Sorry, you do not get to call questions seeking clarity on basic issues like whether people are actually people on earth or not. Your replies were of less merit than those claiming an alien invasion, and zero bible support was offered.
When will God gather Israel?
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The Bible states at Rev 20:6 there is a first resurrection Davy, I simply reiterated it sir. And those that are not of that resurrection do not come to life until the end of the thousand years verse 5. I believe it sir, and you quoted a passage that even speaks about it. So my obvious question is why is it you do not?
Quite logically you are unaware of the meaning of Jn 10:16
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I think I made my point clear Taken. What you teach on this subject contradicts what Jesus accomplished sir. There is no redemption without his sacrifice. Am I going to believe you over Jesus?
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
In any event, how do you think you know what number they are (less than 144,000)? There are 3 stages to their resurrection Dad. The first resurrection of all the bride who died before it. Secondly those who die after the resurrection occurred 1 Cor 15:51,52 and those alive upon Jesus' return will die and meet the Lord in the air, what you call the rapture 1 Thes 4:17. Since the total of the bride is 144k, and logically most of them were resurrected in the first resurrection, then there will only be a few to be "raptured" when Jesus returns.
They do not come to life until the end of the millennial reign of Christ. At that point they are at the point Adam was prior to his sin
What point is that exactly? When all things has been subjected to him 1 Cor 15:24-26 You think there are people raised up who never heard the gospel? Yes sir Acts 24:15Were they saved or unsaved people, and how many? Salvation is the granting of everlasting life Dad, which as we are discussing is at the end of the thousand years, therefore none of them were "saved" prior to their resurrection, with the exception of those of the first resurrection of course.
, but like Adam they too must face the test of satan, as he will be released for a short time, then permanently destroyed along with all those he can take with him. That is why we do not come to life until the end of that millennium. Does any of that make sense to you sir?
No. Not really. Firstly it should be clear who are raised in the first resurrection. One way is to determine who is NOT raised. The Bride/church is not raised at that time after the 1000 years. We were raptured long before that. I don't think it would be the saved Jews, as they were alive when they were saved when He returned. So who exactly do you think they are, and why claim they are so few in number? Yes sir we agree, the bride is resurrected way before the end of the 1k yrs. We have already discussed who the bride is sir and disagreed, no point in continuing on that topic.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You failed to address the following which directly relates to the resurrection in Revelation 20...
Do either of you really think you can get around what Jesus said about BOTH resurrection types happening on the day of His future coming?
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
No problem for you to disagree, However what you claim to disagree with me about...only shows up in your own words.
I have never said such a thing.
The total number of the bride is unknown. Nowhere does the bible say that the witnesses in the tribulation are either the bride, or the number of the bride. That sounds like some Jehovah Witness nonsense.
So now you try to say that the tribulation witnesses are not only the bride, but that they were in the rapture.
I assume you are still talking about the witnesses. If so that is patently ridiculous to claim they all die and miss the 1000 years.
Not sure what you think that word salad is supposed to mean, but you showed how you were totally lost in confusion regarding the bible already, so apparently you are just pilling more fantasy upon your foundation of confused error.
More foggy nonsense
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
What do you THINK THAT JOHN 5:28-29 SCRIPTURE IS? That is Lord Jesus speaking there!
It's simple, Jesus revealed BOTH resurrection types occur on the day of His 2nd coming.
That John 5:28-29 Scripture also reveals men's doctrine that the "dead" of Revelation 20:5 are NOT actually literally dead in graves, but SPIRITUALLY DEAD (unsaved), and aware during Christ's future 1,000 years reign.
Man's 'dead in the ground' theory is just a tradition from the Jews, not how it really is. Some Old Testament scriptures suggest it, but The New Testament clearly reveals we don't literally sleep in a grave in the ground when our flesh dies (2 Corinthians 5; "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3 & 4; Ecclesiastes 12:5-7; Matthew 10:28, etc.). Thus the idea of being 'asleep' is an euphemism, which that euphemism is a nicer way to say one died. Jesus showed our soul continues on, and likewise Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals our 'spirit' continues also, while our flesh goes back to the ground where it came from.
So the REAL YOU is NOT the flesh; the flesh is just a shell for your spirit with soul. When the flesh dies, the spirit with soul is separated from the flesh, and goes back to God as written in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7. It is the flesh only that sits decaying in the ground. And you will never need it again, for the world to come will not be a flesh world age like today.
This how it was at Jesus' resurrection, that He went and preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison", which were in the heavenly prison house, which had died in their sins prior to Christ's resurrection. Per the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy, Jesus would lead those out of that prison house that believed on Him. And thus Peter said in 1 Peter 4 that for this reason The Gospel was also preached to the 'dead', so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Exactly sir! He was sent to do it, they were not already redeemed. Glad you caught the point!
Actually Davy that is referring to the second resurrection more. Clearly since they are worded that way, a period of time will elapse. Most likely the resurrection will take place in an organized way, I am quite sure that not everyone will be resurrected at once. I am led to believe this from Jesus' words of the last being first. Why might this be the case? Many changes took place that they will need to learn about as we go back in history.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Read it for yourself sir, your words: The 144,000 are not part of the “FIRST, LAST Resurrection”. They were already “redeemed”. From Ancient days.
No person is redeemed prior to Jesus' death Taken, everyone who is granted everlasting life received it through Jesus' sacrifice.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The born again 144k bride of Christ that was redeemed from the earth to be Kings and Priests in the Kingdom, those of the first resurrection are given eternal life upon their resurrection, in fact they are immortal, not subject to the second death. The rest of us who are resurrected on earth, the other sheep not of that fold will not receive everlasting life until the end of the millennial reign of Christ. At that point we will be the equivalent of Adam, and satan will be released for a brief time and we will be tested similarly to Adam. Make sense?
From beginning of Mortal mankind, Continuing NOW;
* SOME, Mortal men HAVE experienced Mortal (Bodily) Death...their living soul departed out from their dying Body, having Died....
And THEN.... their living soul Return to their BODY, and their Mortal Body, RESUME living their Moral Life, until again their BODY dies, and their Living soul departs their body.
* SOME, Mortal men HAVE experienced their Mortal (Bodily) Death...
Their...departed living soul; SAVED...With God
And others;
Their...departed living soul; UNSAVED...Without God.
* SOME, Mortal men HAVE experienced their Mortal (Bodily) Death...
Their...departed living soul; Restored and SAVED...
Their...spirit born again; QUICKENED...
Their...Mortally Dead Body “ALREADY REDEEMED”; Raised: IN GLORY...
Their...Saved Restored soul returned to their Body;
Their...Quickened spirit returned to their Body;
Their...Body, soul, spirit...”KEPT” by the Spirit of God...IN A PLACE SCRIPTURE “IS SILENT” IN REVEALING “WHERE”...
**...WHILE Scripture “IS SILENT”, “THOSE REDEEMED unto God”, WHERE” they “ARE”...
**...Scripture DOES REVEAL, they ARE “sent and present” ON Earth, During Gods Tribulation sent down from Heaven, BY God.
**...Specifically TWO, ARE present IN Jerusalem, ON Earth, for a specific duration of Time, during Gods Tribulation upon the Earth.
**...Specifically 144,000, ARE present ON Mt Sion, ON Earth, for a specific duration of Time, during Gods Tribulation upon the Earth.
* SOME, Mortal men HAVE, MAY, SHALL:
experience Spiritual Bodily Death, or
Mortal Bodily Death;
Receive Forgiveness of having HAD disbelief IN God, IN Christ Jesus;
Receive Salvation of their soul;
Receive Quickening of their spirit;
AND “SHALL BE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH”...NOT be present ON Earth, suffering Gods Tribulations sent down from Heaven.
There is one resurrection called: The First Resurrection, which expressly refers TO: the raising of ALL “SAVED” Dead Bodies, from beginning of MORTAL mankind to the end of MORTAL mankind that have NOT already Been Raised.
There is on resurrection called: The Second Resurrection, which expressly refers TO: the raising of ALL “Un-SAVED” Dead Bodies, from beginning of MORTAL mankind to the end of MORTAL mankind that were NOT Saved and SHALL NOT be SAVED.
Gods Authority and Power TO Take (REDEEM) what IS HIS, is not subject to mans WILL. Man can NOT “WILL” himself to live or die.
Man has freewill to CHOOSE what shall become of his body, his soul, his spirit, BEFORE some unknown time “the man’s BDOY die”.
* All body’s, All soul’s All spirit’s, BELONG TO GOD. Gods Authority and Power SHALL Take REDEEM (TAKE) any body, any soul, any spirit.....
AND
REDEEM (TAKE) and KEEP them WITH HIMSELF FOREVER......
OR
REDEEM (TAKE) and SEPARATE them WITHOUT HIMSELF FOREVER...
If a man Desires for God to Redeem (take) the mans WHOLE, body, soul, spirit....By God, With God Forever...the knowledge for Gods Order and Way, has been orally taught and written for hundreds of years...
That all men with an ounce of mental fitness are without EXCUSE to not know, and hope to be excused.
God IS NOT ignorant...or Lacking in Grace...or Lacking in what is Just or Righteous. (Unlearned babies, little children, mentally impaired);
God created them, God Knows their Heart. Not our requirement to second guess God and Ask for Gods consideration For THEM, on the day they physically die. Trust God has it handled.
Men SAW that which has ALREADY occurred.
Men SAW the Word of God, (The Lamb of God), in the Likeness AS a man....Hung on a tree.
You were supposed to have “KNOWN”, what was revealed in Scripture...
The Word of God, (The Lamb of God)....BEFORE He was revealed to men (in the Likeness as a man)......WAS KILLED, MURDERED...
WHILE the foundation of the Earth was Being Established...
BEFORE Mankind was created!
Rev 13:
[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Absolutely YES, the Lord God Almighty...could, did, Save men BEFORE the Word of God (the Lamb of God) was revealed ON Earth, in the likeness as a man.
Glory to God,
Taken
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The dead are dead Taken. Nothing lives on sir. Although the Bible don't speak much about the condition of the dead, it does tell us point blank what happens:
(Psalm 146:3, 4) . . .Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5-10) . . .For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.
It is quite clear, and it can be comforting to us as no one is suffering in the grave. Because they have no knowledge, their resurrection into a much better world will seem like it happened in an instant of time. How we look forward to the resurrection that will bring our dead loved ones back to us.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
We have came to an impasse sir, if you don't believe it you don't. I seriously doubt that God would have put Jesus through what He did, if it had no significance in salvation.
Disagree.
Body’s become physically dead and buried.
All Living souls (saved or not), depart the dead body.
Quickened Living spirits depart the dead body.
True. Physically dead body’s, know nothing, suffer nothing.
However there ARE many departed unsaved living souls suffering separations from God, in hell.
Many individuals “loved ones”, shall not be gathered together. They shall be damned and forgotten.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, the John 5:28-29 Scripture is not referring to a second resurrection. Your thinking with your flesh, and not with your spiritual mind. How and why is that? Simple...
1. Firstly, you have NOT understood Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 about what happens on the day of Christ's future coming with the 'change' on the "last trump". Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about 'death swallowed up in victory', and in Isaiah is revealed that all... peoples will be 'changed' on that day, the veil of this world being cast off. Just what do you think that 'veil' of this world might be? See, you don't understand.
2. Secondly, IF... you understood no.1, then you would realize the body type of the world to come when Jesus returns is NO MORE a flesh type body, but a "spiritual body".
3. Thirdly, you would HAVE TO BELIEVE what Apostle Paul actually taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection, and what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 with the wicked dead being resurrected on the day of Christ's coming also.
Thus you are not prepared to understand about the second resurrection, which will be another resurrection unto Christ like the "first resurrection", and ONLY will occur after the "thousand years".
Davy
Well-Known Member
Lot of that of course is not written in God's Word, but by man.
The 144,000 of Revelation 7 simply represent Christ's elect from among the SEED of Israel. But the "great multitude" starting at verse 9 represent Christ's elect priests and kings of the Gentiles. And I'm not pushing a false pre-trib rapture theory with that either.
Just as it is sometimes written in the Old Testament Books of God's prophets when describing the saved, both the seed of Israel and Gentiles are declared separately, like is done in that Revelation 7 Chapter. Notice that "great multitude" is ALSO standing before the Throne and before The Lamb...
Rev 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV
Also notice that the 144,000 stand upon Mount Zion with Jesus in that future time. Mount Zion will be ON THE EARTH then. It is not referring to a 'spiritualized' Zion. It will be the literal Zion.
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