When Jesus "took away" your sin, did He leave behind the source, the sin nature?

[Lambano]

Question I have is how can we be in the spirit at all times in order to have that old man under our feet consistently at all times? I believe scripture shows we can get to that place....nothing is impossible with God.

That is a darn good question, Lizbeth.

I agree that with God, all things are possible. The founder of my denomination, John Wesley, also taught that it was possible and something to be sought after, though he never claimed to have achieved it himself. But my empirical observation is, I don't see it in myself, and I don't see it in others. And some who do claim it for themselves (not necessarily speaking of anyone on this thread) are so obviously eaten up by pride that I've become cynical about the whole operation.

 

[marks]

Not buying it.

John says, "If WE say WE have no sin,,,". John includes himself and his followers. If "we" means "unbelievers", John himself is an unbeliever, and all three of his letters should be ripped out of the Bible. And the Gospel of John too. And if Revelation was also authored by John (as is traditionally believed, though the writing style is completely different), then rip that one out too.

John also included himself in "we lie, and do not the truth". John wrote in "inclusive" language. It doesn't mean he is an unbeliever, rather, he wrote saying "we" including anyone who might read his letter.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And please don't try to say that they must not have ever been saved to begin with..........because could not have fallen away if they had nothing to fall away from to begin with. Come on now.

Yet you KNOW this is what the Scripture says.

They went out because they were not of us, if they were of us, they would have remained. This is a "rule of thumb", as they say. Plainly stated Scripture. Does that mean anything anymore?

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

John also included himself in "we lie, and do not the truth". John wrote in "inclusive" language. It doesn't mean he is an unbeliever, rather, he wrote saying "we" including anyone who might read his letter.

Okay; point taken. I should point out that this sentence is an IF => THEN construction, so "we lie" applies to anyone who meets the hypothetical condition of the predicate, " IF 'we' say 'we' have no sin...". By the same reasoning, one cannot conclude that the predicate only includes non-believers. Now, if the text read, "If YOU say YOU have no sin, then YOU lie and the truth is not in YOU"... but it doesn't.

 

[marks]

Okay; point taken. I should point out that this sentence is an IF => THEN construction, so "we lie" applies to anyone who meets the hypothetical condition of the predicate, " IF 'we' say 'we' have no sin...". By the same reasoning, one cannot conclude that the predicate only includes non-believers. Now, if the text read, "If YOU say YOU have no sin, then YOU lie and the truth is not in YOU"... but it doesn't.

It applies to whom it applies. We who say we have no sin and lie. We who walk in the truth. We who confess our sins.

I've gone through the chapter mapping out everything he wrote, to me it seems clear, and that vs. 9 is speaking of repentance unto salvation, confessing our sins to be forgiven and cleansed.

I do not believe the Christian who is justified in Christ needs additional forgiveness than what they received in salvation.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So sorry your mother was being so callous with you, that is sad. Sounds like you might have been trying to escape from things at home and maybe even trying to find what was lacking at home among your friends.

Is it possible your friend is just under the weather, or not feeling up to socializing? I assume she isn't young either. I know I don't always have the energy/drive for socializing and chatting any more. I need to keep visits and chats shorter than in the past.

Thank you for your kind words. The only thing I found out from a friend of a friend of her husband, was that "everything's fine, just busy." Well, that woman is always busy at 86, and her husband is 16 years younger than her. (I've always called him her "boy toy.") In reality, he married the golden goose.

 

[Behold]

We've tussled over this many times before, but there is no point in arguing with someone ad nauseum. We are warned and admonished throughout the entire bible.

Yes, we are admonished by the NT to never try to perform for God to try to stay saved.
Paul devoted entire chapters in Romans and Ephesians to keep us from that critical ERROR that proves broken faith has happened to you.
We are directed to only Give Christ full credit for saving us and keeping us saved.
We are told that if we try to teach, "yes, Christ saved me, but now i have to do all these things to try to finish His work.....so, that is why i say that if i dont, then i wont go to heaven".
-
-
Let us remember that what im teaching is "Grace through Faith"....or "Justification by faith, without works or deeds of the Law".
This is known as Paul's Doctrine, or Pauline Theology.
Ive taught it for a long time, as its the greatest truth and the most wonderful gift that is freely given to us by Holy God who loves each of us exactly as much as He loves His own Son, Jesus.
Reader, most of you belong to God, and God wants you to know that He loves you no less then He loves His "only Begotten Son, Jesus".

Paul is showing us what he teaches as "the simplicity that is IN CHRIST">.... and that is explaining that : God became one of us and died on The Cross for all of us = to offer FREE eternal forgiveness and FREE eternal righteousness to "all who will believe".

"eternal forgiveness and eternal righteousness" are "Gifts" that God the Father gives to everyone who will place their faith in The Lord Jesus The Christ.

Paul teaches (Romans 5:1)... this as "being JUSTIFED by FAITH (before God).. we have peace with God.. through our Lord Jesus Christ'".
Notice that Paul is teaching that the only way to have peace with God, is "through Christ"... and that means, that Its The Cross of Christ that is where our eternal "Peace with God" is offered as "The Gift of Salvation".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen,

From The Lips of Jesus The Lord, He said from The Cross......"IT is Finished".

So, this is The Lord teaching that He has completed our Salvation on The Cross, = 2000 yrs ago.
Christ "finished it", He told us from THe Cross, and then He died and rose again to prove it.

So, if you are born again, you are one of these 3.

1.) I understand Salvation is Jesus on the Cross and i can't do that or keep that, i have only received it from God as His "Gift of Salvation".
And Paul says you are one of the """as many as be perfect""", which means "you've worked out your Eternal Salvation that Holy Eternal God has given you for FREE, perfeclty understanding that He only gave you this because you gave God your Faith in Christ, that He required.
You understand that The Cross is The "Divine Exchange" whereby Christ becomes our sin and we become "Christ's righteousness", as our born again "new Creation in Christ".. Heavenly identity.
So, you understand that you exist eternally within : God's "Grace through faith" and you understand this perfectly.
And that knowledge is....>"all who believe in Jesus shall be saved". and : Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved the same way He saved me.


Or, 2.) you are someone who is "coming to the knowledge of the Truth" that : Jesus is Salvation, and this does not include any Moses Law or Commandment keeping or any type of "works" you can produce, such as water baptism, or trying to be like Christ.
You are beginning to believe that Jesus is not just the "door" and the "way", He is Eternal Life and the Blood Atonment and God's "imputed righteosness: given to you forever, solely based on : Our "faith is counted by God as (Christ's) righteousness" (imputed to us).
You understand that this verse is describing you as a "new creation in Christ".

A.) "The righteousness of God, in Christ".


Or, 3.) you are a deceived Legalst, a self-saver, who is trying to keep yourself saved, wrongly believing that God's Salvation is only as lasting as you try to be good enough day by day = to try to earn it or keep it from being lost.
So, you have broken Faith, wrong faith...., not dead faith.
It means You have no real faith in Christ to keep you saved so this means your faith is misplaced.
You are a person whom Paul defines in Galatians as ""fallen from Grace", "bewitched" by a deceiver's theology... who is going to also teach that Jesus's Sacrifice only starts your salvation, and then you must get up on your own Self Righteous Cross and do the rest for yourself, and you hope you get it right.
You'll have a "self savers list" of "do's and don't dos, and if you keep that list daily till you die, you believe... then you hope you'll go to heaven in the end"., And your list will include 4-5 verses that you misunderstood that you feel support your self effort to try to keep yourself saved.
On a fourm like this one, all you'll be able to want to talk about is your own sin, commandments and self effort, OSAS,... and losing your salvation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, which one of the 3.... are you Reader, as you are one of them. ????

 

[Anchorite]

It applies to whom it applies. We who say we have no sin and lie. We who walk in the truth. We who confess our sins.

I've gone through the chapter mapping out everything he wrote, to me it seems clear, and that vs. 9 is speaking of repentance unto salvation, confessing our sins to be forgiven and cleansed.

I do not believe the Christian who is justified in Christ needs additional forgiveness than what they received in salvation.

Much love!

Saved believers need to confess each sin they commit after being saved.

We are not just automatically forgiven, for that would make us hardened and callous toward sinning, if we did not have to acknowledge and admit our sins that we commit after being saved.

The “we” and “us” in 1 John 1 refer to saved believers from verse 1 to the end. If any verse applied only to the unsaved, it would say “you”.

Verse 9 does not say if we confess our sins, we get salvation. To get salvation, we confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:9,10.

I John

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, we are admonished by the NT to never try to perform for God to try to stay saved.
Paul devoted entire chapters in Romans and Ephesians to keep us from that critical ERROR that proves broken faith has happened to you.
We are directed to only Give Christ full credit for saving us and keeping us saved.
We are told that if we try to teach, "yes, Christ saved me, but now i have to do all these things to try to finish His work.....so, that is why i say that if i dont, then i wont go to heaven".
-


Let us remember that what im teaching is "Grace through Faith"....or "Justification by faith, without works or deeds of the Law".
This is known as Paul's Doctrine.
And all that He is showing us is that God became one and died on The Cross for all of us = to offer FREE eternal forgiveness and FREE eternal righteousness to "all who will believe".

"eternal forgiveness and eternal righteousness" are "Gifts" that God the Father gives to everyone who will place their faith in The Lord Jesus The Christ.

Paul teaches (Romans 5:1)... this as "being JUSTIFED by FAITH (before God).. we have peace with God.. through our Lord Jesus Christ'".
Notice that Paul is teaching that the only way to have peace with God, is "through Christ"... and that means, that Its The Cross of Christ that is where our eternal "Peace with God" is offered as "The Gift of Salvation".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen,

From The Lips of Jesus The Lord, He said from The Cross......"IT is Finished".

So, this is The Lord teaching that He has completed our Salvation on The Cross, = 2000 yrs ago.
Christ "finished it", He told us from THe Cross, and then He died and rose again to prove it.

So, if you are born again, you are one of these 3.

1.) I understand Salvation is Jesus on the Cross and i can't do that or keep that, i have only received it from God as His "Gift of Salvation".
And Paul says you are one of the """as many as be perfect""", which means "you've worked out your Eternal Salvaiton that Holy Eternal God has given you for FREE, perfeclty understanding that He only gave you this because you gave God your Faith in Christ, that He required.
You understand that The Cross is "Divine Exchange" whereby Christ becomes our sin and we become "Christ's righteousness", as our born again "new Creation in Christ".. Heavenly identity.
So, you understand that you exist eternally within : God's "Grace through faith" and you understand this perfectly.
And that knowledge is....>"all who believe in Jesus shall be saved". and : Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved the same way He saved me.


Or, 2.) you are someone who is "coming to the knowledge of the Truth" that : Jesus is Salvation, and this does not include any Moses Law or Commandment keeping or any type of "works" you can produce, such as water baptism, or trying to be like Christ.
You are beginning to believe that Jesus is not just the "door" and the "way", He is Eternal Life and the Blood Atonment and God's "imputed righteosness: given to you forever, solely based on : Our "faith is counted by God as (Christ's) righteousness" (imputed to us).
You understand that this verse is describing you as a "new creation in Christ".

A.) "The righteousness of God, in Christ".


Or, 3.) you are a deceived Legalst, a self-saver, who is trying to keep yourself saved, wrongly believing that God's Salvation is only as lasting as you try to be good enough day by day = to try to earn it or keep it from being lost.
So, you have broken Faith, wrong faith...., not dead faith.
It means You have no real faith in Christ to keep you saved so this means your faith is misplaced.
You are a person whom Paul defines in Galatians as ""fallen from Grace", "bewitched" by a deceiver's theology... who is going to also teach that Jesus's Sacrifice only starts your salvation, and then you must get up on your own Self Righteous Cross and do the rest for yourself, and you hope you get it right.
You'll have a "self savers list" of "do's and don't dos, and if you keep that list daily till you die, then you hope you'll go to heaven in the end".
On a fourm like this one, all you'll be able to want to talk about is your own sin, commandments and self effort, OSAS,... and losing your salvation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, which one of the 3.... are you Reader, as you are one of them. ????

Do you believe obedience to your conscience where His laws are written is a work? Going against your conscience is from our will, and those sins are willfully committed against your new nature (if born again of the Spirit). This is why 1 John 5:18 tells us to "keep ourselves." Is keeping yourself, a work?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The “we” and “us” in 1 John 1 refer to saved believers from verse 1 to the end. If any verse applied only to the unsaved, it would say “you”.

This is a mistake that westerners make when reading what the EASTERN apostles wrote. The apostles always wrote to everyone when a general letter to the whole congregation, not just Christians as the books are not just for Christians, but, to the Gnostic believers in their congregations that need to know their doctrines are corrupting people. 1 John 4:1-3 is about Gnostics.

It is the same thing in Paul's letter to the Romans in chapter 7. Verse one says who he is writing to: those who knew the law. Verses 14-25 are about what it is like before being born again. Only verses 5-6 is about a Christian, and verse 9 (how old was Paul anyway!) is about those living BEFORE Moses received the law 1,500 years from when Paul wrote this, and AFTER Moses received the law.

 

[Anchorite]

This is a mistake that westerners make when reading what the EASTERN apostles wrote. The apostles always wrote to everyone when a general letter to the whole congregation, not just Christians as the books are not just for Christians, but, to the Gnostic believers in their congregations that need to know their doctrines are corrupting people. 1 John 4:1-3 is about Gnostics.

It is the same thing in Paul's letter to the Romans in chapter 7. Verse one says who he is writing to: those who knew the law. Verses 14-25 are about what it is like before being born again. Only verses 5-6 is about a Christian, and verse 9 (how old was Paul anyway!) is about those living BEFORE Moses received the law 1,500 years from when Paul wrote this, and AFTER Moses received the law.

Your mistake is imposing restrictions on the scriptures that comply with your interpretation.

 

[Lizbeth]

That is a darn good question, Lizbeth.

I agree that with God, all things are possible. The founder of my denomination, John Wesley, also taught that it was possible and something to be sought after, though he never claimed to have achieved it himself. But my empirical observation is, I don't see it in myself, and I don't see it in others. And some who do claim it for themselves (not necessarily speaking of anyone on this thread) are so obviously eaten up by pride that I've become cynical about the whole operation.

I'm not there yet either. But there do seem to be some good witnesses. I've been reading some of Oswald Chambers' and Andrew Murray's writings, in case you would like to check them out. And the bible seems to point to it all over the place once we start to see it. Being one with Christ....that is the bridal imagery we see in scripture. I don't believe we have to wait for that until after we die physically.....only after we die to ourselves. James talks about both an early and latter rain and having long patience for it. The pearl of great price parable speaks of burying the treasure in the field and then going away to sell all that he had to buy the field. That is similar to the rich young ruler, where Jesus said if he wants to be perfect he needs to sell all that he has and then come follow Him. I believe it costs everything we have and are, a giving up of our own will and self-rule and submitting to Christ's rule and will..........can anyone just willy nilly decide to do that themselves? I think we must need His Spirit and grace in order to wholly give ourselves to the Lord in that way....what some call a second work of grace or second blessing Jesus being both the Author and Finisher of our faith (there are so many scriptures speaking to this subject really that we didn't use to realize were speaking of it).

Nobody preaches it in mainstream churches that I know of, but I'm sure that would be helpful if only......faith cometh by hearing, like when we initially came to faith, for most of us. I believe the church is going to need this in the last days tribulation particularly. May the Lord restore this truth to His people. (At least I believe it is true, always subject to the Lord's correction or tweeking.)

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, we are admonished by the NT to never try to perform for God to try to stay saved.
Paul devoted entire chapters in Romans and Ephesians to keep us from that critical ERROR that proves broken faith has happened to you.
We are directed to only Give Christ full credit for saving us and keeping us saved.
We are told that if we try to teach, "yes, Christ saved me, but now i have to do all these things to try to finish His work.....so, that is why i say that if i dont, then i wont go to heaven".
-
-
Let us remember that what im teaching is "Grace through Faith"....or "Justification by faith, without works or deeds of the Law".
This is known as Paul's Doctrine, or Pauline Theology.
Ive taught it for a long time, as its the greatest truth and the most wonderful gift that is freely given to us by Holy God who loves each of us exactly as much as He loves His own Son, Jesus.
Reader, most of you belong to God, and God wants you to know that He loves you no less then He loves His "only Begotten Son, Jesus".

Paul is showing us what he teaches as "the simplicity that is IN CHRIST">.... and that is explaining that : God became one of us and died on The Cross for all of us = to offer FREE eternal forgiveness and FREE eternal righteousness to "all who will believe".

"eternal forgiveness and eternal righteousness" are "Gifts" that God the Father gives to everyone who will place their faith in The Lord Jesus The Christ.

Paul teaches (Romans 5:1)... this as "being JUSTIFED by FAITH (before God).. we have peace with God.. through our Lord Jesus Christ'".
Notice that Paul is teaching that the only way to have peace with God, is "through Christ"... and that means, that Its The Cross of Christ that is where our eternal "Peace with God" is offered as "The Gift of Salvation".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen,

From The Lips of Jesus The Lord, He said from The Cross......"IT is Finished".

So, this is The Lord teaching that He has completed our Salvation on The Cross, = 2000 yrs ago.
Christ "finished it", He told us from THe Cross, and then He died and rose again to prove it.

So, if you are born again, you are one of these 3.

1.) I understand Salvation is Jesus on the Cross and i can't do that or keep that, i have only received it from God as His "Gift of Salvation".
And Paul says you are one of the """as many as be perfect""", which means "you've worked out your Eternal Salvation that Holy Eternal God has given you for FREE, perfeclty understanding that He only gave you this because you gave God your Faith in Christ, that He required.
You understand that The Cross is The "Divine Exchange" whereby Christ becomes our sin and we become "Christ's righteousness", as our born again "new Creation in Christ".. Heavenly identity.
So, you understand that you exist eternally within : God's "Grace through faith" and you understand this perfectly.
And that knowledge is....>"all who believe in Jesus shall be saved". and : Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved the same way He saved me.


Or, 2.) you are someone who is "coming to the knowledge of the Truth" that : Jesus is Salvation, and this does not include any Moses Law or Commandment keeping or any type of "works" you can produce, such as water baptism, or trying to be like Christ.
You are beginning to believe that Jesus is not just the "door" and the "way", He is Eternal Life and the Blood Atonment and God's "imputed righteosness: given to you forever, solely based on : Our "faith is counted by God as (Christ's) righteousness" (imputed to us).
You understand that this verse is describing you as a "new creation in Christ".

A.) "The righteousness of God, in Christ".


Or, 3.) you are a deceived Legalst, a self-saver, who is trying to keep yourself saved, wrongly believing that God's Salvation is only as lasting as you try to be good enough day by day = to try to earn it or keep it from being lost.
So, you have broken Faith, wrong faith...., not dead faith.
It means You have no real faith in Christ to keep you saved so this means your faith is misplaced.
You are a person whom Paul defines in Galatians as ""fallen from Grace", "bewitched" by a deceiver's theology... who is going to also teach that Jesus's Sacrifice only starts your salvation, and then you must get up on your own Self Righteous Cross and do the rest for yourself, and you hope you get it right.
You'll have a "self savers list" of "do's and don't dos, and if you keep that list daily till you die, you believe... then you hope you'll go to heaven in the end"., And your list will include 4-5 verses that you misunderstood that you feel support your self effort to try to keep yourself saved.
On a fourm like this one, all you'll be able to want to talk about is your own sin, commandments and self effort, OSAS,... and losing your salvation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, which one of the 3.... are you Reader, as you are one of them. ????

Oy vey brother....I hardly know where to start and I haven't even read your entire post.. Faith without works is dead, no? It's kind of a two sided coin, we need to balance all one side against the other side, so to speak. There needs to be some fruit, else the barren and fruitless tree is in danger of being cut down. Dog returning to its vomit is not going to make it, or a sow returning to the mire........lest they repent. So MANY scrips. Yes we are being kept by the Lord and all glory is to Him.........so long as we remain in the Lord. Three fold cord is not EASILY broken, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to break it. We need to have a healthy fear of the Lord, not take anything for granted, because it aint' over until it's over.