When in Revelation the Rapture will occur

[Marcus O'Reillius]

This is wrong, because it means a serious shuffling of the given sequence in Revelation.

No, actually it's not. And what's even funnier, is that you now pass yourself off as a sequence expert on Revelation only because I put forth the sequence-of-events.

What Heb 13:8 said is true based on Jesus' Words in the Olivet Discourse, and not only does it not violate any sequence in the various parallel accounts of Revelation - no less an authority on prophecy than an Elder confirms that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation - which Jesus said was shortened - and then God's Wrath comes.

 

[keras]

Same place He's been since He ascended: HEAVEN.

Acts 3:20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

So I was talking with my Pastor, and I was telling him about these guys who said there was no Heaven, and that when we are taken up, we are not taken to Heaven, and he just looked at me and said, "Are they serious?" And I said, "Yes." And he just shook his head and said, "It's amazing what some people come up with, because there is a Heaven where Jesus is now."

So how do you reconcile that with Matthew 28:20?
Christians are not taken to heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13, John 8:21, John 17:15 and we shall reign on earth. Revelation 5:10

Was Jesus in heaven when He spoke to Paul on the Damascus road? Is He in heaven when He appears to people like Muslims who cry out in agony to Him?
You and your pastor, plus millions of others are deceived and have been led to believe a lie, the rapture removal to heaven, that simply isn't scriptural.

 

[keras]

No, actually it's not. And what's even funnier, is that you now pass yourself off as a sequence expert on Revelation only because I put forth the sequence-of-events.

What Heb 13:8 said is true based on Jesus' Words in the Olivet Discourse, and not only does it not violate any sequence in the various parallel accounts of Revelation - no less an authority on prophecy than an Elder confirms that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation - which Jesus said was shortened - and then God's Wrath comes.

The usual Marcus scoffing and denigration of anyone who challenges his beliefs. I only reply in the hope others will see the truth I present.

The sequence of Revelation is; the 7 Seals, the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. THEN God's wrath is complete. Revelation 15:1
Shuffling them does violate many prophesies: Isaiah 61:2b for example, shows that the Day of the Lord's wrath is the next event we can expect
To place the Sixth Seal at the Return of Jesus, doesn't fit with what Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:3 describe.

 

[rockytopva]

Christ will come to get his church in what we call the rapture... In which scripture emphasizes this event in plain ordinary times, in times we think not.
Christ will return with his church to reign a 1,000 years in which we call the second coming of Christ

If there is not a rapture first then Christ has no saints to return with. If the rapture is post trib then that would be a rather quick trip wouldn't it?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Jesus is in the same place He's been since He ascended: HEAVEN.

Acts 3:20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

So how do you reconcile that with Matthew 28:20?

He sent us the Counselor. Is Jesus here now? No. So "with us" doesn't mean He's not in Heaven.

Christians are not taken to heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13, John 8:21, John 17:15

No - AGAIN.
This is the upteenth time I've corrected your mistake in trying to say we cannot ever be taken to Heaven.

1. John 3;13 and John 8:21 says any person cannot go to Heaven.
The Greek is very specific in that they are the actor doing the acting - the active voice.
The subject is the one who does the action.

In the Rapture - we are taken - we would "go" to Heaven in the passive voice as it is an action which is done on or to us.

SO - NO ONE has the power to take themselves to Heaven.
BUT! That does NOT mean we can't be TAKEN to Heaven by Jesus.

2. John 17:15 is specifically talking about the Apostles, who did not follow Jesus in His train as Psalms 68:18 foretells.
Those who did follow Jesus in His train are mentioned in Zechariah 3:8 as "men wondered at"
- And it is my hypothesis that they are the 24 Elders John meets when HE IS TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN.

He didn't go up by his own power...
But he did get taken up!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You and your pastor, plus millions of others are deceived and have been led to believe a lie, the rapture removal to heaven, that simply isn't scriptural.

The usual keras scoffing and denigration of anyone who challenges his beliefs. I only reply in the hope others will see the truth I present.

Right back atcha buddy...

 

[keras]

An important, actually vital premise of the rapture theory, is Jesus Returning with His saints.
The scriptures describing Jesus' Return;
Revelation 19:14 the armies of heaven followed Him....
Jude 1:14...I saw the Lord coming with His myriads of angels....
Matthew 24:31...He will send out His angels to gather His people.....
Zechariah 14:3-5... Jesus Returns, destroys the attacking armies....splits the Mt of Olives, those Christians still alive there escape....THEN He appears with His holy saints, gathered from the corners of the earth, as we know from Matthew 24:31.
Saying that it is Christians who Return with Jesus from heaven, is an outright violation of the truth.

[SIZE=medium]Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ephesians 1:10…[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]everything in heaven [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]and earth[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Revelation 21:3 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Zechariah 9:10 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the earth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on earth. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Isaiah 35:1-2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Will those who will live with Jesus during His Millennial reign, have spiritual bodies? No, because there will be many still alive at His Return, Matthew 24:31 and when He was resurrected, He still ate and drank in a body suited for earthly living. John 21:12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Revelation 20:4-6…[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the souls of those who were killed for their faith in God, were resurrected and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]… On earth! Rev 5:9-10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]People who think there is a rapture to heaven, where they believe they will have heavenly, spiritual bodies have failed to understand that God’s purpose from the beginning of humankind, was to establish a place and a people who would exemplify His glory and to share eternal life with Christ. Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 22:14[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]For now, we face daily challenges in our lives and on the world scene, but the knowledge that a regenerated earth is coming should reassure us and give us the right perspective. There is a purpose in all that happens, the injustices and suffering will not last, they are part of the testing process we all must go through.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]God will make everything right, rewarding those who stood firm and trusted Him in all the trials and temptations of this world. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]1 Cor. 16:13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The people who will live with Jesus in the Millennium period, are being prepared now. Remember, it may not be the proud and self-promoting people who will be chosen, it’s [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the meek who will inherit [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Matthew 5:5[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Those people will then be under the benevolent government of the resurrected saints, with Jesus as King.[/SIZE]

 

[n2thelight]

Saying that it is Christians who Return with Jesus from heaven, is an outright violation of the truth.

Christians will return with Christ,the ones who died throughout time

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord."

The subject is those who have died


I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

 

[keras]

Christians will return with Christ,the ones who died throughout time

The subject is those who have died


I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."uite

Not quite correct, Jesus will bring the souls of the martyred saints with Him, at present kept under the Altar in heaven. Rev 6:9-11

The rest of the dead, incl Christians, do not rise for judgement until the GWT . Rev 20:11-13

 

[n2thelight]

Not quite correct, Jesus will bring the souls of the martyred saints with Him, at present kept under the Altar in heaven. Rev 6:9-11

The rest of the dead, incl Christians, do not rise for judgement until the GWT . Rev 20:11-13

See that's the part many don't understand,we don't have a soul,we are a soul he gave us flesh for this age,at death it goes back to the dust,never to be needed again...

Will comment on "the rest of the dead" later

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ will come to get his church in what we call the rapture... In which scripture emphasizes this event in plain ordinary times, in times we think not.
Christ will return with his church to reign a 1,000 years in which we call the second coming of Christ

If there is not a rapture first then Christ has no saints to return with. If the rapture is post trib then that would be a rather quick trip wouldn't it?

You have the humility to say, "Therefore: it is my hypothesis..." I commend you for this! God bless!

"meeting Him in the Air" was a historical event for Paul; he was describing what for him was a past experience, i think.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

In the first letter to the Thessalonians, which is, chronologically, Paul's first letter he wrote to the Churches in Asia Minor; he is on fire for eschatology.
We can see that this didn't work out well for such new beginners in the faith. He had to correct them with his second-ever letter: 2nd Thessalonians, in what we call: 2Th 2:1-8.

In 1Th 4:16-17, Paul sets the order of the resurrection as: 1. The Dead in Christ, and then, 2. Those who are alive and remain.
​Now that's a pretty cryptic way to put it: Why would they be thought of as "remaining"?
​But when you put it together with what Jesus said decades before on the eve of His Crucifixion, we can understand the ones remaining to be the rapidly dwindling Elect who suffer in the Great Tribulation.

Then, Paul's words make good sense.

Before this critical order, Paul introduces what he wants to talk about in what I call: an observer-true statement.
​1Th 3:13 So that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Taking his explanation a paragraph later, we can look at 3:13 as being in the place of one of those who is (still) alive and remains.
​To them, they see Jesus coming on the clouds with those souls He has resurrected from Paradise.

keras' dictation that Jesus comes with the martyred saints is in error, as he often is.
​The Martyred Saints are not made alive until their number is complete.
​At the sixth Seal Day of the Lord, God's Wrath, although foretold by Angels to men, has not yet come.
​Jesus' Day of the Lord Wrath will very soon come on the heels of the Rapture, but at that point: it has not yet come.

The last two Martyrs for God are the Two Witnesses.
​We know that they testify and prophesize for a half of the one 'seven'.
That half can be concluded to be the second half based on the Olivet Discourse, which puts the Day of the Lord happening in sequence of events - after the midpoint abomination.
So at the time of the Day of the Lord, after the shortened Great Tribulation (caused by two laws: Rev 13-15-17) the number of martyrs are not yet complete.
And keras is wrong, again.

 

[bbyrd009]

In the first letter to the Thessalonians, which is, chronologically, Paul's first letter he wrote to the Churches in Asia Minor; he is on fire for eschatology.

i suggest that Paul had discovered the kingdom, and was leaving us directions so that we could also discover It

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus is in the same place He's been since He ascended: HEAVEN.

Acts 3:20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.



He sent us the Counselor. Is Jesus here now? No.

um, what? yikes...

aren't YOU the "Body of Christ?"

 

[keras]

As usual Marcus has some right and all the rest wrong.
1 Thess 4:5-17 is a prophecy about the physical Return of Jesus to earth for His Millennium reign. He is accompanied by the angelic armies of heaven and brings the souls of all the martyrs since Stephen, including the 2 Witnesses, with Him. They are all given resurrected bodies and get to reign with Jesus for the next 1000 years. The rest of the dead, including Christians, await the GWT judgement after the Millennium. Those who remain alive will be gathered by the angels, Matthew 24:31, transported like Philip was, to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem.

Marcus makes two critical errors:
1/ A rapture to heaven for all true believing Christians before anything bad happens. Such a thing is never prophesied and living humans cannot go to heaven.
2/ Shifting the Sixth Seal to happen at the Return. This is impossible, as the wrath of God is completed after the 7 Bowls. Rev 15:1

 

[bbyrd009]

"the physical Return of Jesus to earth?"

but aren't you the "Body of Christ?"

we can read that even...Cornelius, was it? Collected Jesus' carcass, a different word than body
(in the Lexicon)

 

[dadman]

ARE WE THERE YET ????

trending toward One World Religion ........ End of the Age audio/video input
trending toward One World Governance
trending toward The Mark of the Beast
event The Confirmation of the Covenant
trending toward Apostate/false Christianity
trending toward Persecution of Christians and Jews
trending toward Earthquakes / diseases and natural disasters
trending toward Rampant cultural / sexual perversion
event The building and commencement of a new Jewish Temple
trending toward Wars and Rumors of Wars / violence will fill the Earth
trending toward The Euphrates River War .... Revelation 9
trending toward All Nations gathering against Israel

























...

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

aren't YOU the "Body of Christ?"

When Paul speaks of "building up the body of Christ" in Eph 4:12 does NOT mean we are Jesus.

Jesus is in Heaven right now.

 

[bbyrd009]

When Paul speaks of "building up the body of Christ" in Eph 4:12 does NOT mean we are Jesus.

Jesus is in Heaven right now.

well then, imo you have to rectify how you can both be "the Body of Christ," and also be looking for a Bodily return. Which, not saying you cannot, but that both cannot be true.
Also, "in heaven" seems to be coming suspiciously close, to me, to pointing to some place where "Jesus" is, when we know that there is no place called heaven, and the kingdom is HereNow, does not come with observation, if someone says "here it is!" or "it is over there!" ignore them, etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Thess 4:5-17 is a prophecy about the physical Return of Jesus to earth for His Millennium reign.

i don't know, but i don't think so, not any more. I'd say at least be open to what the Spirit might want you to know there. Christ's first coming caught everyone out, and i doubt His second one will be any different wadr.

We are the Body of Christ, and this can be verified, in many Places, it has many Witnesses. We are the physical part.

Christ's "return" can also be perceived in the life of each seeker, in a spiritual sense, and really regardless of what may happen tomorrow, i think this approach yields the most fruit, today.