When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[HappyOma]

Correct!

But some want to consider it all as many among the early Christians did, as if perhaps they missed it. Which is not what that is all about. Nor are they all just historic events only regarding that generation. What Jesus was eluding to, is that although He "was slain before the foundation of the world" (past tense), if was being manifest in the fulness of time during that generation. Which then also includes all living and all dead from every generation, born before or after--as Paul also eluded to, saying "I was crucified with Christ" (past tense).

The point is--we have come in to "time no more"--not as the end of the world (which was soon to follow), but is the unsealing by "Him who restrains", leading unto "all truth" as promised. It is by this Spirit that I have been speaking to you. In other words, without considering time, by removing the times component to those things written--all truth is revealed. Which was given to me to declare.

Then comes the end.

Jesus placed "the end" in the generation of those very disciples with Him. The end was part of the all things that were to happen in THEIR generation. We cannot come to an agreement because you and I are using the same terminology with different meanings. The Bible speaks of no end of the world. Daniel taught the "time of the end" and not the "end of time."

Notice that Peter, who heard Jesus' words firsthand, wrote: "The END of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). All of this ties to that generation and that Jerusalem and that Temple. Those things were coming to an end. The end was that end of the age the disciples asked Him about and that end of the age was tied to destruction of the Temple.

Scott, it would be very helpful if you would give "addresses" to the verses to which you allude. Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians the "that which restrains"? If you are, please consider that those words were addressed to the Church at Thessalonica. Paul is clear in identifying the time frame of the "man of sin." It was someone of their day--THEY knew who restrained him.

The timing is plain and simple. Jesus returned in the lifetime of those disciples. Jesus declared and His inspired writers and Apostles repeated it. If it did not happen the way that you insist it must happened, perhaps you should re-evaluate your concept of how those things transpired within the established time frame--A. D. 30 - A. D. 70.

 

[HappyOma]

I dont believe Jesus is coming bodily, that we may say lo here He is or there......but He is coming like lightning that lights up the sky from east to west.....yes, in clouds of judgment. I believe He has judged the Jews, but not yet the Gentiles. And further, I consider whether He is going to judge Israel a second time, along with the nations....."double unto her double"..."speak comfortably to her and say that she has paid double for her sins". I dont know how Israel will avoid judgment again if she doubles down on her rejection of Christ by re-instituting Temple animal sacrifices and engaging in friendship with the world" and spiritual adultery through interfaith worship. But also that we will not finish going through the cities/towns of Israel again....because the Lord is going to pass His hand over the grapevine and glean it a second time...a second harvest of remnant Jewish souls before judgment comes. As Christendom falls, I believe things are going to be focussed on Israel again. The ploughman will overtake the reaper....full circle. We are to compare spiritual with spiritual with scripture, so the Lord is not confined necessarily to literal context and a single fulfillment of prophecy. Often it is a case of "One thing God has spoken, two things have I heard.....". (and how do we have ears to hear, but by the Holy Spirit) Anyway, just laying out how I'm seeing things......I dont' want to push it on anyone, so I will leave it there. Just please don't have anything to do with the Temple...it's going to be dangerously deceptive.

Lizbeth, respectfully, I would like to deal with specific passages of Scripture. You states things that I'm sure you have biblical references for, but I am left to try to figure out what they are. I'm confused about what you are expressing and why you are expressing it.

 

[Lizbeth]

1. Misinterpreting Revelation 18:6
She claims God will judge Israel a second time by applying “double unto her double” to the Jewish nation, wrongly identifying Israel as Babylon the Great—a claim with no textual basis.

It's looking that way, sadly, if Israel repeats her same errors that led to the judgment of 70AD. Yes, apostate Israel is Mystery Babylon (along with the spiritually adulterous church). Why Babylon....because Israel became badly infected with Babylonish Talmudic teachings...Babylon paganism. The colours of scarlet and purple were colours of the Levitical priesthood. Mystery Babylon has "merchants" that stand afar off and watch her burning.....didn't Jesus say they had turned His Father's house into a house of merchandise? These things describe apostate Christianity too. Look how church leaders are ensconced in the White House.....riding the beast kingdom......mixing of church and state......spiritual compromise.

2. Restoration of the physical temple and animal sacrifices
She teaches that a rebuilt temple and renewed sacrifices are part of God’s end-time plan, directly contradicting the finished work of Christ (Hebrews 10:10-14).

First of all I'm not teaching anything, only laying out where I'm coming from, as I plainly stated. Secondly, I'm not saying the Temple and resumption of old covenant worship are approved by God or spiritually necessary, only that I believe it is going to happen and that it will not be a good thing, but a doubling down on rejecting the gospel.

3. A massive second harvest of Jewish souls before Christ’s return
This supposed future “revival” of national Israel is speculative and unsupported by New Testament prophecy.

Where did I mention revival of Israel or "massive" anything. I only said I believe there will be renewed evangelism and saving of a remnant of Jewish souls.

4. God will refocus on the nation of Israel after the Church age
This dispensational idea separates God’s redemptive plan into disjointed phases, which Scripture does not teach.

I think the whole world will be focussed on Israel, if they use the Temple for all faiths to worship together and if a false messiah figure (antichrist) operates from there. If the west continues going downhill and antisemitism keeps getting worse, all the Jewish people here will move to Israel and bring their talents and expertise and material assets with them, which will greatly strengthen her as a nation. I see her "star" rising as the west's star is setting. Remember how when Israel rejected the gospel, Paul said he was taking it to the Gentiles instead. Well I think we shouldn't be so high-minded as to think that can't work in reverse too. The west (Christendom) is on a trajectory of increasing hostility towards the gospel. Remember Paul saying don't think unnatural branches couldn't be broken off to make room for more natural branches.

5. “The plowman shall overtake the reaper”
This is taken out of its Old Testament context (Amos 9:13) and misapplied to support her flawed prophetic timeline. Her understanding of Isaiah 2:4 may be compromised as well.

Amos was prophesying of the coming gospel......John the Baptist was the ploughman and Jesus and His disciples were the reapers. As Jesus said to His disciples, they were reaping what others had worked hard for (ploughing is the harder part). I have trouble getting my head around it, but the wording of the ploughman overtaking the reaper seems to convey the image of a circle to me. The world being a sphere. It began in Israel and will end in Israel. Just seems to make sense, though I could be wrong.

I'm curious why my post caused such a strong reaction.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It's looking that way, sadly, if Israel repeats her same errors that led to the judgment of 70AD. Yes, apostate Israel is Mystery Babylon (along with the spiritually adulterous church). Why Babylon....because Israel became badly infected with Babylonish Talmudic teachings...Babylon paganism. The colours of scarlet and purple were colours of the Levitical priesthood. Mystery Babylon has "merchants" that stand afar off and watch her burning.....didn't Jesus say they had turned His Father's house into a house of merchandise? These things describe apostate Christianity too. Look how church leaders are ensconced in the White House.....riding the beast kingdom......mixing of church and state......spiritual compromise.

Disagree. Mystery Babylon and her merchants have nothing to do with Israel in the first century. Do you even know what the merchandises in Revelation 18 signifies? These has spiritual signification that points to Gospel. So who are the merchants of the Gospel since the Cross BEFORE she has become Babylon the Great? Have you considered about that?

First of all I'm not teaching anything, only laying out where I'm coming from, as I plainly stated. Secondly, I'm not saying the Temple and resumption of old covenant worship are approved by God or spiritually necessary, only that I believe it is going to happen and that it will not be a good thing, but a doubling down on rejecting the gospel.

I see that you lack the ability to quote Scripture to support your belief about what is going to happen.

Where did I mention revival of Israel or "massive" anything. I only said I believe there will be renewed evangelism and saving of a remnant of Jewish souls.

"Renewed evangelism", "saving of a remnant of Jewish Souls", and "Massive second harvest of Jewish souls" are talking about the same thing, which is part of false premillennialism dispensational doctrine. So again, I ask for Scripture support for "renewed evangelism for Jewish souls". Where?

I think the whole world will be focussed on Israel, if they use the Temple for all faiths to worship together and if a false messiah figure (antichrist) operates from there. If the west continues going downhill and antisemitism keeps getting worse, all the Jewish people here will move to Israel and bring their talents and expertise and material assets with them, which will greatly strengthen her as a nation.

"I think..." "If they use..." "if a false messiah...." Sounds a lot more like speculation than Gospel Truth.

I see her "star" rising as the west's star is setting.

Scripture please!

Remember how when Israel rejected the gospel, Paul said he was taking it to the Gentiles instead. Well I think we shouldn't be so high-minded as to think that can't work in reverse too.

Show us in Scirpture that the Gospel can be "reversed" back to Israel.

The west (Christendom) is on a trajectory of increasing hostility towards the gospel. Remember Paul saying don't think unnatural branches couldn't be broken off to make room for more natural branches.

"Remember Paul said." "Remember Bible said." "Remember God said." No, you need to learn to quote chapter and verse to prove your doctrine, to see if you know what you are talking about. And don't forget the context is important too.

Amos was prophesying of the coming gospel......John the Baptist was the ploughman and Jesus and His disciples were the reapers. As Jesus said to His disciples, they were reaping what others had worked hard for (ploughing is the harder part). I have trouble getting my head around it, but the wording of the ploughman overtaking the reaper seems to convey the image of a circle to me. The world being a sphere. It began in Israel and will end in Israel. Just seems to make sense, though I could be wrong.

Of course, it's wrong. I know for a fact that this is not what Scripture said. But again, you need to quote Scripture before you explain your belief.

I'm curious why my post caused such a strong reaction.

I understand some took offense when I responded to false doctrine using Scripture, but truth isn't always comfortable. What I continue to see in your posts are personal opinions, speculations, and assumptions, yet not a single chapter or verse to support them. If you claim the Bible is your authority, then quote it. Don't sell me your opinions—sell me the Truth, and I may buy it if confirmed by Scripture. But without the authority of God’s Word with what you are selling, it’s clear you’re not offering the Truth at all.

 

[ScottA]

No! Jesus said "all these things" to His disciples. All those things included His Coming with His mighty angels and their gathering of the elect from the four corners of the earth (i.e., resurrection), the Abomination of Desolation, and the Great Tribulation. Specific things happen at specific times, to specific people. They are not to repeated and cannot be repeated.

The problem for futurists is that if something doesn't happen in the way they insist that it happen, they manipulate the clear timing or create double fulfillments. That is not sound hermeneutics.

What is the context Luke 13:32? His words were a message to Herod ("that fox"). Surely, Jesus intended for him to understand them. This entire verse is surrounded by much controversy and debate and DISAGREEMENT as to what it really means. Whatever the "third day" was, its time frame is not clearly delineated by Jesus. Where does Jesus even hint that He is "covering every generation from the beginning to the end." Jesus does give some indication of the timing when He speaks about their "house" (the Temple) being forsaken (verse 34, 35). That happened in their generation--in A. D. 70

What is your justification for associating Luke 13:32 with the statement "then the end shall come"? Those words are not there.

Jesus placed "the end" in the generation of those very disciples with Him. The end was part of the all things that were to happen in THEIR generation. We cannot come to an agreement because you and I are using the same terminology with different meanings. The Bible speaks of no end of the world. Daniel taught the "time of the end" and not the "end of time."

Notice that Peter, who heard Jesus' words firsthand, wrote: "The END of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). All of this ties to that generation and that Jerusalem and that Temple. Those things were coming to an end. The end was that end of the age the disciples asked Him about and that end of the age was tied to destruction of the Temple.

Scott, it would be very helpful if you would give "addresses" to the verses to which you allude. Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians the "that which restrains"? If you are, please consider that those words were addressed to the Church at Thessalonica. Paul is clear in identifying the time frame of the "man of sin." It was someone of their day--THEY knew who restrained him.

The timing is plain and simple. Jesus returned in the lifetime of those disciples. Jesus declared and His inspired writers and Apostles repeated it. If it did not happen the way that you insist it must happened, perhaps you should re-evaluate your concept of how those things transpired within the established time frame--A. D. 30 - A. D. 70.

You're not hearing me.

Time is a created illusion, the key component of the restraint by Him who restrains, placed upon revelation, knowledge, and understanding. Yes, you have many things correct about the timing of all things, but you are missing what was sealed until now--"time no longer"--given to me alone. That historic time of Christ was only the heart of revelation made manifest, the apex of the whole of all time, times, and half a time. So, no, we are not agreeing, because I have not been speaking of anything that is mine, except that it was given to me to declare in accordance with the Holy Spirit not speaking what is His own but is Christ's regarding these times also foretold.

The end specifically spoken of by Daniel and Christ was also the glory spoken of by Paul which would not glory in at that time, for he was the beginning at the end of that generation, not the end. The end, which is indeed the end of the age and of the world was uttered by the seven thunders, then sealed before John, to remain so until the end of this present age, before the sounding of the seventh angel, fulfilling and finishing the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets.

If you can receive it, these things are all written. But the church has come under strong delusion, and many will not awaken from it until their passing. The question is, “Are you still sleeping and resting?"

 

[rebuilder 454]

All this error.
A good question, I suppose, since the Jesus already came farce has infiltrated, is did we all miss the GWT judgement as well????

Cue rod sterling.

 

[rebuilder 454]

News flash!

Jesus already came.

Only 3 people on the planet are aware of it!!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Let's see....Jesus came back in AD 70.
...but Rev was written in AD 90.
So that entire book is a farce

 

[WPM]

All this error.
A good question, I suppose, since the Jesus already came farce has infiltrated, is did we all miss the GWT judgement as well????

Cue rod sterling.

?

 

[WPM]

Time is a created illusion, the key component of the restraint by Him who restrains, placed upon revelation, knowledge, and understanding. Yes, you have many things correct about the timing of all things, but you are missing what was sealed until now--"time no longer"--given to me alone. That historic time of Christ was only the heart of revelation made manifest, the apex of the whole of all time, times, and half a time.

Time is a reality. It was created by God. The creation of the sun and moon helped mark out time for man. It exists. To think otherwise is to be delusional.

 

[HappyOma]

Let's see....Jesus came back in AD 70.
...but Rev was written in AD 90.
So that entire book is a farce

The Book of Revelaton was written PRIOR to A. D. 70. If you choose to take the late date, you still have the same TIME problem. Please point out the things that took place SHORTLY and were NEAR after A. D. 90 the fit the contents of the vision.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, respectfully, I would like to deal with specific passages of Scripture. You states things that I'm sure you have biblical references for, but I am left to try to figure out what they are. I'm confused about what you are expressing and why you are expressing it.

I have been alluding to scripture with the things I've been saying but they are probably just passages you haven't focused on or taken note of before.

First I better give you these below that you asked about in an earlier post, when I wasn’t able to get to it. I don’t know your background or denomination or whether you have received the Holy Spirit since you believed, but we need to rely on the Lord, His Spirit, for illumination and understanding, and not the natural mind per se:

Pro 3:5-6

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

1Co 2:12-16

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Jhn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Rom 8:5-7

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, respectfully, I would like to deal with specific passages of Scripture. You states things that I'm sure you have biblical references for, but I am left to try to figure out what they are. I'm confused about what you are expressing and why you are expressing it.

Salvation is first to the Jew, then the Gentile……..but also so is judgment to the Jew first then the Gentile. The Jews were visited with wrath and judgment in the first century, but the Gentiles (world) havent’ been judged yet. (So I think we could say He came a second time to the Jews, but not yet the Gentiles, as I’m thinking of it.)


Rom 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.


Rom 2:7-11

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (this is speaking of judgment)

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.

I believe that so much of what is written in the bible, was to the Jew first, then the Gentile…..it is like a key or principle that helps us to understand what the Spirit is saying to the church (which is mostly Gentile – as Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles when he saw that Israel was still rejecting it) through the scriptures.

 

[HappyOma]

I have been alluding to scripture with the things I've been saying but they are probably just passages you haven't focused on or taken note of before.

First I better give you these below that you asked about in an earlier post, when I wasn’t able to get to it. I don’t know your background or denomination or whether you have received the Holy Spirit since you believed, but we need to rely on the Lord, His Spirit, for illumination and understanding, and not the natural mind per se:

Pro 3:5-6

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

1Co 2:12-16

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Jhn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Rom 8:5-7

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That is not what I was asking for, Lizbeth. I wanted you to try to support your suppositions with Scripture. You have given general statements that could apply to several if not many passages.

As for my study of the Scriptures, I have both formal and personal training. I graduated from Grace Theological Seminary in 1988 (Magna Cum Laude). I studied both Greek and Hebrew and did exegetical papers using those languages. The bulk of my learning, however, has come from five decades plus of personal study, using the skills I learned in seminary.

I have always provided you with biblical support for my concepts--giving you verses in context and presenting my indepth study of significant words. Apparently, because I disagree with you, my skills in Bible study and my dependence upon the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit must be questioned. Why is that, Lizbeth?

The Spirit of God does not do the work for us. He guides our study--if we will let Him. We are all called to be WORKERS, rightly dividing the word of truth so that we will not be ashamed (2 Tim. 2:15). I do that every time I diligently investigate the context of a passage and do necessary words studies and cross-referencing. I ALWAYS ask the questions: Who, what, when, where, why, and how. And when I debate with others, I show my work and not unsupported opinions or paradigms.

Having communicated with you now for a little while, I observe that you do not do that. You post numerous concepts and suppositions that you have gathered from many different passages but do not disclose them. When I, therefore, cannot ascertain where you are pulling them from, you question whether I am knowledgeable about the Scriptures! Not only that, you make veiled assumptions that I am not following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and proceed to provide Scriptures that are apparently meant to encourage me to do so.

For example, I would never have posted the verses you posted. You took them all out of context in order to use them as a debate tool. Because you did that, I must wonder whether you are now accusing me of being the led by the "natural man" with a "carnal mind" and not with the "mind of Christ." I disagree with you, so I am "leaning" of my own "understanding"? Also, I am apparently not as wise and spiritually awake and savvy as you because I apparently do not have the Holy Spirit since I believed. Everyone gets the Holy Spirit WHEN he believes.

Lizbeth, I seek conversaton based upon Scripture in its context and with the use of fundamental hermeneutical skills. Can we do that and not resort to accusing others of not having the Holy Spirit when we disagree with them on something?

Thanks!

 

[HappyOma]

Scripture for this judgment of the Gentiles?

Rom 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

This was accomplished in Paul's own day when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles and many were saved. God made of the two (Jew and Gentile) "one new man" (Eph. 2). Paul addressed this clearly when he spoke predominantly to the Gentile believers in His letter to the Church at Ephesus. In chapter 2, he addresses them as "you Gentiles in the flesh." They were called the "uncircumcision" by the "circumcision." e reminded them that they have once been "separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." In Christ Jesus, they who had been "far off" had been brought near by the "blood of Christ." God made both Jew and Gentile one by breaking down the "middle wall of diversity." Christ created in Hmself ONE NEW MAN in the place of the TWO.

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Again, you give no reference. I am assuming that you are referring to Romans 2: This is a general statement about anyone who does evil. The point of this entire chapter, a continuation of his thoughts in chapter 1, is to address the Jews who thought their circumcision made them special. Paul shames them by pointing out that the Gentiles, without circumcision and without the law, were doing the things of the law. It was the "doers of the law" and not the "hearers of the law" who would be justified. Paul told those Jews that they were without excuse because they were doing the very things for which they judged others.

The tribulation and judgment "upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentiles" pertains to the same tribulation and judgment and the same time of glory. The key is the "every man." Paul nowhere indicates some separate time of judgment for the Jew and the Gentile. Being first does not require that being next is separated by an expanse of time. Jesus stated that when "the Son of Man" came with His mighty angels in the GLORY of HIs Father, He would "repay every man" according to His works (Mat. 16:27). This is a single judgment. Jesus declared that the timing of it would be at His coming in His kingdom. "There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM" (Mat. 16:28). He came in His kingdom to THEM in THEIR day and judged every man according to his works.

 

[ScottA]

Time is a reality. It was created by God. The creation of the sun and moon helped mark out time for man. It exists. To think otherwise is to be delusional.

Reject what you will, it's not from me, but from God...what the seven thunders uttered, now revealed.

 

[ScottA]

This was accomplished in Paul's own day when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles and many were saved.

NOT ALL the gentiles. Do you not know that that just as the Son was three day in the heart of the earth to recover the dead, He also recovered the living, including those yet unborn?

 

[Lizbeth]

Disagree. Mystery Babylon and her merchants have nothing to do with Israel in the first century. Do you even know what the merchandises in Revelation 18 signifies? These has spiritual signification that points to Gospel. So who are the merchants of the Gospel since the Cross BEFORE she has become Babylon the Great? Have you considered about that?


I see that you lack the ability to quote Scripture to support your belief about what is going to happen.


"Renewed evangelism", "saving of a remnant of Jewish Souls", and "Massive second harvest of Jewish souls" are talking about the same thing, which is part of false premillennialism dispensational doctrine. So again, I ask for Scripture support for "renewed evangelism for Jewish souls". Where?


"I think..." "If they use..." "if a false messiah...." Sounds a lot more like speculation than Gospel Truth.


Scripture please!


Show us in Scirpture that the Gospel can be "reversed" back to Israel.


"Remember Paul said." "Remember Bible said." "Remember God said." No, you need to learn to quote chapter and verse to prove your doctrine, to see if you know what you are talking about. And don't forget the context is important too.



Of course, it's wrong. I know for a fact that this is not what Scripture said. But again, you need to quote Scripture before you explain your belief.


I understand some took offense when I responded to false doctrine using Scripture, but truth isn't always comfortable. What I continue to see in your posts are personal opinions, speculations, and assumptions, yet not a single chapter or verse to support them. If you claim the Bible is your authority, then quote it. Don't sell me your opinions—sell me the Truth, and I may buy it if confirmed by Scripture. But without the authority of God’s Word with what you are selling, it’s clear you’re not offering the Truth at all.

You complained the first time that I was "teaching" falsely. Now you are complaining that I am not bringing scriptures. Doesn't seem consistent. Meanwhile I see that you have brought not one scripture to correct where you think I am in error, and I have no idea what you believe about anything, other than that you don't like my posts. Just to let you know that I'm very much about the scriptures....I have a long history of quoting scripture after scripture while underlining pertinent parts and have even had people complaining about my "scripture bombs" on forums. In any case in a discussion or conversation people are free to share their own thoughts as well as scriptures are they not? You yourself just shared numerous thoughts criticizing my post without any scripture.

FYI - the bible says the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and shows us things to come........everything that is to come is not written explicitly in scripture and the Lord is not limited and confined to scripture in the things He shows us, however, anything He shows us will either be in scripture, or if not, it certainly will not contradict the things that are written or violate the principles that are therein.

 

[Lizbeth]

That is not what I was asking for, Lizbeth. I wanted you to try to support your suppositions with Scripture. You have given general statements that could apply to several if not many passages.

As for my study of the Scriptures, I have both formal and personal training. I graduated from Grace Theological Seminary in 1988 (Magna Cum Laude). I studied both Greek and Hebrew and did exegetical papers using those languages. The bulk of my learning, however, has come from five decades plus of personal study, using the skills I learned in seminary.

I have always provided you with biblical support for my concepts--giving you verses in context and presenting my indepth study of significant words. Apparently, because I disagree with you, my skills in Bible study and my dependence upon the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit must be questioned. Why is that, Lizbeth?

The Spirit of God does not do the work for us. He guides our study--if we will let Him. We are all called to be WORKERS, rightly dividing the word of truth so that we will not be ashamed (2 Tim. 2:15). I do that every time I diligently investigate the context of a passage and do necessary words studies and cross-referencing. I ALWAYS ask the questions: Who, what, when, where, why, and how. And when I debate with others, I show my work and not unsupported opinions or paradigms.

Having communicated with you now for a little while, I observe that you do not do that. You post numerous concepts and suppositions that you have gathered from many different passages but do not disclose them. When I, therefore, cannot ascertain where you are pulling them from, you question whether I am knowledgeable about the Scriptures! Not only that, you make veiled assumptions that I am not following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and proceed to provide Scriptures that are apparently meant to encourage me to do so.

For example, I would never have posted the verses you posted. You took them all out of context in order to use them as a debate tool. Because you did that, I must wonder whether you are now accusing me of being the led by the "natural man" with a "carnal mind" and not with the "mind of Christ." I disagree with you, so I am "leaning" of my own "understanding"? Also, I am apparently not as wise and spiritually awake and savvy as you because I apparently do not have the Holy Spirit since I believed. Everyone gets the Holy Spirit WHEN he believes.

Lizbeth, I seek conversaton based upon Scripture in its context and with the use of fundamental hermeneutical skills. Can we do that and not resort to accusing others of not having the Holy Spirit when we disagree with them on something?

Thanks!

I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. Do you not agree with my post in principle about relying on the Holy Spirit and not on our own understanding and natural mind? That is all scriptural. And have you received the Holy Spirit? or are you perhaps cessationist? Those are not accusations but sincere questions. I'm trying to ascertain where you're coming from theologically, especially with respect to the Holy Spirit. Baptist? Mormon? JW? Messianic? Pentecostal?

 

[Lizbeth]

This was accomplished in Paul's own day when the Gospel went out to the Gentiles and many were saved. God made of the two (Jew and Gentile) "one new man" (Eph. 2). Paul addressed this clearly when he spoke predominantly to the Gentile believers in His letter to the Church at Ephesus. In chapter 2, he addresses them as "you Gentiles in the flesh." They were called the "uncircumcision" by the "circumcision." e reminded them that they have once been "separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." In Christ Jesus, they who had been "far off" had been brought near by the "blood of Christ." God made both Jew and Gentile one by breaking down the "middle wall of diversity." Christ created in Hmself ONE NEW MAN in the place of the TWO.

Amen, I agree.

Again, you give no reference. I am assuming that you are referring to Romans 2: This is a general statement about anyone who does evil. The point of this entire chapter, a continuation of his thoughts in chapter 1, is to address the Jews who thought their circumcision made them special. Paul shames them by pointing out that the Gentiles, without circumcision and without the law, were doing the things of the law. It was the "doers of the law" and not the "hearers of the law" who would be justified. Paul told those Jews that they were without excuse because they were doing the very things for which they judged others.

I did quote chapter and verse for that passage. And yes I agree with the general context, but do you not agree also that we often need "ears to hear" what the Spirit is saying and "eyes to see"? God is not always confined and limited to the exact literal context with everything He wants to reveal and convey. There are things He hides in scripture, according to His will and wisdom. But I have a hunch you don't agree with these things, since you don't seem to know what I'm talking about with them (but please correct me if I'm wrong).

The tribulation and judgment "upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentiles" pertains to the same tribulation and judgment and the same time of glory. The key is the "every man." Paul nowhere indicates some separate time of judgment for the Jew and the Gentile. Being first does not require that being next is separated by an expanse of time. Jesus stated that when "the Son of Man" came with His mighty angels in the GLORY of HIs Father, He would "repay every man" according to His works (Mat. 16:27). This is a single judgment. Jesus declared that the timing of it would be at His coming in His kingdom. "There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM" (Mat. 16:28). He came in His kingdom to THEM in THEIR day and judged every man according to his works.

"Every" and "all" often means everything or all within a subset. You yourself maintain that these things were written to and about the Jews, which I agree with. Just that I also believe (subject to testing and correction if necessary) that there is another depth or layer where these scriptures are speaking first to the Jews, but also speak and apply afterwards to the Gentiles. I can't prove it to you, time will tell. But I don't think it can be proven false either. I'm certainly open to the Lord correcting me though. You know, it occurs to me that Jesus didn't go around proving the truth of what He was saying........people either had ears to hear and receive, or they didn't. Truth is like that.