When Jesus "took away" your sin, did He leave behind the source, the sin nature?

[ProDeo]

Then what causes "fellowship to be broken" (I don't think it is) when you sin?

For example -

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But I think you know all that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No I didn't know they forbid jewelry. I imagine you can't braid your hair on a hot day either? The dietary rules were enough for me to know there is something amiss. In several ways they are like the JWs but not as bad. I don't mean alike so much in doctrine per say, but in their hierarchy's tactics. It's remarkable.-in a disturbing way.

I'm glad you were able to keep some friends. What caused you to leave the SDA church in the first place? I had forgotten you were SDA.
What made you keep going to both SDA and another church? Were you raised SDA from birth?

Yes, from birth, and when I was 23 I was engaged to a Church of Christ man and told him we couldn't marry until we were the same denomination. He couldn't debate, which I later found quite disturbing that he never had an opinion about anything. But back then he called one of his friends and we went to his house where he and I could discuss/debate our beliefs with the Bible. After four hours, it was like a light went on, and I finally saw the difference between law and grace and stopped being SDA. It wasn't until decades later I found that his definition of grace was wrong, but at least it got me out of the SDA's.

It was when I was reading Hebrews 10:25 that I decided to fill up my whole weekend with church. Seeing as the SDA denomination was where I was brought up, I felt quite comfortable, but never hid the fact that I wasn't SDA.

 

[marks]

For example -

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But I think you know all that.

That doesn't answer my question.

You've said that if you sin and you know it, your fellowship with God is broken, but if you don't know it, then it's not. How do you account for that?

If sin itself "breaks fellowship", then it should happen whether you are aware of your sin or not. But it it's only when you are aware of your sin, doesn't that mean it's because you think sin breaks fellowship, and so since you are expecting your fellowship with God to be broken, that is your experience?

You don't have to answer me . . . but think about this, pray on it.

We are reconciled to God through Jesus, and by that same faith we stand in His grace. Faith.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

@ProDeo ....

Your verse is not talking to the born again Christians, who are already in the Kingdom of God, having been born again into it the very instant that they gave God their faith in Christ.
So, they dont need to "inherit" what they are already a part of.... which is the KOG.
This is why the born again are "seated in heavenly places", already.

"Heavenly Places" = is the KOG.

Reader, if you are not born again, if you are just religious and water baptized.... then the verse that says that f""ornicators and liars, and all the other "works of the flesh" will not "inherit" the KOG".....= is talking about you and to you.
So, in that case, you are not a Christian yet, and you need to become one before Hebrews 9:27 takes you away to a place where The Cross of Christ can't become your eternal blood atonement and your eternal : " justification by faith".

 

[PS95]

Yes, from birth, and when I was 23 I was engaged to a Church of Christ man and told him we couldn't marry until we were the same denomination. He couldn't debate, which I later found quite disturbing that he never had an opinion about anything.

Being born in can be very hard to overcome fully since it's been engrained into our minds at a young age.
Did I ever struggle for a time... to this day have to fight back some if it~ when it creeps in.
Church of Christ is another denomination that came out of the same Millerite false prophecy that formed SDA's and others- Jws spun off it later, as well.
Out of all of those that sprung from that- I think Church of Christ is the least heretical.
It's interesting that all of them- claim to be the only true church.
You and your hubby divorced? I'm sorry that happened.
You have spent the rest of your life unmarried? I'm happy that you were able to keep some friends on earth and- most all of, Jesus!

But back then he called one of his friends and we went to his house where he and I could discuss/debate our beliefs with the Bible. After four hours, it was like a light went on, and I finally saw the difference between law and grace and stopped being SDA. It wasn't until decades later I found that his definition of grace was wrong, but at least it got me out of the SDA's.

I can relate to that light suddenly going on. I was astonished..!
Saved by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works of the law is grace.
- abiding in Him and walking in the Spirit are proof that we have received that grace.
How do SDA, CoC and you differ on grace?
It appears to me that SDA requires works of the law such as dietary laws and Saturday keeping, etc. I have no issue with those as opinions but to make mark of the beast = Sunday worship is when they flipped their lids.

It was when I was reading Hebrews 10:25 that I decided to fill up my whole weekend with church. Seeing as the SDA denomination was where I was brought up, I felt quite comfortable, but never hid the fact that I wasn't SDA.

Do you ever feel the old idea of Saturday keeping is still mandatory for salvation and have to remind yourself that's false?
How do you see the Sabbath now, if you don't mind me asking?
I have a hard time helping SDA's. They twist the simplest verses.
Jws also do that with different verses though, of course.
Like Jws they seem stuck and immovable on some things that cause them to see all others as false, but themselves.
I could be mistaken about some SDA things- that's just my take.
I know jw teachings far better having been raised in that.
SDA's are very different because I can have good discussions with them on many things- just not on their the sticklers.
Whereas with Jws- there is very little common ground, if any. They use words and phrases that we do- but they mean very different things. People don't realize that- and they wont tell you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You and your hubby divorced? I'm sorry that happened.
You have spent the rest of your life unmarried? I'm happy that you were able to keep some friends on earth and- most all of, Jesus!

Unfortunately, I did marry again. But for the whole week before the wedding, God was saying, no, but I reasoned, "well, he's a Christian" and married him anyway. There is a verse about Jesus that He learned obedience through suffering, that I can relate to. He divorced me for the wife of his best friend. That was 2001. He was the last man I even kissed. He died four years ago, but my first husband is still alive I believe. But even if he died, my whole heart belongs to Jesus.

How do SDA, CoC and you differ on grace?
It appears to me that SDA requires works of the law such as dietary laws and Saturday keeping, etc. I have no issue with those as opinions but to make mark of the beast = Sunday worship is when they flipped their lids.

I asked my mother's boyfriend who was a SDA pastor, about all the other laws regarding the Sabbath, like driving far, and he said, those are covered under grace as unmerited favor. CoC was like most other denominations - unmerited favor. Do you know in church history when they started putting "unmerited" in front of favor? Yes, Jesus died while we were yet sinners, but that is the why, but not the what that is given to us to be conformed to be like Him. I now believe grace is power. Do a word studies on grace, gospel and power. You will find that grace and power interchange.

Do you ever feel the old idea of Saturday keeping is still mandatory for salvation and have to remind yourself that's false?
How do you see the Sabbath now, if you don't mind me asking?

I did at first and for years afterward, but I would do a study and come back to the same conclusion that we are not under the law. Now, I've come to a new conclusion. That the whole New Covenant is the true Sabbath rest of abiding in Him. And it is 24/7/365 always. Hebrews 4. "Today." That is right now.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If John was saying that once you confess your sins, God takes away your ability to sin, he could've ended the letter right there. He wouldn't have needed to spend the next 4 chapters telling his little flock to stay away from sin.

Sorry, I missed this one because it wasn't addressed to me.

1 John 1:9 and Acts 2:38 are the same event. The moment you are born again of the Spirit and given the Holy Spirit to not sin. "All unrighteousness" is the desire to sin also. But we learn in 1 John 3 that the type of sin we are cleansed of first is lawlessness. And vs 9 says what I just said, that with the seed of the Father, the Holy Spirit, we "cannot sin." But it is this TYPE of sin - lawlessness. Against the commands of God.

Then in the 5th chapter we find there are two types of sin, not just lawlessness, but sins NOT unto death. And in the old Testament, our schoolmaster, Numbers 15:22-36 shows there was a sacrifice for unintentional sins, sins not unto death; but NO sacrifice for sins unto death against the tiniest command from God, and they stoned him to death. This is the difference between sins not unto death, a sacrificed covered it, and sins unto death, the putting to death of the person committing it. No sacrifice. This is what Hebrews 10:26-31 means. Willful sins are lawlessness. 1 John 1:7 does not cover this type of sin, only unintentional sins which are immature fruit of the Spirit and specified in 2 Peter 1:5-7.

 

[PS95]

Unfortunately, I did marry again. But for the whole week before the wedding, God was saying, no, but I reasoned, "well, he's a Christian" and married him anyway. There is a verse about Jesus that He learned obedience through suffering, that I can relate to. He divorced me for the wife of his best friend. That was 2001. He was the last man I even kissed. He died four years ago, but my first husband is still alive I believe. But even if he died, my whole heart belongs to Jesus.

Yep - we reason thru many things.. That reminds me- the very first time I felt God speak to me I was in the middle of saying something to someone and I and was told to stop. I wasn't sure of what to think. I didn't listen and finished my sentence. It wasn't til a couple of years later that I realized what I had done.
do not grieve the Spirit.. ugh

I asked my mother's boyfriend who was a SDA pastor, about all the other laws regarding the Sabbath, like driving far, and he said, those are covered under grace as unmerited favor. CoC was like most other denominations - unmerited favor.

I was taught it was underserved kindness but there never was any!!
I was taught to do whatever the Jws leaders said (tons of rules) and if successful, when I died my sins would be paid all up by my death- and then I would have a 2nd chance to earn life in a 1000 yr paradise earth- being resurrected in my same mortal sinful flesh-- if I obeyed all of the new rules given by the special elect Jws and Jesus who were in heaven ruling over earth.
The cherry on top was that if I was a really good Jw I would be one of the people teaching the new rules to the other resurrected mortal sinful flesh people who were all sin released by dying.
I wasn't even sure if I cared. It was too hard.
Death was just sleep- - so I figured I could just sleep.

Do you know in church history when they started putting "unmerited" in front of favor? Yes, Jesus died while we were yet sinners, but that is the why, but not the what that is given to us to be conformed to be like Him. I now believe grace is power. Do a word studies on grace, gospel and power. You will find that grace and power interchange.

How I see it is different than what I read on here-- I see that power also..
Grace pardons us and it also transforms us. Titus 2:11-12
“The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly passions.”
I see it as that justifying us but also educates, disciplines, and empowers holy living.

Hebrews 4:6 urges us to “draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need”

Its a Progressive sanctification --Paul says we are justified, sanctified and glorified, but we are also actively being those and we will fully be..

I did at first and for years afterward, but I would do a study and come back to the same conclusion that we are not under the law. Now, I've come to a new conclusion. That the whole New Covenant is the true Sabbath rest of abiding in Him. And it is 24/7/365 always. Hebrews 4. "Today." That is right now.

Yes!!!! I agree with you on Hebrews 4.
I learned that about 30 years ago after hearing an SDA type of preacher (Herbert Armstrong) on tv, and I was troubled by him, so I prayed and read Hebrews- and my eyes were opened to that. truth. when we in Christ rest from our works of the law.. wow- the Sabbath has such a beautiful meaning!
I have had zero success showing SDA's on here that passage.
Ellen-ism takes them over. I understand how that can be, so I feel for them.
Do you find it really difficult too?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yep - we reason thru many things.. That reminds me- the very first time I felt God speak to me I was in the middle of saying something to someone and I and was told to stop. I wasn't sure of what to think. I didn't listen and finished my sentence. It wasn't til a couple of years later that I realized what I had done.
do not grieve the Spirit.. ugh

I know exactly what you mean when God says, "stop." I now stop too. LOL

I was taught it was underserved kindness but there never was any!!
I was taught to do whatever the Jws leaders said (tons of rules) and if successful, when I died my sins would be paid all up by my death- and then I would have a 2nd chance to earn life in a 1000 yr paradise earth- being resurrected in my same mortal sinful flesh-- if I obeyed all of the new rules given by the special elect Jws and Jesus who were in heaven ruling over earth.
The cherry on top was that if I was a really good Jw I would be one of the people teaching the new rules to the other resurrected mortal sinful flesh people who were all sin released by dying.
I wasn't even sure if I cared. It was too hard.
Death was just sleep- - so I figured I could just sleep.

Wow, I never knew they were such a cult. I've always defended them, but dying for your own sins is antiChrist.

How I see it is different than what I read on here-- I see that power also..
Grace pardons us and it also transforms us. Titus 2:11-12
“The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly passions.”
I see it as that justifying us but also educates, disciplines, and empowers holy living.

Hebrews 4:6 urges us to “draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need”

Its a Progressive sanctification --Paul says we are justified, sanctified and glorified, but we are also actively being those and we will fully be..

I see the wording a little differently. See what you think. 1 Corinthians 9:11 says we were washed, we were sanctified, we were justified. Therefore, sanctification is not the right word as it happened when we were first cleansed and set apart.

And Romans 8:30 says, 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Sanctified is not listed, nor is cleansed, as they are all under "justification." So instead of Progressive sanctification, I am now calling it Progressive glorification as Jesus gives us his glory, John 17:20-23. The modern church teaches that glorification is after death and has to do with our body of sin. But the body is like a floppy puppet, that our new nature controls, which are out spirit and soul. The spirit is our mind, so therefore the soul has to be our heart and conscience.

This change in wording happened one day when after years of questioning progressive sanctification as past tense, I prayed and said, "I see sanctification as always in the past tense, so what do You call this maturing progress we go through. Immediately, I heard Him loud and clear say, "glorification." And like a puzzle piece, it fit perfectly. I had never heard anyone ever say that glorification could be now.

Yes!!!! I agree with you on Hebrews 4.
I learned that about 30 years ago after hearing an SDA type of preacher (Herbert Armstrong) on tv, and I was troubled by him, so I prayed and read Hebrews- and my eyes were opened to that. truth. when we in Christ rest from our works of the law.. wow- the Sabbath has such a beautiful meaning!
I have had zero success showing SDA's on here that passage.
Ellen-ism takes them over. I understand how that can be, so I feel for them.
Do you find it really difficult too?

When I went back this last time for fellowship, I made it clear that I would not debate theology, I was just there for fellowship. But the miracles were just too much for them. It was like I was claiming to be EGW; like the Pharisees who said Jesus was claiming to be God. LOL

 

[William Barton]

Jesus paid the penalty.

A debt that is paid is no longer a debt.

 

[marks]

I realize now that I need to always let the Spirit control me- every second. I'm just not always able to do that. Does anyone know how?

For me the answer is found here:

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

With the same faith by which we are saved, by this faith we have access into the grace in which we stand. For me this means standing against the flesh.

What is this faith? Jesus is enough. That Jesus is sufficient for every need or failing in my life, throughout my life.

No new forgiveness needed, no break in fellowship for any reason, no possibility that God would return me to death, Jesus is enough.

And when I have this faith, I find the world and the flesh cease to matter, they don't find a voice.

I still get triggered by things, and will find I've left the Spirit walk, and am walking according to flesh. As quickly as I realize this, my endeavor is to return to that confidence that I am still loved, still reconciled, and though I have stumbled God has not. He is my life, my strength, my sanctification.

Because this is based in Jesus and not in me, Jesus doesn't change, and therefore my salvation in Him does not change.

For me, walking in the Spirit is what God saved us for, to live the new life. So everything in life is designed to either produce fruit through me as I walk in the Spirit, or it is to train and repair my faith so I can continue to walk in the Spirit.

I wouldn't describe walking in the Spirit as an "altered state", rather, just that I'm at peace inside with God, and there is nothing in my heart and mind aside from serving Him, singing praises, speaking with Him, doing the next good thing to be done.

Until I'm triggered, and respond in flesh. The training continues.

Much love!

@Lambano

 

[PS95]

For me the answer is found here:

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

With the same faith by which we are saved, by this faith we have access into the grace in which we stand. For me this means standing against the flesh.

What is this faith? Jesus is enough. That Jesus is sufficient for every need or failing in my life, throughout my life.

No new forgiveness needed, no break in fellowship for any reason, no possibility that God would return me to death, Jesus is enough.

And when I have this faith, I find the world and the flesh cease to matter, they don't find a voice.

I agree, but I would not call it "new forgiveness" but simply acknowledging an error made known to me, and expressing agreement with God (which is what confessing means) that it was wrong- and thanking Him for the cross.
I usually also ask for help not to do that again.
There is nothing wrong with that- and many Christians do the same. Some here like to tell us that we disgrace God by confessing a new sin. I totally reject that. It's a part of loving fellowship- communication- honestly, and constantly seeking His face.

I've told you this before- similar to a marriage- if I sinned by being rude to my husband -I apologize to him. I don't fear he is going to leave me- but our relationship suffered a wrong that I am responsible for causing. It's just the decent loving reaction to dishonoring another.- a relationship. Just because I call it confession, and you don't, does not make it much different. I am confessing to my husband - so what? Would he automatically forgive it even if I did not ask. Yes he does, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't own it and apologize!
I also from time to time ask to be free from my sins I committed without realizing. It makes me feel happy. Job also did that for his sons, in case they sinned.
I always thought that was a wonderful thing to do. Why not? It's not out of fear but love & respect.
James used the word, confess- so did John.
- I think the scriptures teach we should confess sin even after initial salvation. For me- it keep me humbled and grateful! There is nothing wrong with that.

I still get triggered by things, and will find I've left the Spirit walk, and am walking according to flesh. As quickly as I realize this, my endeavor is to return to that confidence that I am still loved, still reconciled, and though I have stumbled God has not. He is my life, my strength, my sanctification.

What I put in bold there was my only Q.
Can we prevent that from happening to begin with? it would be only by always walking in the spirit, but if it's possible- I haven't mastered it. I don't rule it out.

Because this is based in Jesus and not in me, Jesus doesn't change, and therefore my salvation in Him does not change.

For me, walking in the Spirit is what God saved us for, to live the new life. So everything in life is designed to either produce fruit through me as I walk in the Spirit, or it is to train and repair my faith so I can continue to walk in the Spirit.

agree

I wouldn't describe walking in the Spirit as an "altered state", rather, just that I'm at peace inside with God, and there is nothing in my heart and mind aside from serving Him, singing praises, speaking with Him, doing the next good thing to be done.

There is a difference imo from walking in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.
When I am filled there is a tad of an altered state- on a mission- nothing can stop me- so to speak. That filling is fleeting.Once I've done what I was led to do it's over.

Until I'm triggered, and respond in flesh. The training continues.

Yes it does and I believe that He will complete us.

Much love!

@Lambano

 

[PS95]

I know exactly what you mean when God says, "stop." I now stop too. LOL

hahahha live and learn!

Wow, I never knew they were such a cult. I've always defended them, but dying for your own sins is antiChrist.

It's very serious and I barely scratched the surface. Deception is very tricky by definition.
They use words and phrases similar to us but they have very different meanings. It is utter deception.

To them Jesus was a man who made it possible for them to earn life by themselves in their mortal & sinful resurrected flesh over 1k years.
Born again is a joke to them- they are a mess from top to bottom.

I see the wording a little differently. See what you think. 1 Corinthians 9:11 says we were washed, we were sanctified, we were justified. Therefore, sanctification is not the right word as it happened when we were first cleansed and set apart.

Paul used terms as if they were in the present fulfilled-- when he was speaking in faith that they will come to pass. We see that with all 3 terms-
We are justified and we are being justified if you read James. Because we are AND will be-- by faith. God's knows this ahead of time-- just as He knew Abraham would be perfected by faith. He would never have said Abraham was justified by faith if He was not already certain that Abraham would obey with Isaac some 30+ years later. I hope that made sense to you.
Sanctification is being made holy--- and is also ongoing. Paul used that term there the same way.
God call things that will be as if they are.

And Romans 8:30 says, 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Sanctified is not listed, nor is cleansed, as they are all under "justification." So instead of Progressive sanctification, I am now calling it Progressive glorification as Jesus gives us his glory, John 17:20-23. The modern church teaches that glorification is after death and has to do with our body of sin. But the body is like a floppy puppet, that our new nature controls, which are out spirit and soul. The spirit is our mind, so therefore the soul has to be our heart and conscience.

Same idea.

This change in wording happened one day when after years of questioning progressive sanctification as past tense, I prayed and said, "I see sanctification as always in the past tense, so what do You call this maturing progress we go through. Immediately, I heard Him loud and clear say, "glorification." And like a puzzle piece, it fit perfectly. I had never heard anyone ever say that glorification could be now.

Well, we go from sanctification to glorification.

When I went back this last time for fellowship, I made it clear that I would not debate theology, I was just there for fellowship. But the miracles were just too much for them. It was like I was claiming to be EGW; like the Pharisees who said Jesus was claiming to be God. LOL

Yes well the one surefire way to get a Jw to call you a demon is to tell them about any miracle.

 

[marks]

I agree, but I would not call it "new forgiveness" but simply acknowledging an error made known to me, and expressing agreement with God (which is what confessing means) that it was wrong- and thanking Him for the cross.
I usually also ask for help not to do that again.

Ditto.

There is nothing wrong with that- and many Christians do the same. Some here like to tell us that we disgrace God by confessing a new sin. I totally reject that. It's a part of loving fellowship- communication- honestly, and constantly seeking His face.

Agree.

I've told you this before- similar to a marriage- if I sinned by being rude to my husband -I apologize to him. I don't fear he is going to leave me- but our relationship suffered a wrong that I am responsible for causing. It's just the decent loving reaction to dishonoring another.- a relationship. Just because I call it confession, and you don't, does not make it much different. I am confessing to my husband - so what? Would he automatically forgive it even if I did not ask. Yes he does, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't own it and apologize!
I also from time to time ask to be free from my sins I committed without realizing. It makes me feel happy. Job also did that for his sons, in case they sinned.
I always thought that was a wonderful thing to do. Why not? It's not out of fear but love & respect.
James used the word, confess- so did John.
- I think the scriptures teach we should confess sin even after initial salvation. For me- it keep me humbled and grateful! There is nothing wrong with that.

Agree. I confess before God routinely, whether it be about my sins or about other things, to keep my mind aligned with Him.

I'm not saying I don't confess to God, but I'm not seeking forgiveness in doing so, as you've also described.

What I put in bold there was my only Q.
Can we prevent that from happening to begin with? it would be only by always walking in the spirit, but if it's possible- I haven't mastered it. I don't rule it out.

The only time I've experienced continuous walking in the Spirit 24/7 was a particular work God did, with significantly noticeable beginning and ending points. For me this lasted about 5 weeks.

To me, it's like exersizing, the more we do so, the more we are able to do so. Like training.

There is a difference imo from walking in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.
When I am filled there is a tad of an altered state- on a mission- nothing can stop me- so to speak. That filling is fleeting.Once I've done what I was led to do it's over.

Yes, I agree, I experienced this yesterday. I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and sometimes it's extremely difficult to perform physical activities, even walking. It comes and goes, and this weekend was coming on strong. One of our rooms was partly flooded, and I had to do a fair amount of quick work to get everything out of the water and get it sopped up. God gave me that filling that carried me through the work, I was fine! Afterward, I was returned to my "normal" state. Whether it be for something like this, or for preaching, or whatever, Yes, I've seen this also.

Much love!