Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. The resurrection of the unsaved dead is mentioned in Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29. It couldn't be more clear.
When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.
- Thread starter Scott Downey
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Get a clue! Verse 24 happens at His second coming, mentioned just prior to that. Christ's second coming is when the end will come and the dead in Christ will be resurrected at that time. There is no third resurrection mentioned there. That is 100% pure nonsense.
LOL! Yes, it does. Now you're thinking like a Premil. Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think you can be taken seriously when you try to add a gap of time between His coming and the end? If so, think again. If there was, then Paul would have indicated that, but he did not.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
All those Jewish tribe members of "those who pierced Him" who were still alive to see Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 mourned and gnashed their teeth on that occasion. That is because they saw all the prophets and the righteous and the fathers entering the kingdom of God, with themselves "thrust out" of that bodily resurrection event. "Lord, lord" they would be pleading as they saw themselves shut out of participation in that resurrection with the "door" shut so that they could not join them. (Luke 13:25-29). They later died in the besieged city by starvation, the sword, or plague, or were taken captive by the Romans. That means "those who pierced Him" who saw the returning Christ in AD 70 will be judged in the next final resurrection in our future, since they did not take part in the second resurrection in AD 70.
No, the "END" does not take place at the second resurrection of "those who are Christ's at His coming". The Greek terms Paul used in this text do NOT allow that. Please check a Greek dictionary for the word "THEN". If Paul had intended for the "END" to take place at the same point when the second resurrection takes place, the Greek word used would be "tote", which means "at that same time". That is NOT the Greek word which shows up in verse 24. The word used for "then" in verse 24 is "epeita", which indicates yet another additional item added to a list of consecutive things. I already went over this in reply # 413 above.
Do you (and your heretical friends) never get sick of your fixation with AD70 and the coming of Titus? Christian are different. They are focused on the cross and the glorious future return of Jesus Christ.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Christ said the fate of the wicked was to "perish", unlike the believers who "shall NOT perish", either body or soul. The mortal remains of the wicked dead never leave the dust of the grave, contrary to the children of God who DO bodily rise in a changed form made immortal and incorruptible. Only the souls of the wicked dead are judged by God, and consequently perish in that judgment. By the end of the final judgment in our future, God intends to completely purge His universe of all remnants of human evil so that they no longer exist.
This is a ridiculous question, similar to asking "do you still beat your wife?" Personally, my focus is on correctly understanding God's words in the Scriptures that He gave us. My entire eschatology paradigm circles around Christ and the "FIRST resurrection" event, which is the hub of the wheel around which all prophecy revolves. And I most certainly am anticipating the future resurrection event when my mortal remains will be changed, "like unto His glorious body", in a face-to-face fellowship with my Lord. It's more than a thousand years away, but I am willing to wait.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Is there something you don't understand about the references to the resurrections of some, who are called the "unjust" in Acts 24:15 and are said to be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt" and "damnation" in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29?
What unbelievers will experience is called "the second death" (Rev 20:14-15). That is not annihilation, but rather a separation from the Lord's presence (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The word death refers to separation. Physical/bodily death results in the separation of the soul and spirit from the body and does not result in the annihilation of the body. Similarly, the second death will result in separation from the Lord, not annihilation.
Please don't respond to more than one person in the same post because that can cause unnecessary confusion. After quoting your post I can't see that you responded to anyone else but me, so I thought what you were saying here was directed towards me at first until I looked at your post and saw you were responding to WPM.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The souls of the "unjust" wicked dead (but not their mortal remains in the grave) rise to be judged in the "resurrection to destruction". That is what the word "damnation" means. Psalms 1:5 tells me that "the wicked shall not stand in the judgment". Their dead bodies are left to disintegrate in the dust of the grave, which is totally contrary to the blessed state of the righteous, whose mortal remains are given immortality and incorruptibility in the resurrection to life.
The "second death" is not a second physical death experience for humans, even for the wicked. Nobody dies twice physically. Not even the wicked. Remember the "ONCE TO DIE" rule in Hebrews 9:27, which is not just an inconsequential statement which can be disposed of at any whim.
The "second death" was the second time that the city of Jerusalem died in the AD 70 period, similar to its first death under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC. In AD 70, the city of Jerusalem was burning from one end to an other, and from a distance truly appeared to be a "Lake of Fire" in those final days of its destruction.
AD 70 was the second time that "Death and Hell" (the grave) came to plague and overcome the inhabitants of the city of Jerusalem. Death and Hell also came to overcome the inhabitants of Jerusalem under the Babylonian invasion period, as found in Isaiah 28:14-19.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Give me a break. The souls of the unjust wicked dead are not dead, so they would not be resurrected. Only people's bodies will be resurrected when Christ returns and that includes the unjust wicked dead.
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
What is in the grave? Dead bodies. So, it will be the bodies of the unjust wicked dead that are resurrected "to be condemned". Not disintegrated. Looks like you haven't asked God for wisdom yet (James 1:5-7). Can you please do that?
Hello? When did I say it's a second physical death experience? Nowhere. Read what I say, not whatever your strawman is telling you. The second death results in separation from the Lord (2 Thess 1:9), not in the physical death of the body. Death is separation. In the case of physical death, it is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body.
LOL. Why can you not understand the concept of general rules that can have exceptions? Stop being so rigid.
Goodness gracious. You just don't even read scripture, apparently. The second death relates to those whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15), not the city of Jerusalem. Wow.
Yawn. You have so many crazy ideas in your active imagination. I feel sorry for you. Scripture is much more simple than you make it out to be.
What? The reader can go back on this board and view your posts and see your dangerous fixation (and that of your fellow Full Preterists) with AD70 and the coming of Titus. That is all you want to talk about. This exposes your heresy.
Well, all the wicked dead according to the New Covenant are raised and stand before God in the judgment, which directly challenges you.
And the second death is being cast into the lake of fire. Nothing to do with Jerusalem, Rome or Babylon. Those places are gone along with the earth at the judgment.
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Psalm 1
4 The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing to do with standing up as in on your feet!
It refers to that they will be perish, they wont be found to have any 'legal standing', no right to life, they are unworthy of eternal life.
They shall be felled, and fall into the pit.
Acts 13
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
4 The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing to do with standing up as in on your feet!
It refers to that they will be perish, they wont be found to have any 'legal standing', no right to life, they are unworthy of eternal life.
They shall be felled, and fall into the pit.
Acts 13
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Myths, tall tales and false teaching are the food of fools.
Proverbs 26
As snow in summer and rain in harvest,
So honor is not fitting for a fool.
2 Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow,
So a curse without cause shall not alight.
3 A whip for the horse,
A bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the fool’s back.
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
6 He who sends a message by the hand of a fool
Cuts off his own feet and drinks violence.
7 Like the legs of the lame that hang limp
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
8 Like one who binds a stone in a sling
Is he who gives honor to a fool.
9 Like a thorn that goes into the hand of a drunkard
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
10 [a]The great God who formed everything
Gives the fool his hire and the transgressor his wages.
11 As a dog returns to his own vomit,
So a fool repeats his folly.
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.
13 The lazy man says, “There is a lion in the road!
A fierce lion is in the streets!”
14 As a door turns on its hinges,
So does the lazy man on his bed.
15 The lazy man buries his hand in the [c]bowl;
It wearies him to bring it back to his mouth.
16 The lazy man is wiser in his own eyes
Than seven men who can answer sensibly.
17 He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own
Is like one who takes a dog by the ears.
18 Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death,
19 Is the man who deceives his neighbor,
And says, “I was only joking!”
20 Where there is no wood, the fire goes out;
And where there is no [d]talebearer, strife ceases.
21 As charcoal is to burning coals, and wood to fire,
So is a contentious man to kindle strife.
22 The words of a [e]talebearer are like [f]tasty trifles,
And they go down into the [g]inmost body.
23 Fervent lips with a wicked heart
Are like earthenware covered with silver dross.
24 He who hates, disguises it with his lips,
And lays up deceit within himself;
25 When [h]he speaks kindly, do not believe him,
For there are seven abominations in his heart;
26 Though his hatred is covered by deceit,
His wickedness will be revealed before the assembly.
27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it,
And he who rolls a stone will have it roll back on him.
28 A lying tongue hates those who are crushed by it,
And a flattering mouth works ruin.
Proverbs 26
As snow in summer and rain in harvest,
So honor is not fitting for a fool.
2 Like a flitting sparrow, like a flying swallow,
So a curse without cause shall not alight.
3 A whip for the horse,
A bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the fool’s back.
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
6 He who sends a message by the hand of a fool
Cuts off his own feet and drinks violence.
7 Like the legs of the lame that hang limp
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
8 Like one who binds a stone in a sling
Is he who gives honor to a fool.
9 Like a thorn that goes into the hand of a drunkard
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
10 [a]The great God who formed everything
Gives the fool his hire and the transgressor his wages.
11 As a dog returns to his own vomit,
So a fool repeats his folly.
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.
13 The lazy man says, “There is a lion in the road!
A fierce lion is in the streets!”
14 As a door turns on its hinges,
So does the lazy man on his bed.
15 The lazy man buries his hand in the [c]bowl;
It wearies him to bring it back to his mouth.
16 The lazy man is wiser in his own eyes
Than seven men who can answer sensibly.
17 He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own
Is like one who takes a dog by the ears.
18 Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death,
19 Is the man who deceives his neighbor,
And says, “I was only joking!”
20 Where there is no wood, the fire goes out;
And where there is no [d]talebearer, strife ceases.
21 As charcoal is to burning coals, and wood to fire,
So is a contentious man to kindle strife.
22 The words of a [e]talebearer are like [f]tasty trifles,
And they go down into the [g]inmost body.
23 Fervent lips with a wicked heart
Are like earthenware covered with silver dross.
24 He who hates, disguises it with his lips,
And lays up deceit within himself;
25 When [h]he speaks kindly, do not believe him,
For there are seven abominations in his heart;
26 Though his hatred is covered by deceit,
His wickedness will be revealed before the assembly.
27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it,
And he who rolls a stone will have it roll back on him.
28 A lying tongue hates those who are crushed by it,
And a flattering mouth works ruin.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The souls of the wicked dead are raised to stand before God in the judgment - but not their physical bodies. Isaiah 26:14 tells us this about the bodies of the wicked dead. "They are dead, they shall NOT LIVE; they are deceased, they shall NOT RISE: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." This is in direct contrast to the bodies of the righteous dead who belong to God, including the body of Isaiah himself in Isaiah 26:19. "THY dead men SHALL LIVE, together with my dead body SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." The fate destined for the dead bodies of the wicked are a totally different case from the dead bodies of the righteous which DO RISE out of the dust of the grave.
The "second death" / aka the "Lake of Fire" was a localized first-century phenomena in the city of Jerusalem. I'm sure you remember the "furnace of fire" in which there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth at the "completion of the age" (Matt. 13:37-42). "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Isaiah 31:9 tells us where this "furnace" and this "fire" was located. God's "fire is in Zion, and His furnace IN JERUSALEM."
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Stop this nonsense already. The souls of the wicked dead are not dead. I guess you believe in soul sleep then? Clearly, verses like Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 refer to the resurrection of the BODIES of the wicked dead that are currently in the dust and in the graves, not their souls. You have no understanding whatsoever.
You are impossible to take seriously. Is Revelation 20:15 in your Bible? The second death/lake of fire is for all those whose names are not written in the book of life. It has absolutely nothing to do with first century Jerusalem. Let me know if you ever want to be serious about scripture because, at this point, you clearly are not.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
It's too bad that you don't wish to take seriously the Scripture references I am submitting. Jerusalem was the site for the "furnace of fire" / "Lake of Fire" / "second death". God said through Isaiah 31:9 that His fire was in Zion and His furnace in Jerusalem. Death and Hell were thrown into the city of Jerusalem for the second time in the AD 66-70 conflagration of the city. This was comparable to when OT Jerusalem had its covenant with Death and Hell disannulled, so that they were overcome of those plagues when the overwhelming scourge swept through the city under the Babylonian invasion which caused Jerusalem's first death in 586 BC.
I never wrote that the souls of the wicked dead are dead, anymore than the souls of the righteous are dead. No soul sleep at all going on while the dead bodies of both the just and unjust lie in the grave. "The Lord knoweth how to...reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 2:9). The language of Isaiah 26:14 and Isaiah 26:19 puts a clear distinction between what happens to the dead bodies of the wicked in contrast to those of the righteous. The dead bodies of the wicked don't rise, but the dead bodies of the righteous do rise. But the souls of both answer in the judgment according to their works.
Last edited:
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I do. 100%. And I completely disagree with your interpretations of them. Deal with it.
Then why are you talking about their souls being resurrected?
Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29 say that the dead bodies of the wicked will be resurrected. You are denying obvious truth here. I really feel sorry for you. I don't know what caused you to have such a lack of spiritual discernment, but it's sad to see. Ask God for wisdom if you want to actually know the truth about these things (James 1:5-7).
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The souls of all the dead in the OT times were retained in what Scripture called Sheol. When Christ arose, He left Sheol and took a "multitude of captives" with Him (as in Ephesians 4). I believe from Scripture that this means all the souls of the righteous dead were raised from Sheol to be in heaven at that point. Also, the soul of every saint who "died in the Lord from henceforth" after that resurrection of Christ also immediately went to heaven. Paul taught "absent from the body....present with the Lord", which was the case in the days of the early church, as it still is today for believers.
Not so with the souls of the wicked dead who were left in Sheol when Christ arose. They remained there until AD 70, when those souls of the wicked dead from creation until that time were raised to heaven to be judged before God's throne, with their physical mortal remains being left to disintegrate in the dust of the grave (as Isaiah 26:14 taught). By not having the covering of Christ's righteousness, their souls were also destroyed in that "resurrection to destruction".
Sheol since AD 70 has been filling up again with the souls of the wicked dead who are retained there until the next resurrection in our future, at which time the souls of this last group of wicked dead from post-AD 70 will also be raised for judgment. And once again, the souls of the wicked dead will receive a "resurrection to destruction", with their dead bodies left to disintegrate in the dust of the grave.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Verses like Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29 very clearly have to do with the resurrection of bodies from the dust and the grave, not the raising of souls to heaven to be judged. I don't think I can continue addressing your nonsense any longer. It's a waste of time. Thanks for the discussion, but I just can't take any more of this.
He is willfully ignorant. This is heresy. Not only is he deceived, but he is wanting to deceive others.
Similar threads
