalm 104:3)

"Wail and say, 'Alas for that day! For the day is near--a day of CLOUDS, a time of doom for the nations.'" (Ezekiel 30:3)

It's about the CLOUDS. He left in clouds of glory; He returned in clouds of glory.

No sir
It is EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.
BODILY AND VISIBLE RETURN.

It does not need doctrinal massage and fitment.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The problem for Preterists is the same as that of Christian Zionists dispensationalism. Being consumed with Israel of Old they fail to understand the Kingdom of Old that was a literal physical Kingdom of God is changed through Christ into a spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in when He came to earth a man. The Kingdom of Old being a physical Kingdom is no more. It is changed to the new Kingdom of God that is not of this earth, but is of heaven, and is not physical, but spiritual, and may only be entered into when man is born again of the Spirit of Christ in them.

All Christians know that.
Every pretribber agrees that salvation is through Jesus whether Jew or Greek.

But If you need romans 11 erased, they you have a huge problem.

In both Hosea and Ruth we see the 2 wives.

Christian
Jews.
No jews enter unless through Jesus.
Messianic Jews

So I am sure I fit under your nasty classification of evil zionist dispensationalists.

 

[HappyOma]

No sir
It is EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.
BODILY AND VISIBLE RETURN.

It does not need doctrinal massage and fitment.

"None is so blind as he who will not see." rebuilder, even if He were to come bodily and visibly (which He did not and was not to), the Bible is clear through Jesus' own words that He was to return to those disciples right there with Him. He told them so. The inspired writers told the believers of their day that He was coming back to them--Jesus and they admonished those of that day to be ready and to watch.

You will continue to watch and wait for that which is long behind you. He is NOT coming to us because He came to THEM. The Scriptures are clear to those who truly honor truth.

 

[HappyOma]

It just means "dying" was introduced.
They no longer were immortal BODILY ON EARTH.

What is your interpretation.?

Adam and Eve were without sin before they ate of the tree. Right? God warned them that "in the day" that they disobeyed and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would DIE and their eyes would be opened to see good and evil.

"In the day" applies to both the opening of their eyes and their dying. It does not mean that "dying was introduced"--although that is an after effect for the rest of mankind. But God was not speaking to the rest of mankind. He clearly told Adam that in the very day that he sinned, HE WOULD DIE.

rebuilder, when were their eyes opened? Was the opening of their eyes simply being "introduced"? Were they to gradually have their eyes opened so that they gradually understood good and evil? No. It was immediate. We cannot force the dying to include an ongoing process while have the opening of their eyes be instantaneous. What is true of the one is true of the other. "In the day" that they sinned, they DIED and their eyes were opened.

How did they die? They became "dead in their trespasses" and sins. They were no longer able to commune with God and were cast out of His presence. It is THAT dying that Jesus came to overcome--not physical death.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Adam and Eve were without sin before they ate of the tree. Right? God warned them that "in the day" that they disobeyed and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would DIE and their eyes would be opened to see good and evil.

"In the day" applies to both the opening of their eyes and their dying. It does not mean that "dying was introduced"--although that is an after effect for the rest of mankind. But God was not speaking to the rest of mankind. He clearly told Adam that in the very day that he sinned, HE WOULD DIE.

rebuilder, when were their eyes opened? Was the opening of their eyes simply being "introduced"? Were they to gradually have their eyes opened so that they gradually understood good and evil? No. It was immediate. We cannot force the dying to include an ongoing process while have the opening of their eyes be instantaneous. What is true of the one is true of the other. "In the day" that they sinned, they DIED and their eyes were opened.

How did they die? They became "dead in their trespasses" and sins. They were no longer able to commune with God and were cast out of His presence. It is THAT dying that Jesus came to overcome--not physical death.

It means both
They "died" in that separation took place.
Physical death was also introduced.

 

[HappyOma]

No, Jesus has not returned yet.
That doctrine is bogus beyond words

rebuilder, you do not prove your assertions with the Scriptures. Have I not given you amble passages that clearly demonstrate that Jesus Himself placed His return in the generation of those disciples right there with Him? Have I not pointed out with Scripture that the inspired writers believed and taught that He was returning to them? Do I have to post again?

The abundance of time statements and time words is overwhelming and cannot be ignored. Yet you stubbornly still contend that "Jesus has not returned yet." If you are wrong (and the Scripture declare that to be so), you are calling the very things that Jesus Himself taught "bogus."
Let's begin with just ONE verse. We can both look at it together in its context and then give our understanding. Fair enough? You go first--

The writer of Hebrews, writing shortly before A. D. 70 (ca. 64-69) wrote the following to those of his own day:

"In a very, very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay" (Heb. 10:37).

 

[rebuilder 454]

"None is so blind as he who will not see." rebuilder, even if He were to come bodily and visibly (which He did not and was not to), the Bible is clear through Jesus' own words that He was to return to those disciples right there with Him. He told them so. The inspired writers told the believers of their day that He was coming back to them--Jesus and they admonished those of that day to be ready and to watch.

You will continue to watch and wait for that which is long behind you. He is NOT coming to us because He came to THEM. The Scriptures are clear to those who truly honor truth.

You are the blind calling me blind

Got it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

rebuilder, you do not prove your assertions with the Scriptures. Have I not given you amble passages that clearly demonstrate that Jesus Himself placed His return in the generation of those disciples right there with Him? Have I not pointed out with Scripture that the inspired writers believed and taught that He was returning to them? Do I have to post again?

The abundance of time statements and time words is overwhelming and cannot be ignored. Yet you stubbornly still contend that "Jesus has not returned yet." If you are wrong (and the Scripture declare that to be so), you are calling the very things that Jesus Himself taught "bogus."
Let's begin with just ONE verse. We can both look at it together in its context and then give our understanding. Fair enough? You go first--

The writer of Hebrews, writing shortly before A. D. 70 (ca. 64-69) wrote the following to those of his own day:

"In a very, very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay" (Heb. 10:37).

That means the AC has come and gone.
That means hailstones of fire were history
The flying scorpions were history
The 144k sealed are history
The Jewish rapture of rev 14:14 already happened.
...to top it off you have Jesus confused, because He said " tribulation such as the world has never seen, or ever will.

Hard to wiggle out if all that.

 

[HappyOma]

now considering the ''they '' are now us as we understand he comes in power and glory

Why do so many pick and choose what they like out of a verse? When the numerous "YEs" are pointed out, they are ignored.

You seek to force this passage into OUR future by zeroing on "they," but let me remind you that it still all falls under the time restriction of the "this generation." And again, you ignore the CONTEXT. Why do not quote the entire verse? If you continue on you will see that Jesus then told THEM that when THEY saw "these things begin to take place," THEY were to "look up" because then THEIR redemption drew near.

The "they" and the "Ye" are of the same time frame--the generation of those very disciples right there with Jesus.

CONTEXT

 

[rebuilder 454]

rebuilder, you do not prove your assertions with the Scriptures. Have I not given you amble passages that clearly demonstrate that Jesus Himself placed His return in the generation of those disciples right there with Him? Have I not pointed out with Scripture that the inspired writers believed and taught that He was returning to them? Do I have to post again?

The abundance of time statements and time words is overwhelming and cannot be ignored. Yet you stubbornly still contend that "Jesus has not returned yet." If you are wrong (and the Scripture declare that to be so), you are calling the very things that Jesus Himself taught "bogus."
Let's begin with just ONE verse. We can both look at it together in its context and then give our understanding. Fair enough? You go first--

The writer of Hebrews, writing shortly before A. D. 70 (ca. 64-69) wrote the following to those of his own day:

"In a very, very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay" (Heb. 10:37).

I suppose you think Rev 19 says Jesus came back with millions of white horses 2000 years ago but it was also incognito?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do so many pick and choose what they like out of a verse? When the numerous "YEs" are pointed out, they are ignored.

You seek to force this passage into OUR future by zeroing on "they," but let me remind you that it still all falls under the time restriction of the "this generation." And again, you ignore the CONTEXT. Why do not quote the entire verse? If you continue on you will see that Jesus then told THEM that when THEY saw "these things begin to take place," THEY were to "look up" because then THEIR redemption drew near.

The "they" and the "Ye" are of the same time frame--the generation of those very disciples right there with Jesus.

CONTEXT

Context
He also told the disciples " not one hair on your heads will be harmed."
Yet they all, save John, died violent deaths by demonic forces.
Very few believers know what is going on in that verse.

So much for trying to mentally interpret as you are doing.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

No, Jesus has not returned yet.
That doctrine is bogus beyond words

how many more signs do you need to understand that Jesus is now present ?
3 ''And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives the disciples came to him by themselves, saying “Tell us when this will be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the final time.”4 And Jesus answered them “Look out that no one deludes you. 5 For many will come under my name, saying ‘I am the Messiah,’ and delude many. 6 And you are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not disquieted; for they have to come, but it is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in one place and another; 8 but all this is the beginning of the birth-pangs. 9 Then they will have you arrested and cruelly treated, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 And then many will be staggered and have each other arrested and hate each other; 11 and many pretended prophets will arise and delude many; 12 and, because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will cool;— 13 but he who holds out to the end, he will come safe through;— 14 and this gospel of the Reign will be proclaimed in all the world of men, for an attestation to all the nations. And then the end will come.''
every one of the things listed has happened ,even in one generation . he has returned ,even now he it separating, even as a man separates sheep from goats.
even now there are people he likes .he called to them and they respond . if you don't respond then you are not of his sheep.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Adam and Eve were without sin before they ate of the tree. Right? God warned them that "in the day" that they disobeyed and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would DIE and their eyes would be opened to see good and evil.

"In the day" applies to both the opening of their eyes and their dying. It does not mean that "dying was introduced"--although that is an after effect for the rest of mankind. But God was not speaking to the rest of mankind. He clearly told Adam that in the very day that he sinned, HE WOULD DIE.

rebuilder, when were their eyes opened? Was the opening of their eyes simply being "introduced"? Were they to gradually have their eyes opened so that they gradually understood good and evil? No. It was immediate. We cannot force the dying to include an ongoing process while have the opening of their eyes be instantaneous. What is true of the one is true of the other. "In the day" that they sinned, they DIED and their eyes were opened.

How did they die? They became "dead in their trespasses" and sins. They were no longer able to commune with God and were cast out of His presence. It is THAT dying that Jesus came to overcome--not physical death.

I can tell you really think you are on to something with that "when were their eyes opened" deal you keep pushing.

You are mentally unpacking the bible.

....unaware that with the Lord "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day"

 

[HappyOma]

You are the blind calling me blind

Got it.

I did not mean that as an insult, rebuilder. I, too, was blinded by my preconceived ideas. We can all become blinded to truth if we will NOT look at the very words of Scripture in their CONTEXT. You are not looking at the words in their context!
Are we willing to lay aside ANY belief we have if it is shown to be outside the truths of the Scriptures? You reject the clear meaning of "this generation" and egregiously and unjustifiably claim that it is "that generation. You do this inspite of the fact that Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times and He ALWAYS meant those of His day, His contemporaries. Have you looked them up? Cross-referencing is a very fundamental principle of sound hereneutics.

Jesus told THOSE disciples that He was coming to them before THEY finished going through the cities of Israel (Mat. 10:23). Jesus told THOSE disciples that THEY would live to see Him COMING IN HIS KINGDOM (Mat. 16:28). Jesus told THOSE disciples that THEY would hear of wars and rumors of wars; THEY would be hated and killed for His name's sake; THEY would see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet; THEY were to flee (and they did!); THEY were to live through the great tribulation; THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree; THEY were to understand that He was coming back to THEM in THEIR generation (Mat. 24).

Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership were told BY JESUS that THEY would see Him "sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). James wrote that the COMING OF THE LORD was AT HAND (James 5:8) and that the Judge was AT THE DOOR (James 5:9). The writer of Hebrews, writing shortly before A.D. 70, wrote that the Lord was coming back in a VERY VERY LITTLE WHILE and would NOT DELAY (Heb. 10:37).

Does it not require willful blindness to not see this? If it takes great effort to reason away that which is plain and obvious, maybe one should reconsider his motives. I say this to myself also. We must all approach the Word honestly and accept wherever it leads us. Are we searching for truth every time we open the Word and study it or are we seeking to uphold our presuppositions?

Please exegete, in its context, Hebrews 10:37.

 

[Scott Downey]

This partially true.
When Jesus descended into paradise into the lower parts of the Earth, which is adjacent to Hades , He preached to those captives.
The ones that he took to heaven had agreed with the gospel message.
....And they were seen, resurrected bodily ,in the streets of Jerusalem.
Jesus, along with those saints from the Old Testament, are in fact, the first fruits of the first resurrection, and are now in heaven .

I agree, and they ascended with Christ when He ascends, they were all gathered in the cloud at His ascension.
They were already in Abrahams's bosum and believed in Christ, just as Abraham did.
But no one in fiery torments was able to cross over to the good side, they remained separated.

All who were in the grave, either hell's torments or Sheol, Paradise, whereever they were in death, heard Christ preach.

No one can ascend into heaven without Christ, as Christ is the only way to the Father who is in heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

how many more signs do you need to understand that Jesus is not present ?
3 ''And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives the disciples came to him by themselves, saying “Tell us when this will be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the final time.”4 And Jesus answered them “Look out that no one deludes you. 5 For many will come under my name, saying ‘I am the Messiah,’ and delude many. 6 And you are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not disquieted; for they have to come, but it is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in one place and another; 8 but all this is the beginning of the birth-pangs. 9 Then they will have you arrested and cruelly treated, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 And then many will be staggered and have each other arrested and hate each other; 11 and many pretended prophets will arise and delude many; 12 and, because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will cool;— 13 but he who holds out to the end, he will come safe through;— 14 and this gospel of the Reign will be proclaimed in all the world of men, for an attestation to all the nations. And then the end will come.''
every one of the things listed has happened ,even in one generation . he has returned ,even now he it separating, even as a man separates sheep from goats.
even now there are people he likes .he called to them and they respond . if you don't respond then you are not of his sheep.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I did not mean that as an insult, rebuilder. I, too, was blinded by my preconceived ideas. We can all become blinded to truth if we will NOT look at the very words of Scripture in their CONTEXT. You are not looking at the words in their context!
Are we willing to lay aside ANY belief we have if it is shown to be outside the truths of the Scriptures? You reject the clear meaning of "this generation" and egregiously and unjustifiably claim that it is "that generation. You do this inspite of the fact that Jesus used that expression NINETEEN times and He ALWAYS meant those of His day, His contemporaries. Have you looked them up? Cross-referencing is a very fundamental principle of sound hereneutics.

Jesus told THOSE disciples that He was coming to them before THEY finished going through the cities of Israel (Mat. 10:23). Jesus told THOSE disciples that THEY would live to see Him COMING IN HIS KINGDOM (Mat. 16:28). Jesus told THOSE disciples that THEY would hear of wars and rumors of wars; THEY would be hated and killed for His name's sake; THEY would see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet; THEY were to flee (and they did!); THEY were to live through the great tribulation; THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree; THEY were to understand that He was coming back to THEM in THEIR generation (Mat. 24).

Caiaphas and the Jewish leadership were told BY JESUS that THEY would see Him "sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN" (Mat. 26:64). James wrote that the COMING OF THE LORD was AT HAND (James 5:8) and that the Judge was AT THE DOOR (James 5:9). The writer of Hebrews, writing shortly before A.D. 70, wrote that the Lord was coming back in a VERY VERY LITTLE WHILE and would NOT DELAY (Heb. 10:37).

Does it not require willful blindness to not see this? If it takes great effort to reason away that which is plain and obvious, maybe one should reconsider his motives. I say this to myself also. We must all approach the Word honestly and accept wherever it leads us. Are we searching for truth every time we open the Word and study it or are we seeking to uphold our presuppositions?

Please exegete, in its context, Hebrews 10:37.

Too rich.
I don't need your guidance.
I 100% recognize any and all verses


Now where in history Is there any antichrist recorded that actually required a mark to buy and sell? And where are the flying scorpions recorded anywere in history.?
Show me any place where your doctrine lines up with anything in history.

The coming of Jesus is as lightning brightens the sky OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

And no....none of your placing me as blind and not belonging to Jesus has ANYTHING to do with truth.
You are so desperate.