When Is the Holy Spirit Received?

[Harvest 1874]

For he (John) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)

1 Peter 1:10-11
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I agree that Pentecost brought about a new anointing...a power and manifestation of the Spirit not seen or experienced before. But I disagree that the Spirit was not in the prophets and patriarchs. Are we to assume that Satan could possess men throughout all the ages but God couldn't?
As for the unsaved, we agree; I think if you read my post a little more carefully you will see that I said the Spirit convicted us, convinced us. This was externally influencing our decisions and awakening our spiritual senses.

OK my friend so as to avoid in further confusion I will break down your first post and distinguish between what we agree with and what we don’t, understand this in no way implies any ill will toward you personally, so please don’t take it that way, I am simply attempting to present our position as best we may. I’m sure you know how difficult it is to converse with someone through the written word, one wrong word or phrase and what your attempting to say gets misconstrued or misinterpreted. I will address your second post here likewise.

In regards to your first post you stated:

“It is impossible to have faith for salvation without the Holy Spirit.”

This was the jest of your statement which we disagreed with and which led to our first response. Now it is possible as I said that we misinterpreted what you were trying to say, but as faithful stewards of the Lord’s word it is our duty when we see an error to attempt to correct it so that none of the Lord’s “little ones”, those weak in faith (i.e. those not “established in the truth”) are caused to stumble. I will not here go over what we had said in regards to this as anyone can read it for themselves, so let us move on to your next statement:

“It is the Spirit that convicts of sin.”

This is true, but even in the unregenerate (the nonbeliever) his own conscious convicts him of sin, for even though the fall occurred over 6000 years ago man still retains a spark of the original image of his creator which was instilled in him, this alone is enough to convince him of right and wrong, not that all heed their conscious mind you.

“It is the Spirit that convinces the sinner of his need of a Savior.”

This is true, once the individual becomes aware, that is conscious of his true fallen condition, and realizes that there is nothing he or any other man can do to save him, if he be repentant he naturally looks to a higher power for salvation, but to whom, who can save him from this condition in which he finds himself?

“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” Rom 10:14

Note here the apostle is not here referring to a “preacher” in the typical sense in which most imagine, he’s not referring to anyone of the various ministers ordained by men, but of those “able ministers” ordained by God, those with whom he has given “the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor 5:18),

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because he hath anointed (ordained) me to preach good tidings (gospel) unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year (time) of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God." Isa. 61:1.

This scripture applies chiefly to the Lord and to all those who have come in under the same anointing, thus the spirit begotten, the fully consecrated.

“It is the Spirit that reveals truth.”

Most certainly

“The carnal man is at enmity with God...only by the Spirit can anyone understand or comprehend any spiritual matter.”

This is likewise true, as the Apostle Paul so states in 1 Cor 2:14 “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

“So the moment of conversion is the moment one permits Jesus into the life. Then the Spirit of Christ enters.”

Here is where we have a problem, first let us distinguish between repentance and conversion, viz.

"Repent and be converted (turned around) that your sins may be blotted out." (Acts 3:19)

Repentance is sorrow for ones actions and/or conduct, conversion however involves a little more it requires a change in ones thinking and behavior, both are necessary steps which each sinner and unbeliever must take before he can begin his journey back to God, however the only way in which an individual’s sins can be blotted out (forgiven) is by a heartfelt confession of ones guilt and an acceptance of Christ as one’s personal savior as the propitiation or atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2).

“…You who were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience”. Eph 2:1-2

We see here that one of the first things required of us to walk with God is to change our direction, that is, we are not to walk "according to" or "under the direction of” the prince of the power of the air, Satan, but rather “to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Rom 12:2)

Nothing in this implies spirit begettal, or the receiving the Holy Spirit at this juncture.

“The more one surrenders self, the more room for the Spirit to make the entrance. As self-dies and is buried, so the Spirit increases more and more.”

This statement is true; however at this stage the repentant and converted sinner has not yet reached spirit begettal.

“The disciples received the Spirit while Jesus was still with them, on one occasion He breathed upon them His Spirit.”

This likewise is true, (See John 20:21, 22)

“Here our Lord took occasion to give his commission to the apostles, saying, "As the Father sent me, even so send I you." I have done the work the Father gave me to do; I now appoint to you a great work, which you are to do in my name, even as I worked in my Father's name. Symbolically then, as conveying to them a lesson, Jesus breathed upon them and said, "Receive ye the holy Spirit." He thus represented that he would put his Spirit, his disposition upon them which would enable them to carry out their commission, even as his own reception of the Holy Spirit at the time of his baptism enabled him to carry out his consecration.”

Here they were partaking of a share of Christ’ spirit, his holy disposition and power.

“The Holy Spirit as it came to the Church at Pentecost was the heavenly Father's manifestation of His acceptance of the Church, and that was deferred until after Jesus had made His sacrifice at Calvary--until after He had ascended up on high and appeared in the presence of God for us; and it was an evidence to these disciples that God had accepted them, and that they might count themselves in as members of the Body of Christ, His spirit-begotten sons. The spirit that Christ put upon them was His Spirit, His power, before that. He had received the Spirit without measure; He used that Spirit Himself in the healing of diseases, because the power was thus put upon Him; so He gave the disciples of this power and sent them forth as His representatives in His name.”

With the rest of your post we are in agreement.

Once again due to the 10000 limit on the amount of characters you can use I will address your second post after this.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Now as to your second post:

You quote, Luke 1:15, “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.”

Note likewise that both Elizabeth John’s mother and Zacharias his father were likewise filled with the Holy Spirit, (Luke 1:41, 67) “The prenatal influence upon John the Baptist were such that, from his birth, his heart was inclined toward God and holiness.”

You also quote 1 Pet 1:10, 11, “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.”

You state: “I agree that Pentecost brought about a new anointing...a power and manifestation of the Spirit not seen or experienced before. But I disagree that the Spirit was not in the prophets and patriarchs.”

With this we too are in agreement, it was not our intention to suggest by stating that the prophets of old were simply moved by the spirit, like some outside force directing their actions, they had free will they could have resisted, but like John the Baptist they were compelled by their love for God to do his will, yes of course the spirit was in them, how else could it have influenced them? The point we were attempting to empathize was that they were not filled with the Holy Spirit as it is presently given to the fully consecrated now during the Gospel age.

“Remember, that up to the time of Jesus' baptism by John… the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to anyone in the way in which it was imparted to the church, viz.: as a comforter, guide and leader into the understanding of truth, etc.

True, the Spirit had been in the world, and was exercised upon and in certain prophets, but it was given for special occasions, and was not an abiding presence. It gave them miraculous utterance, but did not guide into the understanding of God's word; for, "not to themselves, but to us (the church) they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.” 1 Pet. 1:12.

In conclusion I would say for the most part we are on the same page, just some minor differences which needed to be cleared up, blessings to you my friend.

 

[mjrhealth]

I can only put it this way

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

for Mary it was when she believed,
and

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

they did too, when they believed,

and it can be so with christians when they believe.

 

[charity]

charity: 'In Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe, we are His workmanship'.

mmmkay, but you gotta believe the Nehushtan worshippers felt the same way, right?

Wrong! @bbyrd009,

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by this. What has the account in Numbers 21:4-10 got to do with receiving the Holy Spirit?

‘And Jehovah said to Moses,
Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole.
And it shall be when everyone that is bitten,
when he looks upon it, he shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of bronze,
and put it upon a pole.
And it happened that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he looked upon the serpent of brass, he lived.’
(Num 21:8-9)

‘And no one has ascended up to Heaven
except He Who came down from Heaven,
the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
so that whosoever believes in Him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.’
(John 3:13-15)

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you means by this. What has the account in Numbers 21:4-10 got to do with receiving the Holy Spirit?

well, the bronze serpent is not Nehushtan, i guess, until it is worshipped anyway, in Kings?
2 Kings 18:4 Lexicon: He removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.

and i would say that you have to have a personal understanding of why Christ associated Himself with the Snake on a Pole, and then why Nehushtan was "broken up," to associate these with receiving the Spirit, if you like, but my point was simply that the Israelites worshipped Nehushtan, believing that they were following the Spirit, right.

so, you being a mother i guess, right, have already learned the diff in service and worship the hard way anyway, and "churches" do not give sermons on Nehushtan for a very good reason, that you should contemplate for yourself. I don't feel right saying any more to someone who has made up their mind about their future state, whose heart is likely better than mine nonetheless; but it should become apparent that you are effectively on your own in putting yourself in the place of a Nehushtan worshipper, if you will.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did Christ associate Himself with Asherah? apparently so, right

Two Greeks came to worship Christ, and He hid from them, for the same reason;
their def of "worship" was not correct, is the msg i'm getting anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
so that whosoever believes in Him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.’
(John 3:13-15)

this will come to have a very different meaning for you than the one provided by churches, fwiw

especially if your church burns incense, etc

 

[skypair]

Not to complicate the question but hopefully to clarify it, when is a person born again or born from above? All of us were dead [or still are?] in the eyes of God until we were born again receiving the new Life which Jesus came to provide. When were we first "quickened"? What did the quickening? Was it not the Holy Spirit within us that brought us to Life [if we have been brought]?

We new covenant saints were born again when we repented to God turning from our sinful ways and thoughts (Acts 2:38, Isa 55:7) and turning to God through the name of Jesus Christ. That is when Titus 3:5 happens -- the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Quickening," as I understand it, is the same as born again per 1Cor 15:36 -- "That which you sow [your soul] is not quickened except it die first." When we repent, we are really dying to our flesh and to our own thoughts and ways. We quit being our own person and stat being God's Person, the Holy Ghost living in us.

skypair

 

[DAH]

The baptism "with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 1:4-5) is NOT the same thing as baptism "by the Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13). There are many different baptisms in the Bible. There are two different baptisms that involve the Holy Spirit.

With the Holy Ghost (Kingdom Gospel saints / Israel)
1) Outward manifestations (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6)
2) For power (Lk. 24:49; Jn. 14:12)
3) According to prophecy (Isa. 32:1, 15-18; 44:3; Ezek. 39:29; Joel 2:28; Zech. 12:10)
4) Christ baptizes with Holy Ghost (Matt. 3:11)

By the Spirit (Church / Body of Christ / Gospel of Grace Believers)
1) No outward manifestations (Rom. 6:3, only know it by doctrine)
2) For salvation (Gal. 3:26-28)
3) A mystery (the body a mystery, so the baptism into the body a mystery)
4) The Spirit baptizes into Christ (1 Cor. 12:13)

We are sealed by the Spirit as soon as we believe and accept salvation:

Ephesians 1:13
(KJV Strong's)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[DAH]

We new covenant saints were born again when we repented to God turning from our sinful ways and thoughts (Acts 2:38, Isa 55:7) and turning to God through the name of Jesus Christ. That is when Titus 3:5 happens -- the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Quickening," as I understand it, is the same as born again per 1Cor 15:36 -- "That which you sow [your soul] is not quickened except it die first." When we repent, we are really dying to our flesh and to our own thoughts and ways. We quit being our own person and stat being God's Person, the Holy Ghost living in us.

skypair

Food for Thought - 2-cents for study on "Born Again"

Ever since Chuck Colson’s popular biography being “born again” has been a mainstream euphemism for a salvation experience. The same Colson who did prison time in Nixon's Watergate

Some have used “born again” as a way to separate the devout from the nominal Christian. Unfortunately, many believe they are saved because they have a “born again” feeling, changed life, or emotional experience and have no testimony of trusting Christ’s finished work on the cross.

When studied from the Bible rightly divided 2 TIm 2:15), “born again” is something that only Israel could do. No Gentile could be born again.

Israel’s First Birth
To understand why only Israel could be born again, we must know how they were born the first time.

In Exodus the nation of Israel was born the first time when God delivered them out of Egypt. The LORD calls the nation his firstborn son.

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And
I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me…” – Exodus 4:22-23

Having been delivered and redeemed from Egypt, Israel was given the law, the Mosaic
covenant, that sanctified them as a people.

Israel’s Need for a Second Birth
Over time Israel became disobedient and where the law was sin abounded. They were no longer bound by Egypt, but they were bound by the covenant to their sins with no way out. As Israel’s sins grew it was clear that merely being born a Jew into the promises and covenants of God was not able to cause them to serve the Lord.

The prophets spoke of a better covenant that would replace the old for the house of Israel (Jer 31:31). This new covenant would include the impartation of God’s Spirit to cause them to walk in his statutes (Eze 36:27). It was this new covenant that was necessary for God to fulfill his kingdom promises to Israel.

Nicodemus and Born Again
That the prophets already spoke about Israel’s new covenant is why when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again he said:

“ Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” – John 3:10

Nicodemus should have known that Israel had a great need, and that the need was for their nation to be redeemed from their old covenant bondage to enter the kingdom God had promised them.

“ Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
– John 3:3

Jesus made it clear to Nicodemus that the nation had to be born again when he said “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7 -We know that “ye” is the plural pronoun; and “thee” the singular.) Jesus came to Israel ministering their need for being born again through a better covenant. No longer would Israel be identified by the old covenant but by the new. People who think they are born again must also think they are in some way Israel.

A New Creature
Only Israel could be born again, because only Israel was born unto God a first time (Exo 4:22). You can’t be born again, because you are not saved by being Israel, or by Israel’s covenants. Gentiles were strangers of the covenants and without God (Eph 2:12). Gentiles were not born into God’s covenants. Our salvation would not be a second time opportunity for us. It would be the first time salvation was offered directly to us without Israel.

Our salvation by grace is not consequent to a changed life, a Spirit unction, or a better way to obey God’s statutes. Our salvation is not described as being born again into a second covenant, but being made alive into a new creature (Eph 2:15). This new creature, called the Body of Christ, is neither Jewish nor Gentile, and operates not under the law (Rom 6:14; Gal 3:28). The new creature is the subject of the mystery of Christ and could not have been known by Nicodemus, the prophets, nor any of the apostles in John 3.

Herein is the Problem…
When people use “born again” language to describe their salvation today it hides the preaching of the cross unique to the formation of the new creature by God’s grace. “Born again” language takes us back to before the cross in John 3 and replaces the gospel of
Christ with Israel’s new covenant. Born again language is a denial of the mystery of Christ revealed to the apostle Paul. People who think they are born again must also think they are in some way Israel.

Conclusion
Being born again is something for Israel to partake. Since Israel is fallen, you couldn’t be born again if you wanted to. What you can be is saved by God’s grace through faith in his finished work on the cross. At the moment you believe the Holy Spirit seals you in Christ making you part of a new creature. Trusting the cross of Christ is what will save you today. Trusting your experience, devotion, or changed life will not.

Being saved is far better than being born again.

 

[DAH]

Not to complicate the question but hopefully to clarify it, when is a person born again or born from above? All of us were dead [or still are?] in the eyes of God until we were born again receiving the new Life which Jesus came to provide. When were we first "quickened"? What did the quickening? Was it not the Holy Spirit within us that brought us to Life [if we have been brought]?

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Life is Jesus and is inside of the gate/door that was closed and put under guard [Gen 3:24] when Adam and Eve were placed outside of it.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

So then an overcomer may eat of the Tree of Life, which Tree was inside the gate. The gate is also the Door, which again I believe is Jesus [John 10:9]:

What does a person have to overcome in order to enter the gate/Door? Jesus paid the price for sin, but we must overcome the ways which would lead us back to sin again if we were to follow them. I find them described in this verse:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

In addition to paying the price for our sins, Jesus also promised us the Holy Spirit, the means or power to overcome those ways of man which when followed lead us back to sin.

So then all cleaned out by the sacrifice of Jesus, we are ready to become overcomers. We are ready to remove the ways to sin. We are ready to have something new built within us, God's Way. Is this not the rebirth of that which was dead?

So then when is the Holy Spirit received? When are ready to start overcoming the ways of man in us at the time we are born again. Pick your time if you want to call it more closely than that.

BORN AGAIN is not a term Paul ever uses - the Paul that delivered us the Gospel of the Grace of God. Born Again was Israel language - describing something completely different than Gentile salvation.

Food for Thought - 2-cents for study on "Born Again"

Ever since Chuck Colson’s popular biography being “born again” has been a mainstream euphemism for a salvation experience. The same Colson who did prison time in Nixon's Watergate

Some have used “born again” as a way to separate the devout from the nominal Christian. Unfortunately, many believe they are saved because they have a “born again” feeling, changed life, or emotional experience and have no testimony of trusting Christ’s finished work on the cross.

When studied from the Bible rightly divided 2 TIm 2:15), “born again” is something that only Israel could do. No Gentile could be born again.

Israel’s First Birth
To understand why only Israel could be born again, we must know how they were born the first time.

In Exodus the nation of Israel was born the first time when God delivered them out of Egypt. The LORD calls the nation his firstborn son.

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And
I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me…” – Exodus 4:22-23

Having been delivered and redeemed from Egypt, Israel was given the law, the Mosaic
covenant, that sanctified them as a people.

Israel’s Need for a Second Birth
Over time Israel became disobedient and where the law was sin abounded. They were no longer bound by Egypt, but they were bound by the covenant to their sins with no way out. As Israel’s sins grew it was clear that merely being born a Jew into the promises and covenants of God was not able to cause them to serve the Lord.

The prophets spoke of a better covenant that would replace the old for the house of Israel (Jer 31:31). This new covenant would include the impartation of God’s Spirit to cause them to walk in his statutes (Eze 36:27). It was this new covenant that was necessary for God to fulfill his kingdom promises to Israel.

Nicodemus and Born Again
That the prophets already spoke about Israel’s new covenant is why when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again he said:

“ Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” – John 3:10

Nicodemus should have known that Israel had a great need, and that the need was for their nation to be redeemed from their old covenant bondage to enter the kingdom God had promised them.

“ Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
– John 3:3

Jesus made it clear to Nicodemus that the nation had to be born again when he said “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7 -We know that “ye” is the plural pronoun; and “thee” the singular.) Jesus came to Israel ministering their need for being born again through a better covenant. No longer would Israel be identified by the old covenant but by the new. People who think they are born again must also think they are in some way Israel.

A New Creature
Only Israel could be born again, because only Israel was born unto God a first time (Exo 4:22). You can’t be born again, because you are not saved by being Israel, or by Israel’s covenants. Gentiles were strangers of the covenants and without God (Eph 2:12). Gentiles were not born into God’s covenants. Our salvation would not be a second time opportunity for us. It would be the first time salvation was offered directly to us without Israel.

Our salvation by grace is not consequent to a changed life, a Spirit unction, or a better way to obey God’s statutes. Our salvation is not described as being born again into a second covenant, but being made alive into a new creature (Eph 2:15). This new creature, called the Body of Christ, is neither Jewish nor Gentile, and operates not under the law (Rom 6:14; Gal 3:28). The new creature is the subject of the mystery of Christ and could not have been known by Nicodemus, the prophets, nor any of the apostles in John 3.

Herein is the Problem…
When people use “born again” language to describe their salvation today it hides the preaching of the cross unique to the formation of the new creature by God’s grace. “Born again” language takes us back to before the cross in John 3 and replaces the gospel of
Christ with Israel’s new covenant. Born again language is a denial of the mystery of Christ revealed to the apostle Paul. People who think they are born again must also think they are in some way Israel.

Conclusion
Being born again is something for Israel to partake. Since Israel is fallen, you couldn’t be born again if you wanted to. What you can be is saved by God’s grace through faith in his finished work on the cross. At the moment you believe the Holy Spirit seals you in Christ making you part of a new creature. Trusting the cross of Christ is what will save you today. Trusting your experience, devotion, or changed life will not.

Being saved is far better than being born again.

 

[DAH]

Hello @GodsGrace,

'In Whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:13-14)

In Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe, we are His workmanship.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Best - simple and true answer!

 

[amadeus]

“ Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
– John 3:3

Jesus made it clear to Nicodemus that the nation had to be born again when he said “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7 -We know that “ye” is the plural pronoun; and “thee” the singular.) Jesus came to Israel ministering their need for being born again through a better covenant. No longer would Israel be identified by the old covenant but by the new. People who think they are born again must also think they are in some way Israel.

A New Creature
Only Israel could be born again, because only Israel was born unto God a first time (Exo 4:22). You can’t be born again, because you are not saved by being Israel, or by Israel’s covenants. Gentiles were strangers of the covenants and without God (Eph 2:12). Gentiles were not born into God’s covenants. Our salvation would not be a second time opportunity for us. It would be the first time salvation was offered directly to us without Israel.

Our salvation by grace is not consequent to a changed life, a Spirit unction, or a better way to obey God’s statutes. Our salvation is not described as being born again into a second covenant, but being made alive into a new creature (Eph 2:15). This new creature, called the Body of Christ, is neither Jewish nor Gentile, and operates not under the law (Rom 6:14; Gal 3:28). The new creature is the subject of the mystery of Christ and could not have been known by Nicodemus, the prophets, nor any of the apostles in John 3.

Herein is the Problem…
When people use “born again” language to describe their salvation today it hides the preaching of the cross unique to the formation of the new creature by God’s grace. “Born again” language takes us back to before the cross in John 3 and replaces the gospel of
Christ with Israel’s new covenant. Born again language is a denial of the mystery of Christ revealed to the apostle Paul. People who think they are born again must also think they are in some way Israel.

Conclusion
Being born again is something for Israel to partake. Since Israel is fallen, you couldn’t be born again if you wanted to. What you can be is saved by God’s grace through faith in his finished work on the cross. At the moment you believe the Holy Spirit seals you in Christ making you part of a new creature. Trusting the cross of Christ is what will save you today. Trusting your experience, devotion, or changed life will not.

Being saved is far better than being born again.

Everyone is effectively "born dead" to their natural mother. Adam and Eve died when they ate fruit of the wrong tree and were in that day then dead:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

They did eat and they did die and they along with all of their offspring remained dead until Jesus brought Life and it became available to "whosoever will". Jesus confirms who was dead here:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22

Here he declares his purpose for coming:

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:9-10

In John 3:3 it says, "a man", not a Hebrew man or an man of the blood of natural Jacob or Israel. Also in the above verse [John 10:10] it says, "any man" not any Hebrew or any man of the blood of natural Jacob or Israel. Natural Israel being his son called out of Egypt is a special thing for that people but for us it is only a type or shadow of the real thing. It was a prophecy of the real event:

"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn." Ex 4:22-23

The real thing occurs here:

"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matt 2:15

For natural Israel the people were called out of Egypt to obtain natural life. They did. They were brought out of natural bondage, but they were still dead as per Gen 2:17. Jesus was still ahead to bring to them and "whosoever will" out of spiritual bondage [death] into the real Life lost to man in the Garden of Eden. Jesus brought Life to everyone who would receive it: Jew or Gentile.

Jesus came first to the Jews, but then also to the Gentiles. What He brought was for everyone. Anyone could acknowledge and receive what he brought: Life.

You say that "being saved" is better than "being born" again and in a sense you may be correct, but it likely depends upon exactly what you mean by each phrase. Your explanation shows me only a semantic tangle of words. A man is born again in order to have an opportunity to do what Adam and Eve did not do in the Garden: eat of the Tree of Life. Someone who is not "born again" cannot overcome as Jesus overcame because dead men cannot be overcomers. Only overcomers can eat of the Tree of Life and never die. Some one who never is able to eat of that Tree of Life as I understand is dead and salvation is found in the eating of the fruit of that Tree:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12


Without the sacrifice of Jesus everyone is dead, Jew or Gentile. Without the gift of the Holy Spirit working in him a person cannot overcome his own little world of sinful ways and eat of the Tree of Life.

What are our sinful ways? They are the things which when followed will lead us into sin:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." I John 2:16-17

He abides forever by first overcoming the "lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" and then he is able to eat of the Tree of Life and live forever:

Give God the glory!

 

[101G]

@amadeus,

I tell you a truth. more and more we discuss the Bible, more and more it becomes clearer.

thanks for the post.

PCY

 

[skypair]

Some have used “born again” as a way to separate the devout from the nominal Christian.

Well, Peter sure used the phrase: "Born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, by the Word of God that abides forever." (1Pet 1:23) So apparently you and amadeus don't realize that we were the offspring of God spiritually from birth (Acts 17:28-29) and only lost that relationship when we knowingly and willingly sinned against Him (Ezek 18:20). That is when we had to be "born again" of incorruptible seed.

So I take it neither of you has had this "experience," eh?

skypair

 

[Ac28]

Lot of verses on this. This one is probably the most definitive. The Holy Spirit is received the instant you believe Christ died for your sins, was buried, and was raised up 3 days later. The gospel Paul mentioned is what he called "my gospel" in 1Cor 15:1-4.
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

These verses tell me that it is impossible for a non-believing person to have ANY knowledge of the Bible, the most Spiritual thing on the planet.
1Cor 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Enoch111]

Many verses say we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation.
When do we receive the Holy Spirit?

You said it already -- "at salvation".

 

[Helen]

I believe that there is 1) the 'leading of the Holy Spirit', 2) the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and the 3) infilling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Triumph1300]

At salvation we are born of the Spirit.
Not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Helen]

At salvation we are born of the Spirit.
Not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, Amen, that is what I was trying to say too.