When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[WPM]

Matthew 24:3 uses "sunteleia/synteleia".

And? What is your point?

What about all my points?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "all nations" and their contexts leaves no reason to believe that the meaning and scope of "all nations" was any different between Christ's and Paul's use of it.

I believe the context of Matthew 24:4-14 does not allow for that to be the case. The context of Matthew 24:4-14 is in relation to a coming global event and not a coming local event, as I showed in the last 2 paragraphs of post 674.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "all nations" and their contexts leaves no reason to believe that the meaning and scope of "all nations" was any different between Christ's and Paul's use of it.

Do you believe that Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "the end" (telos) is any different? If so, why would their use of the words "all nations" need to be in the same context, but not their use of the words "the end"?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Not only did they both refer to "the end", but they both said "then the end will come", so they both indicated exactly when "the end will come". To me, that relates the time when the gospel has been preached to all nations directly to the time when Jesus comes.

 

[WPM]

Matthew 24:3 uses "sunteleia/synteleia".

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming [Gr. parousia], and of the end [Gr. sunteleías or completion, or consummation] of the world [Gr. aion]?”

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is indeed also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

In Matthew 24, Jerusalem was on the cusp of experiencing utter destruction, including the removal of their temple (the center of their religious worship). Moreover, that loss would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 as they stood in front of the still-standing temple complex.

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the actual end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It refers to the completion. It is the termination point of a thing.

When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then theologians universally agree it is talking about “the beginning” of time/this age/creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this, many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason probably is because it cuts across a lot of end-time theology they have been taught. However, both should be treated similarly.

As I said above, unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

 

[covenantee]

I believe the context of Matthew 24:4-14 does not allow for that to be the case. The context of Matthew 24:4-14 is in relation to a coming global event and not a coming local event, as I showed in the last 2 paragraphs of post 674.

Here's the entirety of my previous post, which furnishes additional Scriptural evidence.

Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "all nations" and their contexts leaves no reason to believe that the meaning and scope of "all nations" was any different between Christ's and Paul's use of it.
Christ's prophecy encompassed the time frame from when He issued it to the period approaching 70 AD, which also encompassed the time frame in which Paul wrote.
As Christ prophesied, the preaching of the gospel to all nations, confirmed by Paul, was then followed by the end of OT Jerusalem and Israel by their destruction in 70 AD.
Christ had commissioned His disciples to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15
They obeyed and succeeded in less than a generation.
Paul reconfirms it here: "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:23

This does not describe only a coming local event. It describes a coming event which was global in every sense of the word -- the preaching of the Gospel to all nations and every creature of that day.

Theologian Albert Barnes concurs with Christ's words:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world - The evidence that this was done is to be chiefly derived from the New Testament, and there it is clear. Thus Paul declares that it was preached to every creature under heaven Colossians 1:6, Colossians 1:23; that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world Romans 1:8; that he preached in Arabia Galatians 1:17, and at Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum Romans 15:19. We know also that He traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul, Romans 15:24-28. At the same time, the other apostles were not idle; and there is full proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

 

[WPM]

Do you believe that Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "the end" (telos) is any different? If so, why would their use of the words "all nations" need to be in the same context, but not their use of the words "the end"?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Not only did they both refer to "the end", but they both said "then the end will come", so they both indicated exactly when "the end will come". To me, that relates the time when the gospel has been preached to all nations directly to the time when Jesus comes.

Excellent thoughts. This is indeed supporting Scripture with Scripture. Very good!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's the entirety of my previous post, which furnishes additional Scriptural evidence.

Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "all nations" and their contexts leaves no reason to believe that the meaning and scope of "all nations" was any different between Christ's and Paul's use of it.
Christ's prophecy encompassed the time frame from when He issued it to the period approaching 70 AD, which also encompassed the time frame in which Paul wrote.
As Christ prophesied, the preaching of the gospel to all nations, confirmed by Paul, was then followed by the end of OT Jerusalem and Israel by their destruction in 70 AD.
Christ had commissioned His disciples to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15
They obeyed and succeeded in less than a generation.
Paul reconfirms it here: "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Colossians 1:23

This does not describe only a coming local event. It describes a coming event which was global in every sense of the word -- the preaching of the Gospel to all nations and every creature of that day.

Theologian Albert Barnes concurs with Christ's words:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world - The evidence that this was done is to be chiefly derived from the New Testament, and there it is clear. Thus Paul declares that it was preached to every creature under heaven Colossians 1:6, Colossians 1:23; that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world Romans 1:8; that he preached in Arabia Galatians 1:17, and at Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum Romans 15:19. We know also that He traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul, Romans 15:24-28. At the same time, the other apostles were not idle; and there is full proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

You're not really addressing my argument, though, which deals with more than just Matthew 24:14 itself. Jesus spoke of global things in Matthew 24:4-14 and not just things related to Jerusalem or Israel. What would have been His point in referring to global events such as wars, earthquakes and famines in other nations, as being signs of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem rather than being signs of an approaching global event like the second coming of Christ at the end of this temporal age?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Excellent thoughts. This is indeed supporting Scripture with Scripture. Very good!

Thank you, I appreciate that. I wonder if covenantee agrees with you about this?

 

[WPM]

Thank you, I appreciate that. I wonder if covenantee agrees with you about this?

I have no doubt he agrees with the principle. I just think he is misinterpreting the text in question.

 

[dad]

Do you believe that Christ's and Paul's use of the identical expression and words "the end" (telos) is any different? If so, why would their use of the words "all nations" need to be in the same context, but not their use of the words "the end"?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Not only did they both refer to "the end", but they both said "then the end will come", so they both indicated exactly when "the end will come". To me, that relates the time when the gospel has been preached to all nations directly to the time when Jesus comes.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

As I see it, the scene here is that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. Later, at some point, believers also get raised. Then, after we get raised the end comes. The end then is not our end. It is the end for the world's kingdoms and rule. In the 1000 year rule, Jesus of course puts down all worldly rule and power. So the end in this passage refers to after we are raised and Jesus puts down the kingdoms and rule of the world. By the time He returns, He already will have delivered us believers at the Rapture to heaven, (the Father) He also delivers the new tribulation believers when He returns to rule.

In Mat 24 it also refers to this time

 

[WPM]

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

As I see it, the scene here is that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. Later, at some point, believers also get raised. Then, after we get raised the end comes. The end then is not our end. It is the end for the world's kingdoms and rule. In the 1000 year rule, Jesus of course puts down all worldly rule and power. So the end in this passage refers to after we are raised and Jesus puts down the kingdoms and rule of the world. By the time He returns, He already will have delivered us believers at the Rapture to heaven, (the Father) He also delivers the new tribulation believers when He returns to rule.

In Mat 24 it also refers to this time

There is no mention of your supposed future millennium in this text. You have to add it onto Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

As I see it, the scene here is that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. Later, at some point, believers also get raised. Then, after we get raised the end comes. The end then is not our end. It is the end for the world's kingdoms and rule. In the 1000 year rule, Jesus of course puts down all worldly rule and power. So the end in this passage refers to after we are raised and Jesus puts down the kingdoms and rule of the world. By the time He returns, He already will have delivered us believers at the Rapture to heaven, (the Father) He also delivers the new tribulation believers when He returns to rule.

In Mat 24 it also refers to this time

This is hard to follow. What exactly are you saying "the end" refers to in 1 Cor 15:24 and when exactly do you think it occurs in relation to the second coming of Christ?

It seems that you're saying that "the end" does not come about immediately at the second coming of Christ, but it takes 1000 years to bring about "the end"? If so, why would it take that long for Jesus to do that? Won't He "put down all worldly rule and power" by way of destroying all of His enemies when He returns as scripture says He will do (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev 19:17-18)?

 

[dad]

There is no mention of your supposed future millennium in this text. You have to add it onto Scripture.

Context. Scripture tells us it comes after He returns. We know all rule will be put down then. We know this is also after we are raised to the Father. There is nothing mysterious about the passage and nothing that opposes Mt 24. On the contrary.

 

[dad]

This is hard to follow. What exactly are you saying "the end" refers to in 1 Cor 15:24 and when exactly do you think it occurs in relation to the second coming of Christ?

The end is not our end, we have no end. The end refers to the end of the kingdoms and rule of this world. We know when Jesus rules here and does all that. It is after He returns. The passage says every man in his own order will be raised, and Jesus was the first. After that, when we all are raised, the end comes. Not our end of course. The end is referring to the world and the rule of mankind under Satan. So, in relation to His return, the end comes after. It is comprised of two things in the verse. One, is after we are raised and the other is when He then puts down all other rule. How is this in any way hard to follow?

It seems that you're saying that "the end" does not come about immediately at the second coming of Christ, but it takes 1000 years to bring about "the end"?

No. Do you think any kingdom or ruler will be left when He returns to earth that is in power any more? Of course not. Every knee will bow soon.

 

[WPM]

Context. Scripture tells us it comes after He returns. We know all rule will be put down then. We know this is also after we are raised to the Father. There is nothing mysterious about the passage and nothing that opposes Mt 24. On the contrary.

Where is your evidence?