When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[dad]

Let’s not jump the gun, as everyone is always doing.

We are still in birth pangs at the moment:

Luk 21:7 And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

Luk 21:8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

Luk 21:9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Luk 21:11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

There are currently no terrors and great signs in the heavens so terrifying that hearts are failing from fear.

There are currently not a lot of things. We are not waiting for all these things to happen. We were told that when these things start to happen. Not even when 'all these things begin to happen'. Looking at the sequence of what happens in the last several years, a lot of the real fearful signs in the heavens happen near the very end. The stars going out, the sun and moon going dark, etc. The time when we know our redemption is truly near is when we begin to see those thing

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. That seems to mean that we need not be here for all of the things!

 

[Curtis]

There are currently not a lot of things. We are not waiting for all these things to happen. We were told that when these things start to happen. Not even when 'all these things begin to happen'. Looking at the sequence of what happens in the last several years, a lot of the real fearful signs in the heavens happen near the very end. The stars going out, the sun and moon going dark, etc. The time when we know our redemption is truly near is when we begin to see those thing

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. That seems to mean that we need not be here for all of the things!

Near to God is a long time for mortals. A thousand years is as a day - it’s been the last days for two days, on the eternal being time scale.

 

[dad]

Near to God is a long time for mortals. A thousand years is as a day - it’s been the last days for two days, on the eternal being time scale.

No. He actually spelled out that the people who start to see those things would not die before all of those things were done, that generation. No thousand years or any long ages.

 

[Curtis]

No. He actually spelled out that the people who start to see those things would not die before all of those things were done, that generation. No thousand years or any long ages.

They did see it before they died - the mount of transfiguration was a vision of Jesus in His kingdom.

 

[ewq1938]

They did see it before they died - the mount of transfiguration was a vision of Jesus in His kingdom.

Two people from his heavenly kingdom came to Earth to meet with Jesus so it's not a vision of Jesus in his heavenly kingdom.

 

[dad]

They did see it before they died - the mount of transfiguration was a vision of Jesus in His kingdom.

They did not see the things Jesus spoke about that were about the end of the world. The transfiguration had nothing to do with the end of the world, and was already history when Jesus spoke in Luke 21 about the end. You are not even in left field, you are out of the ballpark.

 

[Curtis]

Two people from his heavenly kingdom came to Earth to meet with Jesus so it's not a vision of Jesus in his heavenly kingdom.

It wasn’t about a heavenly kingdom, but the eternal earthly kingdom He will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, per Isaiah 9, and Luke 1, and other clear prophecies that those who don’t read the whole bible, don’t know.

You can’t read the whole bible and be an amillennialist

 

[Timtofly]

They did not see the things Jesus spoke about that were about the end of the world. The transfiguration had nothing to do with the end of the world, and was already history when Jesus spoke in Luke 21 about the end. You are not even in left field, you are out of the ballpark.

The transfiguration was the full image of God, Adam was created with.

At the Second Coming the whole church from all time will be glorified. That is translated back into the full image of God, as a son of God.

The end that Jesus was answering was the end at the Second Coming. The fig tree blooming is the first sign of the end.

It was not antichrists, plural. It was not wars and rumours of wars. It was not even a single war nor world ruler that is a sign of the Second Coming. There is no sign but the Second Coming itself. No one can know when that happens. The point has always been to be prepared. Even prepared always over the last 1992 years. The only time one does not need to be prepared is after the Second Coming itself. Obviously then it is too late to prepare.

No one was told, that we know of, in the first century, that it would happen 2,000 years later. If that were the case, then all would just wait and no one would have to prepare except that last generation.

Now we have people that claim the "soon", and the reason every generation had to be prepared, was because it did happen in the first century. Yet no early church father claimed: they no longer had to be prepared for the Second Coming, because it already happened.


In fact Paul pointed out some had thought, even prior to 60AD, that it had already happened, and they missed it. Paul assured them it had not happened yet. We can know when it happens, because it is not a secret event. All on earth will witness the event.

All will know the church was glorified. All will know who is left on the earth, waiting for God to decide their future. And then Satan will step forward and still decieve many. Many will still reject Christ as the Messiah and the Prince to come. Especially when Christ does condemn many to everlasting damnation. The moral outrage has been brewing against God since the Cross. That will not stop when God actually appears sitting on the GWT.

 

[ewq1938]

It wasn’t about a heavenly kingdom, but the eternal earthly kingdom He will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, per Isaiah 9, and Luke 1, and other clear prophecies that those who don’t read the whole bible, don’t know.

Eventually the Kingdom will be on the Earth but it wasn't at the transfiguration. Two people from the heavenly kingdom came to the Earth. That's it.

 

[Curtis]

Eventually the Kingdom will be on the Earth but it wasn't at the transfiguration. Two people from the heavenly kingdom came to the Earth. That's it.

That’s not it. Read the account.

The Transfiguration is significant because it was the glorification of the body of Jesus. Those with Him saw Jesus in His glory. The appearance of Moses and Elijah testified that Jesus was the one of whom the law and prophets spoke. The approving testimony of God the Father further confirmed the identity of Jesus.

In the Transfiguration of Jesus we have the various elements of the coming kingdom represented. There is the glorified King, those who will come into the kingdom through death, those who will come into the kingdom through the transformation of their bodies at the rapture of the church, those Jewish believers who will enter into the millennial reign of Christ in their earthly bodies, as well as the people from the various nations who will also enter into the millennium in non-glorified bodies.

 

[dad]

You are redeemed? From What?

In the Rapture we are redeemed in body. Do you believe in the Rapture?

 

[dad]

The end that Jesus was answering was the end at the Second Coming. The fig tree blooming is the first sign of the end.

Says who? We do not see Luke 21 saying that being redeemed means the time when Jesus and us return to earth! Why state something as fact when you made it up?

It was not antichrists, plural. It was not wars and rumours of wars. It was not even a single war nor world ruler that is a sign of the Second Coming. There is no sign but the Second Coming itself.

Yet He gave many signs. Why make things up?

No one can know when that happens

Who said we need to?

. The point has always been to be prepared.

No. The point of looking up is to be encouraged and know that the time is at hand. That is why Paul said encourage one another with these words. What sort of encouragement would it be for those starting to see some of the things happen if all we could expect was the hell of the tribulation?? If we are saved, we are prepared! It isn't like we climb 400 steps on our knees, and work at the church rummage sale to get more ready! Yes we should pray and watch and get right with God as best we can. But since it is only the saved He is calling up to meet Him, the way we are ready is to be saved.

Even prepared always over the last 1992 years.

No one ever began to see the things centuries ago. So they were not prepared for the end time. They were not living in it so ho and why would they be prepared? They were saved so they were prepared to meet Him at death. The OP was about that time when people actually began to see some of the tings He spoke about. No one else in history would ever see that except those alive when it happened!

The only time one does not need to be prepared is after the Second Coming itself. Obviously then it is too late to prepare.

You conflate the rapture with our return to earth. What we prepare for then is to come back to earth! If we are saved now we are prepared for the Rapture.

No one was told, that we know of, in the first century, that it would happen 2,000 years later. If that were the case, then all would just wait and no one would have to prepare except that last generation.

No one said they were. But He did prepare things for those who would be alive when the events happened. Once they BEGIN to see those things, then they are told to look up, this is IT!

Now we have people that claim the "soon", and the reason every generation had to be prepared, was because it did happen in the first century. Yet no early church father claimed: they no longer had to be prepared for the Second Coming, because it already happened.

Soon is relative. The people then were saved so they would have been raptured if that was the time for it. You need to specify what you mean by being 'prepared'. That almost sounds like some sort of works trip.

In fact Paul pointed out some had thought, even prior to 60AD, that it had already happened, and they missed it. Paul assured them it had not happened yet. We can know when it happens, because it is not a secret event. All on earth will witness the event.

Not the Rapture. He appears to US. The world sees Him only at the return to earth after the tribulation.

All will know the church was glorified.

Says who?? You actually thought that they would know and/or admit what happened at the Rapture? No. They will likely claim aliens took them or some such.

All will know who is left on the earth, waiting for God to decide their future.

Of course people will know who is still here.

 

[dad]

Currently are you redeemed & from what?

Try to get to some point. Our body is not redeemed yet.

 

[dad]

Is your spirit redeemed? If yes, from what?

Try to relate to the thread somehow. Yes of course the saved are saved. From death. From hell. From being away from God etc. Are you here to debate and discuss or attempt to parrot what you seem to think are loaded little questions?
When we begin to see the things Jesus spoke of, then our bodily full redemption is almost here. The issue is not whether we already are redeemed in other ways as well.

 

[Davy]

Try to relate to the thread somehow. Yes of course the saved are saved. From death. From hell. From being away from God etc. Are you here to debate and discuss or attempt to parrot what you seem to think are loaded little questions?
When we begin to see the things Jesus spoke of, then our bodily full redemption is almost here. The issue is not whether we already are redeemed in other ways as well.

Our physical flesh body is NOT... what is redeemed by Lord Jesus Christ. Thinking that Christ's redemption is to a brand new, or even rejuvenated flesh body is the old Jewish doctrine of asleep in the ground.

Apostle Paul taught our redeemed body is to a "spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:42-54). This corruptible (flesh body) MUST put on incorruption (spiritual body), AND, "this mortal" (liable to die soul), MUST put on "immortality" (deathlessness, eternal Life only in Christ Jesus).

 

[dad]

Our physical flesh body is NOT... what is redeemed by Lord Jesus Christ.

The dead in Christ will rise to new bodies, so yes it is a redemption of the body also.
Thinking that Christ's redemption is to a brand new, or even rejuvenated flesh body is the old Jewish doctrine of asleep in the ground.

Apostle Paul taught our redeemed body is to a "spiritual body" (1 Thessalonians 15:42-54). This corruptible (flesh body) MUST put on incorruption (spiritual body), AND, "this mortal" (liable to die soul), MUST put on "immortality" (deathlessness, eternal Life only in Christ Jesus).

And the dead bodies rise and, like trading in an old car, we get new bodies. Incorruptible ones.

 

[ewq1938]

And the dead bodies rise and, like trading in an old car, we get new bodies. Incorruptible ones.

Then the old body doesn't need to rise since there is already a new body in heaven waiting for the souls of the dead to resurrect into the new body. Only the unsaved return to their old body at the final resurrection.

 

[Davy]

The dead in Christ will rise to new bodies, so yes it is a redemption of the body also.

That's not what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

You are defaulting to an old Jewish tradition. The Old Testament Jews especially, only understood about the raising of the dead in the sense of flesh being raised. The New Testament teaches differently, 2 Corinthians 5 for example.

 

[Davy]

Then the old body doesn't need to rise since there is already a new body in heaven waiting for the souls of the dead to resurrect into the new body. Only the unsaved return to their old body at the final resurrection.

That goes against New Testament Scripture also.

Apostle Paul taught that we put on a "spiritual body", not another flesh body. Not only that, but Apostle Paul was emphatic that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[ewq1938]

That goes against New Testament Scripture also.

Apostle Paul taught that we put on a "spiritual body", not another flesh body.

The spiritual body is a flesh body, like Christ's resurrected body.

Not only that, but Apostle Paul was emphatic that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

That's a reference to our current human bodies. The flesh of the new glorified body can and will inherit the kingdom.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.