When in Revelation the Rapture will occur

[keras]

I have told you and I have told you.
You don't get it.

The scene in Rev 7:9-17 is in God's Temple in Heaven as evidenced by the people before whom the Great Multitude are arrayed:
The Throne (of the Father).
The Lamb.
The four Living Creatures.
The 24 Elders.
The Angels.

They are all in Heaven. The Earth is about to be a seething cauldron of desolation.

Yes, that scene is a heavenly one. Even though heaven is NOT mentioned in Rev 7.
What you don't acknowledge, is that God is omnipresent. You have the childish idea of heaven being somewhere 'up there'. I have posted before that Ezekiel 1:1, and Stephen: Acts 8:56, saw God on His throne in heaven, while they were on earth.
So Rev 7 shows the multitude of Christians gathered into the holy Land, as the Prophets say is God's Plan; soon after the Sixth Seal disaster. A hit by a CME that the world will quickly recover from.

Re the martyrs in Rev 19:1-8, if you cared to look up the facts, you would see there have been several million martyrs since Stephen. Plenty enough to make a 'vast multitude' and it clearly states they praise God for taking vengeance for their blood. Your theory that they are the Church, living people taken to heaven, is simply wrong.

 

[Heb 13:8]

How many resurrections are you adding keras. :wacko:

 

[Heb 13:8]

I hope this simplifies things..https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_138.cfm

 

[rockytopva]

How many resurrections are you adding keras. :wacko:

And... How many scripture is he talking out of context? :wacko:

 

[Heb 13:8]

And... How many scripture is he talking out of context? :wacko:

It sounds complex to me, but I do believe he's on to something.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

I believe that the four horseman as follows...

1. White- Democracy
2. Red - Communism
3. Black - Islam
4. Pale - The Anti-Christ

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Revelation 7:9) occurs seven years before the time of Christs coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

Before Christ comes the Anti-Christ must be revealed...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Who....

16 ... causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13:16-18

These are my estimations regarding the rapture and coming of Christ Jesus... Rapture Christmas Day, 2053, Christ's Coming with the redeemed saints... Christmas Day, 2060. I cry along with Isaac Newton on these prophecies...

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

 

[Heb 13:8]

Not that hard.

1. Resurrection of the dead in Christ and rapture.
2. Resurrection of the dead, alive and martyrs after rapture at the end of 70th week.
3. Resurrection of the dead, alive after 1,000 years.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I have told you and I have told you.
You don't get it.

The scene in Rev 7:9-17 is in God's Temple in Heaven as evidenced by the people before whom the Great Multitude are arrayed:
The Throne (of the Father).
The Lamb.
The four Living Creatures.
The 24 Elders.
The Angels.

They are all in Heaven. The Earth is about to be a seething cauldron of desolation.

What are your thoughts on the resurrections. How many should there be for the dead, alive and martyrs before and after 1,000 years.

 

[idono]

The Last Trumpet is blown by God.
The Last Trumpet is named.
The Last Trumpet is an assembly call.
The Last Trumpet sounds the end of the Church Age.

The seventh Trumpet is blown by an Angel.
The seventh Trumpet is numbered.
The seventh Trumpet is an announcement call.
The seventh Trumpet concludes God's Wrath with the seven Bowls.

I hope this helps.

No, I don't think so. The trump of God doesn't mean the trumpet is blown by God, Maybe it is performed by angel. Read Revelation 11:15-18.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15 KJV)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

What are your thoughts on the resurrections. How many should there be for the dead, alive and martyrs before and after 1,000 years.

There are five times the Bible mentions two Resurrections to Heaven.
The order is always the same:

1. The First Resurrection is only for the righteous.
2. The Second Resurrection includes both righteous and wicked.

That's the simplest answer.
After that it gets complicated.

The First Resurrection is not declared until all applicable types of souls are "made alive" in their new, imperishable and immortal bodies.
This happens only at the end of the one 'seven' - after the battle at Armageddon.

The First Resurrection includes:

1. The Firstfruits of the Harvest - which by definition would be of the same type as the wheat: Christians: the 144,000
2. The Dead in Christ who are summoned BY GOD with the Last Trumpet.
3. The Elect who remain and are left after the Great Tribulation are gathered while still alive: the Rapture.
   • All three are done on the Day of the Lord which is coincidental with the sixth Seal.
4. Finally, the Martyrs are "made alive" - when their number is complete - and it is not complete until the Two Witnesses rise up.

The Second Resurrection includes:

1. The righteous "sheep" who live during the Millennium.
2. The wicked dead from the time of Cain to the end of the Millennium.

These are separated at the Great White Throne Judgment (Mt 25 + Rev 20).
.
.
Now there are some other complicating factors and aspects of a minor nature about resurrection(s) which I won't go into - but I think this answers your question.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

No, I don't think so. The trump of God doesn't mean the trumpet is blown by God, Maybe it is performed by angel. Read Revelation 11:15-18.

I don't think as you do.

Read 1Co 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,

Read 1Th 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Raising the Dead is a God-job for Jesus.
Announcing the Kingdom is another matter.

 

[keras]

People who believe in a rapture to heaven have been fooled by false teaching, just as Jesus said: Matthew 24:11, would happen and Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that people will listen to those bad teachers and be deceived by them.
Sadly, millions have been deluded into thinking that just belief in God is enough and they need do nothing else in order to be taken directly to heaven.
But when the fiery trial comes, as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us it will, those who expected to be gone, will be shocked and terrified as the worldwide disaster of that Day, Luke 21:35, 2 Peter 3:7, strikes down the ungodly, Hebrews 10:27, Romans 1:18, and all who fail to stand firm in their faith. Matthew 24:10
Many prophesies tell how the Lord will settle His people into all of the Holy Land, where they will at last be the people He always intended. These people will prepare the world for the Millennium Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31
Then, after all that is prophesied to happen in the last days has taken place, the Lord will Return and bring all His righteous people to Jerusalem, all those who refused the mark of the beast and those from their place of safety. Revelation 12:14 The martyred saints will be resurrected at this time, Revelation 20:4, but the rest of the dead await the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the Millennium.

 

[idono]

I don't think as you do.

Read 1Co 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,

Read 1Th 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Raising the Dead is a God-job for Jesus.
Announcing the Kingdom is another matter.

Read Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[rockytopva]

We are commanded in scripture to be ready,for in such an hour as we think not, the son of man commeth. So you have your opinion on who to listen to... Keras...or Christ. I will for my part opt for Christ and keep myself ready to go on a daily basis... And so live obedient to Christ... And not Keras.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Read Revelation 11:18

And that's at the end of the one 'seven'.

For the Bride, we have the "unveiling" where each of us gives an account.
For the captured anti-Christ and false prophet - they are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire in their flesh.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

People who believe in a rapture to heaven have been fooled by false teaching,

The Rapture is in the Bible and even you have conceded that Rev 7:9 is in Heaven.

Why do you persist in calling those who "comfort one another with these words" deceived?

 

[rockytopva]

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

 

[Heb 13:8]

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

We can actually know the day and the hour. The Lord comes as a thief to nonbelievers, not believers.

Day: Day of the Lord on Feast of Trumpets
Hour: Twinkling of an eye - http://www.torahcalendar.com/SUNSET.asp

Matt 24 & 1 Thess 5 Idiom

Matt 24:37-39 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

1 Thess 5:1-10 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Nonbelievers
1. As it was in the days of Noah
2. people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
3. and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away
4. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape
5. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

Believers
1. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you
2. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief
3. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
4. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
5. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
6. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
7. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Will Christ Return on The Feast of Trumpets?
By Daniel Valles, Updated 9/9/13, 09/09/2013

Throughout Scripture, we find many important prophecies fulfilled on Jewish Biblical feast days. Looking back we see God's fulfillments in Passover, First Fruits (Christ's Resurrection), Pentecost, etc. Those were referred to as the Spring Feasts. The Fall Feasts appear to also line up as further fulfillment, with the next Feast event being the Feast of Trumpets and the prophetic event of the Rapture.

We will learn shortly why and how Christ can fulfill this prophetic event on this day when we do not know the day nor the hour; but, first, we need some background. Biblically, the Feast of Trumpets (also known today as Rosh Hashanah or Yom Teruah) celebrates the Jewish New Year (although it was not originally for that purpose). The word means "Day of Blowing", referring to the shofar horn being blown one hundred times. There is a set pattern of different sounds that are repeated eleven times, with one single final blast referred to as the "Last Trump".

The Feast of Trumpets is a unique celebration in that it is actually two days referred to as one day, and called Yoma Arichtah in Aramaic: "one long day". This is because (unlike all the other feasts) it is marked not by a day, date, or time - it is traditionally marked as when two witnesses reported to the Sanhedrin that the new moon had been spotted. What makes it impossible to assign a day or hour to this event (which the Jewish people were commanded to observe) is that the timing would be relative and different depending on where in the world you were. Although it was officially done at Jerusalem.

Historically, this is why it is celebrated over two days as one - when the sighting was made official in Jerusalem, fires on mountains would be lit to spread the word to far off areas and nations that it had officially started. However, if you were Jewish and were part of those who still lived in Babylon and other nations after the dispersion, then you might not find out till a whole day later! This is why the holiday is spread over two days. It was a common idiom in Christ's day to refer to the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah) as not knowing what day it would be on, or what hour; but, you would still have a very close idea of the period of week by watching the signs in the moon phases.

Even in our modern times, we use common idioms to refer to time frames. For example, people generally refer to the time and events around December 25th - January 1st as "The Best Time of the Year." It is not a day-specific idiom, but everyone knows generally the season you are talking about. For some it's December 24th and 25th, others it the 25th only, and for others it might be 24th through 1st. Likewise, when Jesus referenced that no one would know the day or the hour, it would have rung some mental bells in His disciples' heads, since the Feast of Trumpets was commonly known as "the feast where no one knew the day nor the hour".

One reason to strongly think that Christ was 'speaking their language' by referencing a common idiom is that He repeats this phrase with the two points of day and hour; He does not simply state that we will not know the day - that should have been enough if it was just going to be only random day of the year. The fact that He makes extra emphasis on a particular saying seems to be a 'Hint, Hint' to the time frame (one of the Feast of Trumpets) yet at the same time without being able to give a specific chronological marker.

In the following verses, you will see several repeating idioms and illustrations overlapping. Let's examine the Scriptures and see if Christ was using what would be a common and familiar Jewish idiom when He spoke with His disciples:

 

[Heb 13:8]

There are five times the Bible mentions two Resurrections to Heaven.
The order is always the same:

1. The First Resurrection is only for the righteous.
2. The Second Resurrection includes both righteous and wicked.

That's the simplest answer.
After that it gets complicated.

The First Resurrection is not declared until all applicable types of souls are "made alive" in their new, imperishable and immortal bodies.
This happens only at the end of the one 'seven' - after the battle at Armageddon.

The First Resurrection includes:

1. The Firstfruits of the Harvest - which by definition would be of the same type as the wheat: Christians: the 144,000
2. The Dead in Christ who are summoned BY GOD with the Last Trumpet.
3. The Elect who remain and are left after the Great Tribulation are gathered while still alive: the Rapture.
   • All three are done on the Day of the Lord which is coincidental with the sixth Seal.
4. Finally, the Martyrs are "made alive" - when their number is complete - and it is not complete until the Two Witnesses rise up.

The Second Resurrection includes:

1. The righteous "sheep" who live during the Millennium.
2. The wicked dead from the time of Cain to the end of the Millennium.

These are separated at the Great White Throne Judgment (Mt 25 + Rev 20).
.
.
Now there are some other complicating factors and aspects of a minor nature about resurrection(s) which I won't go into - but I think this answers your question.

Thank you.