When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[BreadOfLife]

all of them who believe, dont you believe?? You want a building you have one actually lots, towers to heaven like babylon. You see believers you see His church but

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co_3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

most importantly

1Co_3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co_3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

that says it all.

I'm not talking about a building.
I'm talking about a VISIBLE community.

So, I will ask you again:
If the Catholic Church is NOT the True Church - can you show me which one IS the True Church?

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have provided documentation, but it is 15 years old. I suggest you go to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity research at Gordon-Conwell Seminary. It estimates that in 2014 there were 45,000 denominations. If you pursue the research accumulated at Gordon-Conwell, you will find that the high number of denominations is linked to the same denomination in various countries. When this becomes one denomination, then the number is much reduced.

Do you know how many Roman Catholic sects there are?

Oz

There is only ONE Catholic Church made up of 20 Rites - the Roman or Latin Rite being ONE of them.
ALL are in communion as ONE Church. Now - there are several dissent groups that are not in communion with the Catholic Church.

As for there being 33,000 , 45,000 or 50,000 Protestant sects, let's just say there are 10,000 for sake of argument.
That's about 9,999 too many . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

As for there being 33,000 , 45,000 or 50,000 Protestant sects, l

Please dont feal so lonely for it says

Rev_17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

See they all came from you, mother must be proud.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm not talking about a building.
I'm talking about a VISIBLE community.

Are you short sited or something, it is people who make up His chruch not a religion, or is it you are so shrt sighted yoiu cant see people.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you short sited or something, it is people who make up His chruch not a religion, or is it you are so shrt sighted yoiu cant see people.

Yup - it IS people who make up His Church. People who believe in the SAME thing and teach the SAME doctrines.
Not a disjointed gaggle of tens of thousands of bickering sects who ALL teach different things yet ALL claim to have the "Truth."
That's NOT a Church - that's anarchy.

Christ's Church - the one He prayed for at the Last Supper - is ONE.
He prayed for the unity of that ONE Church - that they remain ONE as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:21-23).

He didn't pray for 50,000 or so disunited factions.
YOUR definition of "Church" is anti-Biblical.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Please dont feal so lonely for it says

Rev_17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

See they all came from you, mother must be proud.

And it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand Revelation because you don't understand the Biblical definition of the Church . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

And it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand Revelation because you don't understand the Biblical definition of the Church .

We can go on this forever but History has spoken and youir church looks nothing like His. But that is between you and Jesus when you have to answer for all teh lies.

SAME thing and teach the SAME doctrines.

Not your coctrines

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Your church like all the others are full of them

 

[epostle1]

We can go on this forever but History has spoken and youir church looks nothing like His. But that is between you and Jesus when you have to answer for all teh lies.

Not your coctrines

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Your church like all the others are full of them

Really? Where? Did you know all your verses apply to hypocritical Jews, and not to the Church? You quote wrecklessly.

 

[bbyrd009]

seems like the end of that would be "Anyone who claims Christ cannot be a hypocrite," so wadr that strikes me as a pretty self-serving way to approach the Book. Anyone who has a dollar in their pocket and a bill to pay must reflect upon their similarity to the whore, riding the beast, imo. We of course accept this as normal, having been in it from birth, but "leave the world" seems to suggest otherwise. Unless that passage is meant for someone else, too? I mean, where is the end of this "that verse cannot apply to believers, today?" Obviously it was originally written about the then-current batch of those who claimed they knew, and had Writ to back them up, but don't we have our own teaching for doctrines the commandments of men now? Doesn't every sect have a checklist of boxes that must be ticked to be considered accepted by God?

 

[BreadOfLife]

We can go on this forever but History has spoken and youir church looks nothing like His. But that is between you and Jesus when you have to answer for all teh lies.

Not your coctrines

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Your church like all the others are full of them

And again, you show your total ignorance of Scripture.

Jesus wasn't condemning Tradition. He lived by Jewish Tradition. He was condemning the Pharisees for their hypocrisy in using those traditions to usurp the will and word of God.

Paul tells us to "Hold Fast" to the Traditions they (the Apostles) taught - either by word of MOUTH - OR by Letter (2 Thess. 2:15).
He goes on to say that we should avoid anybody who does not live by those Traditions (2 Thess. 3:6).

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on ORAL TRADITION to quote an early Christian hymn - "awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light."

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

YOUR problem - like ALL Protestants is the unbiblical tradition of Sola Scriptura . . .

 

[tom55]

There is only ONE Catholic Church made up of 20 Rites - the Roman or Latin Rite being ONE of them.
ALL are in communion as ONE Church. Now - there are several dissent groups that are not in communion with the Catholic Church.

As for there being 33,000 , 45,000 or 50,000 Protestant sects, let's just say there are 10,000 for sake of argument.
That's about 9,999 too many . . .

As I stated in post #626: Some people today try to make a distinction between Catholic with a capital “C” and catholic with a small “c”, but such a distinction is a recent development and unheard of in the early Church.

Scripture and history clearly tells us there is only One True Church established by Jesus Christ with One Truth. Historically whe KNOW that that Church is The Catholic Church. There is only ONE pillar and foundation of Truth speaking as ONE voice and acting as ONE body just like scripture says.

Does anyone in this discussion deny that scripture says that The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Does anyone in this discussion deny that scripture says that we are to speak with one voice?

Scripture says that some people which are ignorant and unstable will twist scripture to their own destruction. Since the Catholic Church has been teaching the same thing for 2,000 years how are they twisting scripture?

 

[BreadOfLife]

As I stated in post #626: Some people today try to make a distinction between Catholic with a capital “C” and catholic with a small “c”, but such a distinction is a recent development and unheard of in the early Church.

Scripture and history clearly tells us there is only One True Church established by Jesus Christ with One Truth. Historically whe KNOW that that Church is The Catholic Church. There is only ONE pillar and foundation of Truth speaking as ONE voice and acting as ONE body just like scripture says.

Does anyone in this discussion deny that scripture says that The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Does anyone in this discussion deny that scripture says that we are to speak with one voice?

Scripture says that some people which are ignorant and unstable will twist scripture to their own destruction. Since the Catholic Church has been teaching the same thing for 2,000 years how are they twisting scripture?

[SIZE=10.5pt]Actually, this is incorrect.
First of all - in Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Smyrnaeans, he makes the following statement:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Now - even if you want to deny this quote, written while the Apostle John was presumable still alive - you cannot get past the next gem I'm going to show you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]In the 2nd century document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, we see the word “Catholic” again – but this time, in a much clearer context. Speaking of the early Church, the author of this document makes the following statement:[/SIZE]

“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came.”

[SIZE=10.5pt]IF[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] this was a mere description, the literal translation would be rendered as: “… the throughout whole catholic church throughout the world.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]This rendering of the words is gibberish in Greek OR English. This is clear evidence that the Church established by Jesus and the Apostles was indeed called The Catholic Church – as a TITLE – in the 2nd century and beyond and NOT simply a description.[/SIZE]

 

[mjrhealth]

YOUR problem - like ALL Protestants is the unbiblical tradition of Sola Scriptura . . .

Well get over it, See here is the new wine which is the Spirit and teh old wineskin which is religion. Jesus spoke of it a lot. Certainly from what you have said there is no new wine in your religion.Your church is full of tradition all of it catholic, Ive being through most of it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well get over it, See here is the new wine which is the Spirit and teh old wineskin which is religion. Jesus spoke of it a lot. Certainly from what you have said there is no new wine in your religion.Your church is full of tradition all of it catholic, Ive being through most of it.

And you continue to show your ignorance of Scripture.

The NEW wineskin is the Gospel of Jesus and the OLD wineskin is the Law of Moses.
And your false doctrine of Sola Scriptura is STILL a man made invention . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

And your false doctrine of Sola Scriptura is STILL a man made invention . . .

Hmm oh you mean it doesnt line up with your doctrines. Sorry i do better next time

 

[epostle1]

In addition:

….and you belong to that Church whose faith St. Paul describes as being "proclaimed (KATAnggeletai) in the whole universe (en HOLO to kosmo)” (Rom. 1:8)

"So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied." [Acts 9:31 RSV]
There the words "church throughout all" is translated from the Greek words "Ecclesia kata holis"

Thus the word KATAHOLOS or Catholic in English originated from Scriptures - Romans 1:8, Acts 9:31

The Catholic Church does not hold Protestants of today accountable for the separation of their forefathers.
CCC 817-820

 

[tom55]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Actually, this is incorrect.
First of all - in Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Smyrnaeans, he makes the following statement:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Now - even if you want to deny this quote, written while the Apostle John was presumable still alive - you cannot get past the next gem I'm going to show you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]In the 2nd century document, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, we see the word “Catholic” again – but this time, in a much clearer context. Speaking of the early Church, the author of this document makes the following statement:[/SIZE]

“When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came.”

[SIZE=10.5pt]IF[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] this was a mere description, the literal translation would be rendered as: “… the throughout whole catholic church throughout the world.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]This rendering of the words is gibberish in Greek OR English. This is clear evidence that the Church established by Jesus and the Apostles was indeed called The Catholic Church – as a TITLE – in the 2nd century and beyond and NOT simply a description.[/SIZE]

I agree with you: .... "the Church established by Jesus and the Apostles was indeed called The Catholic Church....".

And that Church is STILL called The Catholic Church. Currently, NO OTHER CHURCH IS. When other churches started popping up it had to distinguish itself by name so it retained THE TITLE of The Catholic Church. That is why Augustine wrote in the 4th Century: “[T]he very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani called “The Foundation”, 4, 5).

So we can clearly see that HISTORICALLY The Church was calling itself The Catholic Church BY NAME (not title only) at least by the middle of the 4th century to distinguish itself from other churches.

St Augustine's writings and theology was CLEARLY in line with Ignatius of Antioch who ALSO used the word CATHOLIC to describe The Church and BOTH of their theology clearly lines up with the current Catholic Church.

 

[bbyrd009]

So, do you not have to end at "Only Catholics are accepted" with this?

 

[epostle1]

So, do you not have to end at "Only Catholics are accepted" with this?

No. What we are saying is the Catholic Church is the historical Church that hasn't separated from anyone. Other churches have separated, some further away than others. Like I tried to explain with CCC 817-820 in post #676, Protestants are accepted as Christians.

"Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart... When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name."
Saint Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.

There were no Protestants in 375 AD.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hmm oh you mean it doesnt line up with your doctrines. Sorry i do better next time

Nope - and it doesn't even line up with Scripture.

Anything that cannot be defended by Scripture is false - lile Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.