Am I right that the holiday Christmas was originally intended for Christians and that it's correctly defined for Christ's birth since it's called Christ-mas? Then AFTER it turned to having a pagan holiday? Thanks everyone!
Where did the holiday Christmas come from?
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I think it was the other way round …..If you look into the early church there is no reference to celebrating the Lords birth, in fact no one knows the exact date of his birth. I believe that it started to be a tradition In the 3rd - 9th centuries. Originally Dec 25th was a pagan celebration of the winter solstice …….different traditions were added over the years.
There are so many different opinions on everything to do with Christmas, if you do a Google search you will find many different dates and reasons with regards to how different things started.
I have always found it strange that the Magi are placed in the nativity and the gift giving is often associated with his birth and Christmas. Yet I am pretty sure the magi did not arrive when he was a baby, but afterwards. ( but that is equally debated )
Rita
There are so many different opinions on everything to do with Christmas, if you do a Google search you will find many different dates and reasons with regards to how different things started.
I have always found it strange that the Magi are placed in the nativity and the gift giving is often associated with his birth and Christmas. Yet I am pretty sure the magi did not arrive when he was a baby, but afterwards. ( but that is equally debated )
Rita
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that's true even scripture doesn't mention the date of Jesus birth, but Matthew & Luke have a few chapters on the events of Jesus Birth
how come it's such a coincidence that the pagans would celebrate Christmas and how come it's so coincidental that Christmas has the word Christ in it and that the pagans would celebrate it in that name, does anyone on this forum know if Christmas was first made from pagans or Christians? Thank you
how come this thread got such few replies? it's ok if the people on this forum just don't know though. 
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Decorating trees have been around since the Tower of Babel. It influenced Israel to make the tree an Idol. Jeremiah spoke out against Israel's idol worship.
Jeremiah 10:3-5 -
For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
Jeremiah 10:3-5 -
For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I have nowhere in scripture that it tells humans to observe a birthday celebration of Jesus. In doing research I've found that Jews didn't observe birthdays. In scripture there are two times birthday celebration are mentioned concerning pagans, but none of Jews observing a birthday celebration. Since in scripture it doesn't tell us to observe any birthday celebration I see no reason for anyone to say Christians are obligated to observe any birthday celebration.
The true God is about truth and it isn't true that Jesus was born on December 25th. Also all the the things that are associated with Christmas are from pagan gods. This includes the Christmas tree. Ask yourself why would a tree be associated with Jesus Christ birth. Why would Santa Claus which if you do research on Santa Claus he's about magic and wizardry? Why would magic and wizardry be associated with Christmas if it's about Jesus Christ, Jesus had nothing to do with magic or wizardry.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
It was Matthew and Luke who wrote about the circumstances around the birth of Jesus. Since the birth of Jesus Christ was cemented into the Canon of the bible. Of course, Christians wanted to celebrate the birth of their Savior. But didn't have a date; apparently Luke didn't ask that question of Mary. The Catholic Church obliged, and so the celebration began. Then the presents, and decorations came later.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
FYI: Late December to Early January is the rainy season in Israel, when the hills are lush with green grass and it would be practical for Multiple Shepherds and Multiple Flocks to gather together and remain in one place (as opposed to the arid season when a single shepherd and a single flock would need to keep moving to avoid overgrazing and to find more forage.)
Not insignificantly, it is also about the time that shepherds would move flocks closer to Jerusalem so the young lambs could be regularly inspected by Priests in preparation for becoming Passover Lambs (check out the Old Testament regulations for the Passover Lamb and then read the rules added by Rabbinical Traditions). The hills near Bethlehem are an excellent strategic location to keep a flock of sheep in preparation for Passover (even today).
December 25 may not or may not be the exact date, but it is certainly within a stone's throw of the right date.
[PS: Winter Solstice is on December 21 or 22 ... even the Ancient People knew that, so let's just throw that old wives tale out with the trash.]
Not insignificantly, it is also about the time that shepherds would move flocks closer to Jerusalem so the young lambs could be regularly inspected by Priests in preparation for becoming Passover Lambs (check out the Old Testament regulations for the Passover Lamb and then read the rules added by Rabbinical Traditions). The hills near Bethlehem are an excellent strategic location to keep a flock of sheep in preparation for Passover (even today).
December 25 may not or may not be the exact date, but it is certainly within a stone's throw of the right date.
[PS: Winter Solstice is on December 21 or 22 ... even the Ancient People knew that, so let's just throw that old wives tale out with the trash.]
So Christmas was first celebrated by Christians? I just don't understand why it would coincidentally have the word 'Christ' in it if it were celebrated by pagans first. Thanks
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You are speaking of the English word, so a good Dictionary can help with the origin of the word:
Christmas, from Middle English (AD 1150-1480) Christemasse, from Old English (AD 450-1150) Cristes mæsse (literally, Christ's mass).
So Rita is wrong and Christians celebrated Christmas first?
ScottA
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As the story goes, just as is also the case with Easter, the early church fathers being faced with many wanting to continue celebrating their old pagan holidays after beginning to believe in and follow Christ--because Christ had overcome the world, they took them over and declared them to be celebrations of Christ's birth and resurrection. Which may very well save them for having also believed and preached many false teachings.
Unfortunately, that did not do the same with Halloween (when thye should have and could have). If the church fathers today were smart they would now claim Halloween and change the meaning from evil to good--that they too might be saved.
Sorry, how come it's such a coincidence that pagans would celebrate something called "Christmas" with the name "Christ" in it, or was it named something else? Thanks ScottA or anyone who knows.
ScottA
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They didn't. You have it backwards.
The pagans celebrated their own holiday and had their own name for it. Then the early church fathers took it over and called it Christmas.
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And how come the pagans celebrated this holiday later called "Christmas" exactly around or on the date of Christ's birth? Thanks!
Chrysostom
Because of this one would not be far wrong in saying that it is both new and old: new because it has only recently been made known to you, old and venerable because it has swiftly become similar in stature to days long recognised and it feels as though it is of similar age to them. It is as with carefully bred and cultivated plants (the ones that reach an impressive height almost as soon as they are placed in the earth, and are laden with fruit). This day was known from the beginning to those in the West: now it has been brought to us and before the passing of many years, has swiftly shot up, bearing such fruit as you now see – the precincts full and the church packed with the crowd who have gathered together. Expect a repayment worthy of such zeal from Christ who is born today in the flesh. He will reward you for this enthusiasm. Your heartfelt zeal for this day is a great sign of your love for the one who is born. If it is necessary for anything to be contributed by us, your fellow servants, then, as we are able, we will contribute it; or rather whatever words the grace of God gives me to build you up. What do you wish to hear today? You want, of course, to hear about this day. I well know that many are still debating with each other about it, some arguing against, some for. Everywhere there is a lot of conversation about this day, some saying accusingly that the day is a new innovation which has only recently been introduced, while others contend that it is ancient and venerable, that the prophets spoke in advance about his birth and that from the beginning it was plain and clear to those living from Thrace to Cadiz. So come then and let us begin to give an account of these things. At the moment a day which is debated among you enjoys significant goodwill. If it became more familiar to you it is obvious that it would enjoy even greater zeal. Clarity of teaching will consolidate its position among you.
I have three convincing arguments to share with you through which we will know for sure that this is the time at which our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Word, was born. Of the three the first is that the news about the feast was swiftly circulated everywhere; it increased in prominence and the feast flourished. Gamaliel said of the proclamation of the Gospel – if it is from men and women it will come to an end, but if it is from God you will not be able to bring it to an end lest you are found to be fighting against God. I would confidently say of this day that, since God the Word is of God, far from it coming to an end, it is increasing in prominence each year and becoming better and better known. Within a few years the preaching of the Gospel had taken hold of the entire world even though it was shared in each place by ordinary people of little education like tentmakers and fishermen. The modest circumstances of its servants did it no harm, but the power of the message won over everything, brought to nothing whatever got in the way and demonstrated a strength of its own.
earlychurchtexts.com
Because of this one would not be far wrong in saying that it is both new and old: new because it has only recently been made known to you, old and venerable because it has swiftly become similar in stature to days long recognised and it feels as though it is of similar age to them. It is as with carefully bred and cultivated plants (the ones that reach an impressive height almost as soon as they are placed in the earth, and are laden with fruit). This day was known from the beginning to those in the West: now it has been brought to us and before the passing of many years, has swiftly shot up, bearing such fruit as you now see – the precincts full and the church packed with the crowd who have gathered together. Expect a repayment worthy of such zeal from Christ who is born today in the flesh. He will reward you for this enthusiasm. Your heartfelt zeal for this day is a great sign of your love for the one who is born. If it is necessary for anything to be contributed by us, your fellow servants, then, as we are able, we will contribute it; or rather whatever words the grace of God gives me to build you up. What do you wish to hear today? You want, of course, to hear about this day. I well know that many are still debating with each other about it, some arguing against, some for. Everywhere there is a lot of conversation about this day, some saying accusingly that the day is a new innovation which has only recently been introduced, while others contend that it is ancient and venerable, that the prophets spoke in advance about his birth and that from the beginning it was plain and clear to those living from Thrace to Cadiz. So come then and let us begin to give an account of these things. At the moment a day which is debated among you enjoys significant goodwill. If it became more familiar to you it is obvious that it would enjoy even greater zeal. Clarity of teaching will consolidate its position among you.
I have three convincing arguments to share with you through which we will know for sure that this is the time at which our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Word, was born. Of the three the first is that the news about the feast was swiftly circulated everywhere; it increased in prominence and the feast flourished. Gamaliel said of the proclamation of the Gospel – if it is from men and women it will come to an end, but if it is from God you will not be able to bring it to an end lest you are found to be fighting against God. I would confidently say of this day that, since God the Word is of God, far from it coming to an end, it is increasing in prominence each year and becoming better and better known. Within a few years the preaching of the Gospel had taken hold of the entire world even though it was shared in each place by ordinary people of little education like tentmakers and fishermen. The modest circumstances of its servants did it no harm, but the power of the message won over everything, brought to nothing whatever got in the way and demonstrated a strength of its own.
John Chrysostom - Homily on the Date of Christmas
John Chrysostom, Homilia in diem natalem Domini Nostri Jesu Christ, Homily on the date of Christmas, Homily for Christmas Day, Greek and Latin resources with English translations for the study of Early Church History
earlychurchtexts.com
The Early Church Texts Website
Extensive resources for the study of Early Christianity
ScottA
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Men are not in control of the timing of world events, but rather God is, as He works all things together for good for those who love Him according to His purpose. Thus, the early church fathers must have just found the pagan holiday a convenient holiday to take over for the celebration of Christ's birthday.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not completely.
Like so much in life, there are no simple answers, so the "facts" will prove whatever goal you set out to prove.
Let's start with Scripture:
- In the OT, there are no records of any celebrations of the anniversary of anyone's birth. "Birthdays" are a concept alien to the Jewish culture. It is, therefore, not surprising that the gospels do not make a big deal about the EXACT DATE of Jesus' birth or mention any celebration of its anniversary. The Book of Acts records no celebration of anyone's Birthday (including Jesus') and the Letters make no mention of it.
- So from Scripture, we learn that it was unlikely that Jesus ever celebrated his Birthday growing up. It is not "impossible", it is just unlikely. It is also unlikely that anyone celebrated Jesus' Birthday for the first Century of the church (when the Bible Letters were being written).
- Pagan (gentile) cultures did record the date of a person's birth and celebrate its anniversary.
- Any "tradition" of celebrating the birth of Jesus would have come from the Gentiles and their traditions rather than the Jewish Traditions in the early church.
- Festivals and Holidays: The Romans incorporated all of the gods of all of the people that they conquered. The Romans also loved to keep records of things and to celebrate holidays. The Romans compiled a list of all of the festivals and holidays of all of the gods of all of the "peoples" within the empire. The result was a list in which there was SOME holiday on nearly EVERY day of the year. So any day that Christians chose to honor would likely fall on and near multiple pagan festivals.
- In the Third Century (200's), there were discussions on the exact date of Jesus' Birth and disagreement among important Church leaders on whether to celebrate it or not. Some felt that it was utterly PAGAN to celebrate any birthdays (including Jesus'). Others felt that the Virgin Birth was so important that it demanded being remembered and celebrated.
- Egypt had long been a place where Birthdays were important and was an important Jewish and Christian center of learning (remember the Septuagint and the Ethiopian Eunuch). In Egypt, the Birth of Christ was celebrated from very early on.
- Those places and churches that celebrated the birth of Christ did so with a Church Service - a Christ Mass. The trappings of the "private holiday" celebrated at home with friends and family all came later, growing from both adopted local holiday festival customs [remember the Roman Calendar of Holidays] and from new local customs introduced by local churches during the Reformation.
Yes.
It all depends on how one chooses to string together the facts.
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