"When did the RCC begin?"

[H. Richard]

Which "studies" would that be? How about you post the name of the books.

Logical Problems with the Constantine Founder Myth:

• If Constantine started the Catholic Church, then it would, therefore, seem to follow that Constantine himself was a Catholic Christian. This was not the case. Constantine (possibly) would not be baptized into the faith until he was on his deathbed on May 22, 337 A.D.
• For Christianity to become the official religion of the Roman Empire, would require an Edict. The Edict of Milan, which was issued by Constantine and Licinius (as noted above) only put Christians on equal footing with all the other recognized religions in the Roman Empire; granting the same religious freedom that was already being extended to the pagans and Jews. It would not be until 392 A.D. when Emperor Theodosius removed government support from the old Roman pagan religions and established the Christian Faith (Catholicism) as the sole religion of the empire.

3. If by virtue of Constantine calling a general council of all the bishops of the Church to meet with him at Nicaea (a resort town in the hills of Asia Minor just south of Constantinople), a Church was created, it then, therefore, follows that:
(a) the Church that existed prior to the Council from which all the bishops were called merged themselves into the new church of Constantine;
(b.) we should see no continuity between the preexisting church and the new Church;
(c) we should see no continuity between the pre-Nicaea Church and modern day Catholic Church.

4. That Constantine assembled together all of the bishops of the Roman Empire proves that there were well-organized dioceses and churches prior the First Council of Nicaea who were in agreement with each other. Further research into this area will demonstrate the precise areas in which they agreed, such as the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, about many of the books which were thought to be inspired Scripture, and the Bishop of Rome being the successor of Peter and the head of the universal Church.[/size]

5. 218 years before the Council of Nicaea Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, appointed by Saint Peter, wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans in which he used the word ‘Catholic’ to denote the Church established by Jesus Christ:

• “Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people also be: as Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

6. 170 years before the Council of Nicaea Saint Justin Martyr wrote in First Apology (a letter to pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161 A.D.) explaining what Christians did at Mass).

7. 136 years before the Council of Nicaea Saint Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, and a disciple of Saint Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John, proclaimed that all churches must be in unity with the Church of Rome, which was established by Peter and Paul.

8. Prior to the Council of Nicaea there had been many local councils where local bishops, priests, and deacons gathered to issue canons to the faithful; such as the Councils of Carthage, where Saint Cyprian presided at the Seventh Council in 256 A.D. where a canon was issued stating, [/size]“. . . heretics, who are called antichrists and adversaries of Christ, when they come to the Church, must be baptized with the one Baptism of the Church, so that friends may be made of adversaries, and Christians of antichrists.” Another example of the Council of Elvira, Spain in 300 A.D. where 19 bishops and 26 priests and deacons gathered together to issue 81 canons. Canon 16 stated, “Heretics, if they do not which to come over to the Catholic Church, are not to be given Catholic girls in marriage.” Therefore, how could Constantine have started the Catholic Church in 325 A.D. if it already existed in Africa and Spain in 256 and 300 A.D.???

The Romans were aficionados when it came to documenting the legal affairs and history of the Empire. If it had been the case that Constantine established his own state religion or established a new state Church, we would have been able to find it documented somewhere in history that such an event happened, but when we examine the history and legal documents from ancient Rome, we find no traces that the myth that Constantine founded the Catholic Church is true.[/size]

Moreover, if Constantine did found the Catholic Church at the First Council of Nicaea then we should be able to find at least some once reference to the Roman Emperor in the creed and canons of the Council, but in the Creed of Nicaea and in its Twenty Canons nothing was mentioned about the Roman Emperor. Nothing at all.

Those who posit that Constantine founded the Catholic Church either with the Edict of Milan or by calling together the First Council of Nicaea are unable prove their claim. There is no documentation from that time, either explicit or implicit by historian or theologian that even hints that such an event transpired or was the intention of Constantine or the bishops of the Catholic Church to transpire.
This story, most famously told by Jehovah's Witnesses and Fundamentalist Protestants, came out of their necessity to support their lie that there was an apostasy in the early Church. It is their way to explain how their reform and late arrival is justifiable. The myth is that because the Church of the Apostles fell in to apostasy, a remnant of the true and orthodox believers of Jesus remained hidden from and often persecuted by the Catholic Church until THEY brought the reform and true faith back. Prior the rise of Protestantism, no one ever dared to tell this lie. Only in the space of the unintelligent, uncurious, and hostile can such a myth and lie bear fruit.
Sources:
* Jurgen, William A. The Faith of the Early Fathers. Volume One. The Liturgical Press. Collegeville, Minnesota. 1970
* Lasseter Rollin A. ed. Light to the Nations. Part One. Catholic Textbook Project. 2014.
___________________________________________

I tried to reply to this three times and hit the wrong key and lost it because the new windows 10 seems to have a mind of it's own.

So let me try again.

You want me to show the names of the books. I'll bet you also want the copyright date too. If I had one of those books you would say it was a lie anyway so I am really not concerned

Can you remember the names of the books you studied in grade school? I can't. Besides that was about 70 years ago.

If you really wanted to study world history you would see that what I have said it true. But I know you will only accept the newer versions of world history that has been modified to be PC. Perhaps you might find an older version in a library.

 

[H. Richard]

it's pretty ironic... someone accusing 1 billion or more people he/she doesn't even know.. of being anti-Christ

all the while calling people names and hating away like mad...

that would be LOL if it weren't so pathetic... and if Hell did not loom around the corner...

If you will remember Jesus said few find it. In the future the whole world will be following the anti-Christ church. Seems to me that would include more than your 1 billion people.

 

[epostle1]

I tried to reply to this three times and hit the wrong key and lost it because the new windows 10 seems to have a mind of it's own.

So let me try again.

You want me to show the names of the books. I'll bet you also want the copyright date too. If I had one of those books you would say it was a lie anyway so I am really not concerned

Can you remember the names of the books you studied in grade school? I can't. Besides that was about 70 years ago.

If you really wanted to study world history you would see that what I have said it true. But I know you will only accept the newer versions of world history that has been modified to be PC. Perhaps you might find an older version in a library.

You can remember Constantine myths from 70 years ago without being influenced by today's propaganda that does not hold up to logic? Your sources have been exposed as frauds.

What you have said is not supported by scholarly documentation, or common sense. I accept only history written by a Ph.D. with no bias or agendas. http://www.christian-history.org/nicea-myths.html < a non-Catholic site giving a fair treatment of Constantine.

 

[Mungo]

LOL...you are in denial...read Revelation carefully and you will see the scarlet and purple beast being the pagan Roman system, and the woman riding the beast is none other than the Roman church...read it and weep if you must!

Read the link in post #14

 

[heretoeternity]

Read the link in post #14

You stick to reading the Bible and Revelation 17 and never mind you worldly "links" and doctrines...

 

[H. Richard]

You can remember Constantine myths from 70 years ago without being influenced by today's propaganda that does not hold up to logic? Your sources have been exposed as frauds.

What you have said is not supported by scholarly documentation, or common sense. I accept only history written by a Ph.D. with no bias or agendas. http://www.christian-history.org/nicea-myths.html < a non-Catholic site giving a fair treatment of Constantine.

The documentation I remember is the facts, not the dates. Since all you will accept has to be written by a Ph.D and of course only those Ph.D that support your church doctrine you will never see anything anyone writes that is in opposition to the RCC doctrines.

Therefore you will never be able to see what God wants you to see in His words (scriptures). What I tried to make you see is that all through history religious men have used religion to elevate themselves above others and gain power for themselves. But you will not hear it.

Read about the Indian religions in south America before the Spaniards came. They were pagan and some use human sacrifice.

There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. You only believe the doctrines of the RCC which is led by men who sin just as the rest of us do. You are like those that put their heads in the sand so that they will not see. As for your statement that you will only read what a Ph.D says they I suppose you don't hear the 12 either. They did not have a Ph.D. Let me remind you as Paul reminded has converts, not many wise men of this world are called. And as the scriptures tell us, not many will listen, therefore not many will find the true path to heaven.

Now you will claim that the RCC delivered the Pagan out of their Paganism into the RCC. Yes they did but all the Indians did was exchange one form of religion to another one. The new one made slaves out of them to mind gold for the Spanish.

People look at the sea when it is calm and say how beautiful it is. But that is like religion. Underneath it is kill or be killed, eat and be eaten. Religious people look at religion and say ' oh how beautiful are their rituals and buildings. They do not see how those things came about.

 

[mjrhealth]

How many of the disciples where learned men?/ One if I am correct. Saul. who came after Christs resurection, and what was teh first thing Jesus said to Him?/

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

And what was it he said after His eyes where opened,

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Yet still many think they can figure out God

and it says of men

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

As for the wise

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[H. Richard]

How many of the disciples where learned men?/ One if I am correct. Saul. who came after Christs resurection, and what was teh first thing Jesus said to Him?/

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

And what was it he said after His eyes where opened,

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Yet still many think they can figure out God

and it says of men

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

As for the wise

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

A very good post!!!

 

[epostle1]

The documentation I remember is the facts, not the dates. Since all you will accept has to be written by a Ph.D and of course only those Ph.D that support your church doctrine you will never see anything anyone writes that is in opposition to the RCC doctrines.


I am not talking about Catholic doctrines, the Apostles, scripture, and not once did I say a qualified historian had to be Catholic. The source I gave in post #24 about Constantine is not a Catholic source. I demolished your Constantine myths and Mungo exposed your sources as frauds. The issue here is historical revisionism (which means making up history to support an agenda) and you came back with this:
If you really wanted to study world history you would see that what I have said it true. But I know you will only accept the newer versions of world history that has been modified to be PC. Perhaps you might find an older version in a library.

You got caught posting historical falsehoods and your response is meaningless. If you were smart you would just let it go.

Therefore you will never be able to see what God wants you to see in His words (scriptures). What I tried to make you see is that all through history religious men have used religion to elevate themselves above others and gain power for themselves. But you will not hear it.

What does that have to do with your Constantine myths? And there is or never was any sinners in Protestantism, all are perfect, holy Christians. all agreeing on the meaning and application of scripture, and Catholics are egotistical power hungry control freaks, is that what you mean? How did we ever manage to be the largest charity in the world??? You have a serious blind prejudice problem.

Read about the 10 million Aztecs who converted and the heavenly intervention that caused it. (which baffles scientists)http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-amazing-truth-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe.html

There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. You only believe the doctrines of the RCC which is led by men who sin just as the rest of us do. You are like those that put their heads in the sand so that they will not see. As for your statement that you will only read what a Ph.D says they I suppose you don't hear the 12 either. They did not have a Ph.D. Let me remind you as Paul reminded has converts, not many wise men of this world are called. And as the scriptures tell us, not many will listen, therefore not many will find the true path to heaven.

You can't defend your Constantine myths so you jump to 15th century South America? That's called a red herring. See the illustration above. You are running from the topic because you have been refuted, and too proud to admit it.



Now you will claim that the RCC delivered the Pagan out of their Paganism into the RCC. Yes they did but all the Indians did was exchange one form of religion to another one. The new one made slaves out of them to mind gold for the Spanish.

What does that have to do with your Constantine myths? This is another red herring.Catholics are attacked with remarkable regularity for supposed crimes against the native peoples of the New World. Much has been written, for example, about the demolition of the Meso-American cultures such as the Aztecs and the South American Andean civilization of the Incas by the Spanish Conquistadors, the severe oppression of the indigenous peoples, and the devastation delivered upon the Indian tribes across the Americas from displacement, disease, war, and slavery.


In truth, the plight of the Native Americans in North America was the source of great concern to the Church, and missionaries distinguished themselves for their heroic defense of Indian rights. There is no question that European colonialism wrought vast troubles for the tribes and cultures of the New World. But it is unfair to blame the Church for the actions of the European powers—who regularly punished the Jesuits, Franciscans, Augustinians, and countless priests, nuns, and laypeople for speaking out in defense of the suffering natives. John Tracy Ellis, one of the fathers of American Catholic historiography, wrote:

No informed person would endeavor to maintain that the churchmen were always in the right, but by the same token no one can deny that they were generally on the side of the angels in their treatment of the Indians. It was the outraged voice of the friar, Bartolomé de las Casas, which first made Europe aware of the fate that had befallen thousands of the natives in enslavement by the Spanish conquerors. As it was the agitation aroused by Las Casas and his kind that prompted Pope Paul III in 1537 to issue the bull Sublimis Deus (1537) in which he declared: "The said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ."
read more here: The Church and the Native Americans The Real Story

You want to blame the Church because certain Spaniards didn't listen or care. Any excuse will do, right?

People look at the sea when it is calm and say how beautiful it is. But that is like religion. Underneath it is kill or be killed, eat and be eaten. Religious people look at religion and say ' oh how beautiful are their rituals and buildings. They do not see how those things came about.

The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery - Christianity Today, a Protestant source
If I believed half the lies you do about the Catholic Church, I would hate her twice as much.
Everything that is true in your church came from the Catholic Church, so if we are wrong, then so are you.

 

[heretoeternity]

Thank you
i think the anti-Christ would tend to be anti-Christ

Catholics love Jesus, so i tend to think... could be wrong but tend to think that excludes them...


Jesus said in John 14.15 if you love me keep my commandments....does the Roman church keep His commandments ...Nope..they follow their own pagan doctrines...do they show love of Jesus..nope...

 

[epostle1]

"CATHOLIC" IN SCRIPTURE

CATHOLIC comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.
It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is neccessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

It is inferred in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world." That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.

Rom. 1:8 ….and you belong to that Church whose faith St. Paul describes as being "proclaimed (KATanggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)”

Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8

Acts 9:31 RSV "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied."

There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis" . Catholic.

"Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8, of 106 A.D.,

Undoubtedly the word was in use before the time of this writing over 250 years before Constantine was born, and a mere 11 years after St. John wrote Revelation.

Written records of the term "CATHOLIC" describing a character of the Christian Church:
Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 106 AD;
Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 155 AD;
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 202 AD;
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 251 AD;
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius, 254 AD

"Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart... When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name."
Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.


.

.

 

[heretoeternity]

Sounds good Kepka, but why doesn't your "catholic" Roman organization follow the Bible? I am sure you must know the many area which it departs from the Bible in preference for it's own man made doctrines, which of course JESUS condemns...do you still call yourself "Christian', or manybe should be papal follower right?

 

[mjrhealth]

Well the catholic church produces catholics just like the SDA church produces SDA's and the JW church JW's, you know they produce only after there kind, only Christ can produce Christians as we are after His kind. its a bit like Ford factories produce fords and Holden factories produce holde, have to change teh whole factory to prodcue teh other.

But I guess they miss this bit

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

But there doctrine bears witness that hey are children of the catholic church for of it they bear witness and call there Pope Father.

 

[Mungo]

Sounds good Kepka, but why doesn't your "catholic" Roman organization follow the Bible? I am sure you must know the many area which it departs from the Bible in preference for it's own man made doctrines, which of course JESUS condemns...do you still call yourself "Christian', or manybe should be papal follower right?

Like other Catholic bashers here you fail to give evidence for your claims.

No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts the Bible (properly interpreted).

 

[mjrhealth]

(properly interpreted).

Yes your church to suit there doctrines so the people will be slaves to there religion, and so you are. Even when it flies in teh face of the truth.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Yes your church to suit there doctrines so the people will be slaves to there religion, and so you are. Even when it flies in teh face of the truth.

yes, i am a slave of Jesus Christ and His Church... true nuf

 

[kerwin]

I would speculate that the Catholic Church did the same thing the Roman Empire did and separated into two administration Churches at the same time the Roman Empire did. The Eastern Orthodox later lost parts of itself that spun off into the various other Catholic Churches. I know that the Roman Catholic Church views the Eastern Orthodox as Christians though error on a number of points and I believe the opposite is true as well.

 

[H. Richard]

yes, i am a slave of Jesus Christ and His Church... true nuf

That is not what he said. He said slaves to their religion. You must be a religious person to think the churches are Christ. I do believe, in my opinion, that the leaders in the RCC think they are gods on earth.

 

[H. Richard]

Like other Catholic bashers here you fail to give evidence for your claims.

No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts the Bible (properly interpreted).

I reject the interpreted doctrines that the RCC have come up with. They are doctrines of sinful men. Just as the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to Paul the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the children of God.

Gal 1:11-12
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
NKJV

I will hear the words Paul penned in the scriptures because they are the words revealed to Paul by revelation and they don't need for a man to teach us his interpretation. We have the Holy Spirit.


John 14:26
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
NKJV


2 Cor 1:22
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
NKJV

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

 

[heretoeternity]

Jesus said "if you love me keep my Commandments" John 14.15 and in Matthew 19.17 "to enter into life keep the commandments" and He goes on to identify these as the Ten commandments of God. It seems the Roman church does NOT follow these, as well as many other so called "christians" posting on here...so pagan Rome has lots of company by so called "protestant" "christians".