When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Zao is life]

I don't disagree with the concept of OT types that foreshadowed NT antitypes. I am simply saying I don't agree with the idea that any verse or passage in the Olivet Discourse or of any other prophecy referenced in the NT as having a future fulfillment could have more than one future fulfillment. So, for example, Matthew 24:15-21 has only one fulfillment.

We'll keep talking past each other from now on,

because IMO no part of Matthew 24:19-22 can possibly be referring to 70 AD, because of the way the whole passage is tied to the end of the age - from the repeated use of the word τότε, to the grammar linking everything together from verse 9 with the words "and", τότε, "for", "therefore" etc, which are correct translations from the Greek:

[Strongs Greek] 5119 τότε
from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753; the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):--that time, then. see GREEK for 3753. see GREEK for 3588

That word is used in quite a few verses in the passage:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

Regarding being deceived:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The reason Jesus warns them to take heed that no man deceive them becomes obvious later in His sermon:

ALL NATIONS: 9 τότε shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And τότε shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
ALL NATIONS: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and τότε shall the end come.
15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) τότε let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20-21 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For τότε shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The elect: 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 τότε if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Regarding being deceived:

The elect: 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The elect: 31 And τότε he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect are present in verses 22, 24, and 31 - but the elect were already present in verses 4, 5 and 13:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
​

So we will keep talking past one another from this point, because IMO the entire Matthew 24:9-31 passage has only one fulfillment - and it's not 70 AD (I can't read a separation of verses 15-22 into it the way you do).

Also, IF Jesus HAD answered their question about when the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed, it would have been mentioned somewhere in the epistles.

Luke 21 ALSO speaks of birth-pain signs of the end of the age, signs in the heavens at the time of Christ's return, and the disciples being persecuted.

But Luke ALSO speaks about the gathering of armies against Jerusalem, calling it God's wrath coming upon its inhabitants, and telling the disciples in Judea to flee when they see it happening. ​

If we allow for more than one fulfillment of that prophecy or any other prophecy that had not yet been fulfilled and still had a future fulfillment in NT times then where does that concept end?

So IMO IF what you say holds true even regarding Luke 21:20-24, then it means that those who live in that area AND who are alive when Jesus returns will have two witnesses telling them to flee - armies gathered around Jerusalem to attack it, and the man of sin in the church (the AoD in the holy place), because what you say means that Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the same gathering of armies of the nations against Jerusalem mentioned by the prophet Zechariah in chapter 14 of his book.

I just can't read into Matthew 24 a separation of Matthew 24:15-22 from the rest of the text the way you can - especially because IMO you're only doing it to get Matthew 24 to comply with the belief that Jesus in fact answered their question regarding the temple in Jerusalem, and that it refers to 70 A.D.​

 

[Zao is life]

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

As I see it, the scene here is that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. Later, at some point, believers also get raised. Then, after we get raised the end comes. The end then is not our end. It is the end for the world's kingdoms and rule. In the 1000 year rule, Jesus of course puts down all worldly rule and power. So the end in this passage refers to after we are raised and Jesus puts down the kingdoms and rule of the world. By the time He returns, He already will have delivered us believers at the Rapture to heaven, (the Father) He also delivers the new tribulation believers when He returns to rule.

In Mat 24 it also refers to this time

Is the part I made bold a typo?

 

[WPM]

We'll keep talking past each other from now on,

because IMO no part of Matthew 24:19-22 can possibly be referring to 70 AD, because of the way the whole passage is tied to the end of the age - from the repeated use of the word τότε, to the grammar linking everything together from verse 9 with the words "and", τότε, "for", "therefore" etc, which are correct translations from the Greek:

[Strongs Greek] 5119 τότε
from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753; the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):--that time, then. see GREEK for 3753. see GREEK for 3588

That word is used in quite a few verses in the passage:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

Regarding being deceived:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The reason Jesus warns them to take heed that no man deceive them becomes obvious later in His sermon:

ALL NATIONS: 9 τότε shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And τότε shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
ALL NATIONS: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and τότε shall the end come.
15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) τότε let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20-21 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For τότε shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
​

The context of Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20 is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

 

[dad]

LOL. Are you eyes painted on? Once the second coming occurs, and the redeemed are rescued and the wicked destroyed, it is THE END. Hello!

Hi. Yes, just as the verse says. Is there something new in your catching the drift on that?

There is no sin-cursed goat-infested death-blighted in the text.

Why mention it then?

It is in your head. You are adding onto Scripture again.

Except I never mentioned your goat nonsense at all.

 

[dad]

Is the part I made bold a typo?

No. It refers to people coming to faith after the Rapture in the tribulation

 

[WPM]

We'll keep talking past each other from now on,

because IMO no part of Matthew 24:19-22 can possibly be referring to 70 AD, because of the way the whole passage is tied to the end of the age - from the repeated use of the word τότε, to the grammar linking everything together from verse 9 with the words "and", τότε, "for", "therefore" etc, which are correct translations from the Greek:

[Strongs Greek] 5119 τότε
from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753; the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):--that time, then. see GREEK for 3753. see GREEK for 3588

That word is used in quite a few verses in the passage:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

Regarding being deceived:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The reason Jesus warns them to take heed that no man deceive them becomes obvious later in His sermon:

ALL NATIONS: 9 τότε shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And τότε shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
ALL NATIONS: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and τότε shall the end come.
15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) τότε let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20-21 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For τότε shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The elect: 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 τότε if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
​

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Whatever people are in view in whatever location (the Bible says Jerusalem and Judea not Johannesburg or Jaffa), they are limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day” (Saturday). This certainly isn't a restriction to American Christians, maybe Israeli ones. Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one fleeing the great tribulation? Simple. Because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. At the time of Jesus the Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath; therefore flight from the city on that day would have been extremely difficult. How can the Futurists serious relate such a restriction (1) to the Church and (2) the period preceding "the end of the age"? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.

 

[WPM]

No. It refers to people coming to faith after the Rapture in the tribulation

How about a rapture passage that teaches your invented tribulation period?

 

[dad]

Not so! He overruns your imaginary future millennium and leads billions of satanists to surround Christ and God's people. What a bust! What a sad indictment on your perfect rule!

That is not rule so much as insanity and a hopeless puny effort.

 

[Zao is life]

This is hard to follow. What exactly are you saying "the end" refers to in 1 Cor 15:24 and when exactly do you think it occurs in relation to the second coming of Christ?

It seems that you're saying that "the end" does not come about immediately at the second coming of Christ, but it takes 1000 years to bring about "the end"? If so, why would it take that long for Jesus to do that? Won't He "put down all worldly rule and power" by way of destroying all of His enemies when He returns as scripture says He will do (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev 19:17-18)?

Jesus is the Son of man.

Notice how the bold parts below allude to God's purpose for creating mankind:

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Psalm 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

Hebrews 2
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now (nyn: of this present time) we see not yet all things put under him.​

9 But (of this present time) we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It commences here:

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign unto the ages of the ages.​

 

[Davidpt]

We'll keep talking past each other from now on,

because IMO no part of Matthew 24:19-22 can possibly be referring to 70 AD, because of the way the whole passage is tied to the end of the age - from the repeated use of the word τότε, to the grammar linking everything together from verse 9 with the words "and", τότε, "for", "therefore" etc, which are correct translations from the Greek:

[Strongs Greek] 5119 τότε
from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753; the when, i.e. at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution):--that time, then. see GREEK for 3753. see GREEK for 3588

That word is used in quite a few verses in the passage:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

Regarding being deceived:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The reason Jesus warns them to take heed that no man deceive them becomes obvious later in His sermon:

ALL NATIONS: 9 τότε shall they deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And τότε shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
ALL NATIONS: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and τότε shall the end come.
15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) τότε let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20-21 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For τότε shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The elect: 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 τότε if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Regarding being deceived:

The elect: 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The elect: 31 And τότε he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect are present in verses 22, 24, and 31 - but the elect were already present in verses 4, 5 and 13:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
​

So we will keep talking past one another from this point, because IMO the entire Matthew 24:9-31 passage has only one fulfillment - and it's not 70 AD (I can't read a separation of verses 15-22 into it the way you do).

Also, IF Jesus HAD answered their question about when the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed, it would have been mentioned somewhere in the epistles.

Luke 21 ALSO speaks of birth-pain signs of the end of the age, signs in the heavens at the time of Christ's return, and the disciples being persecuted.

But Luke ALSO speaks about the gathering of armies against Jerusalem, calling it God's wrath coming upon its inhabitants, and telling the disciples in Judea to flee when they see it happening. ​

So IMO IF what you say holds true even regarding Luke 21:20-24, then it means that those who live in that area AND who are alive when Jesus returns will have two witnesses telling them to flee - armies gathered around Jerusalem to attack it, and the man of sin in the church (the AoD in the holy place), because what you say means that Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the same gathering of armies of the nations against Jerusalem mentioned by the prophet Zechariah in chapter 14 of his book.

I just can't read into Matthew 24 a separation of Matthew 24:15-22 from the rest of the text the way you can - especially because IMO you're only doing it to get Matthew 24 to comply with the belief that Jesus in fact answered their question regarding the temple in Jerusalem, and that it refers to 70 A.D.​

Apparently, the way @Spiritual Israelite and some others interpret 'τότε' at the beginning of verse 23 is that nothing previously mentioned explains it. That nothing previously mentioned is pertaining to the same context that verses 23-26 are involving. As in, once verses 15-21 are fulfilled, what's recorded in verses 23-26 follow at a later time. It's obvious why they need to do this. Because if they were to admit that verses 23-26 are involving the same era of time verses 15-21 are involving, they can then no longer keep insisting verses 15-21 are involving the first century and 70 AD. Obviously, what verses 23-26 is involving have zero to do with what happened leading up to and in 70 AD. On a side note, I'm not sure how Preterists fit verses 23-26 into their view? But apparently they do somehow.

By doing so, they, not meaning Preterists, invent another tribulation of days the text knows nothing of. Instead of verse 29 meaning the tribulation of days involving verses 15-26, they only have it meaning verses 23-26, a different tribulation of days, a tribulation of days that follow sometime after verses 15-21 are fulfilled first. As if it's reasonable that the nearest antecedent of the tribulation of those days in verse 29 is not verses 15-21, including verses 23-26, but is verses 23-26, excluding verses 15-21, being the nearest antecedent.



Obviously, no one is ever going to convince a Preterist that they are not interpreting all of Matthew 24 correctly. Except @Spiritual Israelite is not a Preterist, yet one can't convince him either, that he too is not interpreting all of Matthew 24 correctly.

Let alone what I argue above and what you argued per your post. Based on verse 14 alone it doesn't make sense for Jesus to then connect verses 15-21 with the first century and 70 AD. As if that is somehow relevant to verse 14. It might be if the end meant in verse 14 is not meaning the end of this age. Except it is, and even @Spiritual Israelite admits that it is.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

So, Adam was a guardian cherub, was he? LOL.

Yes, If you understand what cherub is. Go read the article link i posted. I knew you refused because of your pride which explained why you asked a elementary question.

By the way im vacationing on the island of Bali.

 

[Zao is life]

Apparently, the way @Spiritual Israelite and some others interpret 'τότε' at the beginning of verse 23 is that nothing previously mentioned explains it. That nothing previously mentioned is pertaining to the same context that verses 23-26 are involving. As in, once verses 15-21 are fulfilled, what's recorded in verses 23-26 follow at a later time. It's obvious why they need to do this. Because if they were to admit that verses 23-26 are are involving the same era of time verses 15-21 are involving, they can then no longer keep insisting verses 15-21 are involving the first century and 70 AD. Obviously, what verses 23-26 is involving have zero to do with what happened leading up to and in 70 AD. On a side note, I'm not sure how Preterists fit verses 23-26 into their view? But apparently they do somehow.

By doing so, they, not meaning Preterists, invent another tribulation of days the text knows nothing of. Instead of verse 29 meaning the tribulation of days involving verses 15-26, they only have it meaning verses 23-26, a different tribulation of days, a tribulation of days that follow sometime after verses 15-21 are fulfilled first. As if it's reasonable that the nearest antecedent of the tribulation of those days in verse 29 is not verses 15-21, including verses 23-26, but is verses 23-26, excluding verses 15-21, being the nearest antecedent.

Obviously, no one is ever going to convince a Preterist that they are not interpreting all of Matthew 24 correctly. Except @Spiritual Israelite is not a Preterist, yet one can't convince him either, that he too is not interpreting all of Matthew 24 correctly.

Let alone what I argue above and what you argued per your post. Based on verse 14 alone it doesn't make sense for Jesus to then connect verses 15-21 with the first century and 70 AD. As if that is somehow relevant to verse 14. It might be if the end meant in verse 14 is not meaning the end of this age. Except it is, and even @Spiritual Israelite admits that it is.

I agree. IMO it's a very obvious (obvious to me) example of mentally inserting something into a text in scripture that is not meant to be inserted, and does not belong there, in order to get it to comply with a preconceived belief.

I stand to correction but I think that because Preterists have Christ returning "spiritually" in 70 A.D, they have no problem at all linking the Olivet Discourse and the time of the end mentioned in verse 14, to 70 A.D - whether in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, they have the Olivet Discourse in its entirety referring to 70 A.D and the days leading up to 70 A.D . If Christ "returned" in 70 A.D or His Kingdom came in 70 A.D and there's nothing left for the future, then the Olivet Discourse - all of it - refers to the final years leading up to 70 A.D, and to 70 A.D itself.

I'm not sure anymore (and I really don't ever want to be reminded by any Preterist) of how they manage to get around THE FACT that the resurrection mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (as well as by Jesus in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54) has NOT occurred, and so Christ cannot have returned. For me it's enough to debate with non-Preterists who have Matthew 24:15 referring to the temple in Jerusalem and to 70 A.D, without trying to debate a Preterist.​

 

[Zao is life]

No. It refers to people coming to faith after the Rapture in the tribulation

The word tribulation is always referring to what the saints will endure at the hands of unbelievers and at the hand of the beast in the New Testament, though. So I don't buy a pre-trib rapture.

But often I think maybe you "pre-trib" guys are conflating the word tribulation with the word wrath.

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Tribulation: There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

Second mention: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21

Third mention: "After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15.

First mention: "For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22

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* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):
​

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

* The Revelation uses the words orge and thumos (wrath) to describe what is to come upon the nations at the hand of an angry God (not the word tribulation).​

****************************​

 

[dad]

The word tribulation is always referring to what the saints will endure at the hands of unbelievers and at the hand of the beast in the New Testament, though. So I don't buy a pre-trib rapture.

The post Rapture saints. We are outta here.

But often I think maybe you "pre-trib" guys are conflating the word tribulation with the word wrath.

Same thing, because the tribulation involves the wrath of God

Tribulation: There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Yes the world is going to go through the tribulation.

* The Revelation uses the words orge and thumos (wrath) to describe what is to come upon the nations at the hand of an angry God (not the word tribulation).

****************************​

It is in that time. Why quibble for nothing?

 

[Davidpt]

But often I think maybe you "pre-trib" guys are conflating the word tribulation with the word wrath.

Apparently, even non-Pretribbers do that at times as well. In Luke 21 Jesus calls it wrath. In Matthew 24 He calls it tribulation. If Luke's account is involving unbelieving Jews, that would mean the wrath is God's wrath.

If the tribulation in Matthew 24 is involving persecuting the church, obviously one can't apply God's wrath in that case. Except some deny that the tribulation in Mathew 24 is pertaining to tribulation of the church. As if there is no such thing as great tribulation pertaining to the church.

3 different views per the following, yet they all have this in common, great tribulation is involving being upon unbelieving Jews.

@Spiritual Israelite interprets Matthew 24:15-21 to be pertaining to tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the first century.

Preterists interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to be pertaining to tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the first century.

Pretribbers interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to be pertaining to tribulation of unbelieving Jews in the 21st century after the church has been raptured first.

They all think great tribulation is upon the Jews. None of them think it's upon the church. Meaning in the Discourse. But somehow, between these 3 views above, one of these views is correct? How about this instead? Between these 3 views above, none of these views is correct?

Imagine this, the fact the Discourse involves events pertaining to the first century through His return. Except Jesus was completely silent in the Discourse in regards to Revelation 7:9, 14. That the alleged tribulation of the Jews is a greater tribulation than it is of the church. As if something local can surpass something global in greatness. Clearly, no matter how you look at it, the greatest tribulation this world will ever see is meaning the one recorded in Matthew 24:21. And that some insist this is a local tribulation and that it is greater than a global one. They have things backwards. That's what doctrinal bias will do to one at times.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Anyone that takes the former to be involving 70 AD better not dare insist the latter one is greater, the fact the former already plainly says this---For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not---no, nor ever shall be. What part of this--no, nor ever shall be---are some failing to comprehend? It clearly means it can't be equaled nor surpassed in greatness.

 

[covenantee]

You're not really addressing my argument, though, which deals with more than just Matthew 24:14 itself. Jesus spoke of global things in Matthew 24:4-14 and not just things related to Jerusalem or Israel. What would have been His point in referring to global events such as wars, earthquakes and famines in other nations, as being signs of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem rather than being signs of an approaching global event like the second coming of Christ at the end of this temporal age?

Still trying to dispel the disbelief that the Gospel was preached to all nations in Paul's era. There's no point continuing until we get past that.

More evidence:

• Apostle Peter who, after visiting Milan, had "passed over to the island of Britain, now called England, (where) he spent many years and turned many erring Gentiles to faith in Christ";
• Apostle Aristobulus (brother of St. Barnabas), who is called the Apostle of Britain and who was its first bishop; and
• Apostle Simon the Canaanite and Zealot. In these Islands, the Celtic Church had shone forth - especially during the glorious period known as the "Age of Saints" when its missionaries preached throughout much of Europe, becoming 'Equals to the Apostles'.
• Apocryphal legend claims that Joseph of Arimathea accompanied the Apostle Philip, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene & others on a preaching mission to Gaul. citation needed.
• Eusebius of Caesarea, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and father of ecclesiastical history wrote: "The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Britannic Isles."

 

[Scott Downey]

Still trying to dispel the disbelief that the Gospel was preached to all nations in Paul's era. There's no point continuing until we get past that.

More evidence:

• Apostle Peter who, after visiting Milan, had "passed over to the island of Britain, now called England, (where) he spent many years and turned many erring Gentiles to faith in Christ";
• Apostle Aristobulus (brother of St. Barnabas), who is called the Apostle of Britain and who was its first bishop; and
• Apostle Simon the Canaanite and Zealot. In these Islands, the Celtic Church had shone forth - especially during the glorious period known as the "Age of Saints" when its missionaries preached throughout much of Europe, becoming 'Equals to the Apostles'.
• Apocryphal legend claims that Joseph of Arimathea accompanied the Apostle Philip, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene & others on a preaching mission to Gaul. citation needed.
• Eusebius of Caesarea, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and father of ecclesiastical history wrote: "The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Britannic Isles."

Are you referring to Nations as the known world of kingdoms of men?
Because the entire New World of North and South America, had no visit from Christians in the first few centuries.
There were Indian tribal peoples all through the Americas, with their many languages, cultures, customs, laws, societies, wars and bloody cultic sacrifices.

Not sure about Asia, such as Japan, Indonesia, Australia, China, India. Likely many of them never heard of Christ, and the Pacific Islanders.

 

[WPM]

That is not rule so much as insanity and a hopeless puny effort.

No, that is your coming earth. It is a debacle.

 

[WPM]

Still trying to dispel the disbelief that the Gospel was preached to all nations in Paul's era. There's no point continuing until we get past that.

More evidence:

• Apostle Peter who, after visiting Milan, had "passed over to the island of Britain, now called England, (where) he spent many years and turned many erring Gentiles to faith in Christ";
• Apostle Aristobulus (brother of St. Barnabas), who is called the Apostle of Britain and who was its first bishop; and
• Apostle Simon the Canaanite and Zealot. In these Islands, the Celtic Church had shone forth - especially during the glorious period known as the "Age of Saints" when its missionaries preached throughout much of Europe, becoming 'Equals to the Apostles'.
• Apocryphal legend claims that Joseph of Arimathea accompanied the Apostle Philip, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene & others on a preaching mission to Gaul. citation needed.
• Eusebius of Caesarea, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and father of ecclesiastical history wrote: "The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Britannic Isles."

Peter to Britain? Where is your evidence? This is sounding like BI evidence.

 

[covenantee]

Peter to Britain? Where is your evidence? This is sounding like BI evidence.

What kind of evidence do you need?

I've cited the multiple sources. Undoubtedly there are more. For those which may be incorrect, there are others which are correct.

Ultimately it's Paul whom you would need to prove incorrect.