Where do aborted babies go?

[Heyzeus]

The video displays the ignorance of the pro-choice POV. Babies are still being murdered there.

That is a ridiculously "insert word you used" generalization - pardon my french. You are lumping all pro choice into the same basket.

The anti choice folks in that video were completely ignorant of the main arguments. The claim that a single human cell is defacto "a baby" is patent nonsense.

 

[Taken]

Where do you think aborted babies go?

1. Heaven
2. Hell
3. Other
4. Don't know

5. Depends- on if they Received Gods Breath of Life, and was made a Living soul.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Cooper]

Still born babies go into the incinerator along with the other medical waste, but fire cannot harm the soul, or why would those in hell cry out in anguish, so as they are innocent of any wrong doing in thought or deed, I would expect to see them in the arms of Jesus.
.

 

[marksman]

God commands abortion in certain circumstances - such as when the husband of his pregnant wife suspects adultery. Numbers 5.

More like an induced miscarriage.

 

[Heyzeus]

More like an induced miscarriage.

Same thing.. The woman is given a potion to induce a miscarriage rather than using a coat hanger.. an abortion by either method.

 

[Marymog]

It's not a theory, it's about what the scriptures say.

I love the book of Acts. My favorite verse is:
Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Ok.....thank you. That is a lovely verse but has nothing to do with baptism.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The claim that a single human cell is defacto "a baby" is patent nonsense.

When the sperm enters the egg it becomes a living cell and is seen by God to be a baby. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and not knowing that is just ignorant, and without excuse.

Any non-Christian not knowing that has an excuse, but are still ignorant.

 

[Giuliano]

Great verses. Your point regarding 'the wicked' is well taken, except for one thing. It proves my point regarding the doctrine of election.

I don't think we disagreed that some people are born elect and others aren't.

What it shows, I think, is that not every child is born wicked.

Did you notice that the verses in Isaiah don't mention Esau? Romans 9 clears that right up. It's about corporate and individual election. Corporate Election (Dan Wallace) - Credo House Ministries

On to Psalm 22, proves my point again. The Apostle Paul says the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world and that they were predestined.

Jesus Himself discriminates between those the Father draws and those He does not.

Your take on foreknowledge is instructive, but it's a conclusion, not a biblical usage.

The Greek work G4267

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to have knowledge before hand
2. to foreknow
   1. of those whom God elected to salvation
3. to predestinate

And then there is Roman 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

It's a blessing to have relevant dialogue. Thanks so much.

God Bless.

I think I gave Scripture that shows God has a relationship with some children before they're born -- even before they are conceived. He has plans for them too. Their lives are planned in advance. That is the real meaning of the word "predestinate." They have missions; and those missions are often to the non-elect, to help bring them to salvation.

That being said, we see how the king Cyrus was predicted ahead of time. His name was known and what role he would play was known. When Heaven plans such things, there is almost no chance of something going wrong. A woman is picked who God knows will not abort the baby.

 

[Heyzeus]

When the sperm enters the egg it becomes a living cell and is seen by God to be a baby. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and not knowing that is just ignorant, and without excuse.

Any non-Christian not knowing that has an excuse, but are still ignorant.

Holy Moly this is just patent nonsense

Did God sit down for tea with you the other day and relate this information to you ? - cause it sure as heck does not say that "OR" infer that in any way -

And just to be clear "I knew you in the womb" is laughable nonsense for ignorant folks so please do not try that one .

What we do find in the Bible - is disregard for the fetus - and recomendation for abortion - and abortion via homicide of pregnant women .. and so on.

Not a word about this single human cell at conception being seen by God as a Baby .. this is simply false.

 

[Heyzeus]

I don't think we disagreed that some people are born elect and others aren't.

What it shows, I think, is that not every child is born wicked.

I think I gave Scripture that shows God has a relationship with some children before they're born -- even before they are conceived. He has plans for them too. Their lives are planned in advance. That is the real meaning of the word "predestinate." They have missions; and those missions are often to the non-elect, to help bring them to salvation.

That being said, we see how the king Cyrus was predicted ahead of time. His name was known and what role he would play was known. When Heaven plans such things, there is almost no chance of something going wrong. A woman is picked who God knows will not abort the baby.

God has a relationship with some children before they are born .. how about all children. What does bearing does this have on abortion ? ZERO

If God has a Plan - rest assured - he will figure it out. If the first attempt didn't work - he will get that soul into another sack of flesh.

Speaking of Which . so when exactly does the soul alight ? and where did it come from prior to entering the fleshy home ?

Suppose we go to heaven after death - after a few thousand years - its time for a vacation - you can to live another life somewhere in the universe ... thing is - during that life you will not remember your past lives.

did you wish me to cry over some ruined vacation plans ? or shall we say "Potentially Ruined vacation plans .. as we don't really now when the soul alights now do we .. and surely the Pope is no Help .. about as inspiring as when the Pope declared Cats to be heretics - and Cats were subsequently tortured in merciless ways.


So when was it exactly that the soul alights ... if you stop the process before the soul alights... you have not ruined anyone's vacation as it the soul was not there yet. If it has hit - not to good

In any case - from both a scientific and religious perspective - the most likely time for the soul to alite is when cognition is achieved - measured as significant brain function .. round 21-23 weeks when the wiring gets complete - and the brain lights up like a Christmas tree.

Only then can we begin to have a rational conversation about whether or not "A BABY" exists.

 

[Giuliano]

Holy Moly this is just patent nonsense

Did God sit down for tea with you the other day and relate this information to you ? - cause it sure as heck does not say that "OR" infer that in any way -

And just to be clear "I knew you in the womb" is laughable nonsense for ignorant folks so please do not try that one .

What we do find in the Bible - is disregard for the fetus - and recomendation for abortion - and abortion via homicide of pregnant women .. and so on.

Not a word about this single human cell at conception being seen by God as a Baby .. this is simply false.

I said only the elect are known by God in the womb. Think about Isaac. God planned for him to be born -- Isaac was elect. God knew who his parents would be. Think also of John the Baptist. His father was told about it before he was conceived.

That does not mean however that the spirit enters the fertilized egg. That could happen much later; but if God wants one of His elect born, the mother won't abort -- so it doesn't matter when the spirit enters the body.

Me? I can remember being born. I didn't think I was inventing memories; but I was born at home and my older sister was there so I asked her about things to see if my memories were accurate. They were. I can also remember looking at my "future" mother when she was pregnant -- because I wasn't in that body yet. I know that probably sounds so incredible you won't be able to believe it, but then you don't have my memories.

You might be amazed at what can be known. I knew my niece was pregnant before anyone told me. I also knew she'd have a daughter. It was strange because she wasn't married when she got pregnant. I also "knew" something about that girl.

The elect have their lives planned. It's the non-elect we need to worry about. I could not tell you when their spirits enter a fetus -- or if they had.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

I don't think we disagreed that some people are born elect and others aren't.

What it shows, I think, is that not every child is born wicked.

I think I gave Scripture that shows God has a relationship with some children before they're born -- even before they are conceived. He has plans for them too. Their lives are planned in advance. That is the real meaning of the word "predestinate." They have missions; and those missions are often to the non-elect, to help bring them to salvation.

That being said, we see how the king Cyrus was predicted ahead of time. His name was known and what role he would play was known. When Heaven plans such things, there is almost no chance of something going wrong. A woman is picked who God knows will not abort the baby.

You do have some good points. The Bible shows how prophecy is fulfilled. Every Christian should acknowledge it.

I counsel women who have had abortions and their guilt consumes them. So, elect women can still sin, and they do sin. The doctrine of election doesn't mean that people won't sin.

 

[Giuliano]

God has a relationship with some children before they are born .. how about all children. What does bearing does this have on abortion ? ZERO

Actually, it has a lot to do with it. I gave you examples about the elect. You ignored that.

God wants relationships with everyone. It's the job of the elect to help bring the non-elect into a relationship with God. God is not willing that any should perish. The non-elect are born with the potential to come to know God. Abortion prevents that.

If God has a Plan - rest assured - he will figure it out. If the first attempt didn't work - he will get that soul into another sack of flesh.

Uh, God's plans have a time schedule. He needs His servants to be in certain situations at a given time. It would not been pleasant if Elizabeth had aborted John the Baptist. It would have slowed down the schedule of events.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Holy Moly this is just patent nonsense

Did God sit down for tea with you the other day and relate this information to you ? - cause it sure as heck does not say that "OR" infer that in any way -

And just to be clear "I knew you in the womb" is laughable nonsense for ignorant folks so please do not try that one .

What we do find in the Bible - is disregard for the fetus - and recomendation for abortion - and abortion via homicide of pregnant women .. and so on.

Not a word about this single human cell at conception being seen by God as a Baby .. this is simply false.

This is a Christian forum, correct? Is it acceptable to you that one could call what the Bible says is "laughable". It's not for me.

Psalm 139:1-18

O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.

Your arguments here are destroyed by logic.

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.

E – Environment. A journey through a birth canal cannot account for a change in a child’s rights. Location does not affect personhood. A child in the womb or outside the womb is still a human being.

D – Degree of Dependency. The unborn fetus is totally dependent on the mother for life through the umbilical cord, but newborn babies are also fully dependent. A baby left to herself will die within hours unless she is attended to and her needs met. In fact, everyone relies on other people and things to some degree. We don’t question the personhood of those who are dependent on kidney machines, insulin, or pacemakers. Elderly people in a nursing home who have to be fed are no less valuable than the person who is feeding them.[4]

 

[Heyzeus]

I said only the elect are known by God in the womb. Think about Isaac. God planned for him to be born -- Isaac was elect. God knew who his parents would be. Think also of John the Baptist. His father was told about it before he was conceived.

That does not mean however that the spirit enters the fertilized egg. That could happen much later; but if God wants one of His elect born, the mother won't abort -- so it doesn't matter when the spirit enters the body.

Me? I can remember being born. I didn't think I was inventing memories; but I was born at home and my older sister was there so I asked her about things to see if my memories were accurate. They were. I can also remember looking at my "future" mother when she was pregnant -- because I wasn't in that body yet. I know that probably sounds so incredible you won't be able to believe it, but then you don't have my memories.

You might be amazed at what can be known. I knew my niece was pregnant before anyone told me. I also knew she'd have a daughter. It was strange because she wasn't married when she got pregnant. I also "knew" something about that girl.

The elect have their lives planned. It's the non-elect we need to worry about. I could not tell you when their spirits enter a fetus -- or if they had.

Did you not read my story - and how are elects - and everyone else for that matter . not factored into my story ?
Go back - read - and get back to me - nothing I have said disagree's with anything you have just posted - and in fact -- it explains what you are saying- not just religiously - but scientifically ..

So happy day but now down the dark path that you may just want to avoid ... what happens after death ? are "Vacations" allowed ?

 

[Heyzeus]

This is a Christian forum, correct? Is it acceptable to you that one could call what the Bible says is "laughable". It's not for me.

Psalm 139:1-18

O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.

Your arguments here are destroyed by logic.

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.

E – Environment. A journey through a birth canal cannot account for a change in a child’s rights. Location does not affect personhood. A child in the womb or outside the womb is still a human being.

D – Degree of Dependency. The unborn fetus is totally dependent on the mother for life through the umbilical cord, but newborn babies are also fully dependent. A baby left to herself will die within hours unless she is attended to and her needs met. In fact, everyone relies on other people and things to some degree. We don’t question the personhood of those who are dependent on kidney machines, insulin, or pacemakers. Elderly people in a nursing home who have to be fed are no less valuable than the person who is feeding them.[4]

well thank you - but - none of what you just posted conflicts with anything in my post. - unfortunately - your post does not address the major points in my post - and major gaps in your story.

1) when does the soul land ? lets start with that one - include where it came from - as I did - and where it will go - should the process fail as I did.

the floor is yours. will deal with "Personhood" - also explained in my post - in specific detail with both scientific and religious rational given - and again none of the major points were addressed by you - once we are finished with 1) - and good luck with that one .. once you have lost Debate 1.

 

[Giuliano]

Did you not read my story - and how are elects - and everyone else for that matter . not factored into my story ?
Go back - read - and get back to me - nothing I have said disagree's with anything you have just posted - and in fact -- it explains what you are saying- not just religiously - but scientifically ..

So happy day but now down the dark path that you may just want to avoid ... what happens after death ? are "Vacations" allowed ?

I absolutely believe vacations are allowed. I believe in reincarnation myself and can remember several lives. There are ideal times for some souls to be born. If the world lacks the conditions you might need to learn a lesson, what's the point of being born then? Such souls are seldom in Heaven however -- they have not yet attained perfection, so they are often in Paradise. Sometimes too, we are meant to meet certain other people so we can work out mutual problems.

The problem I see with abortions is that often the people who choose to have abortions find themselves being directed into bodies where the mothers might abort them.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The process will not go on indefinitely. I think there are some people who opted for abortions so many times that they themselves may not be permitted to be born again in human bodies. . . at least not in the current era.

 

[Heart2Soul]

This is a Christian forum, correct? Is it acceptable to you that one could call what the Bible says is "laughable". It's not for me.

Psalm 139:1-18

O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.

Your arguments here are destroyed by logic.

S – Size. The unborn fetus is smaller than an infant and most people are shorter than 7-foot basketball star Rudy Gobert. However, rational people would not claim that the infant is more valuable than the fetus nor is Rudy worth more than a teenage girl. In addition, a sumo wrestler does not have more value than a trapeze artist. Therefore, size does not indicate one’s worth.

L – Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.

E – Environment. A journey through a birth canal cannot account for a change in a child’s rights. Location does not affect personhood. A child in the womb or outside the womb is still a human being.

D – Degree of Dependency. The unborn fetus is totally dependent on the mother for life through the umbilical cord, but newborn babies are also fully dependent. A baby left to herself will die within hours unless she is attended to and her needs met. In fact, everyone relies on other people and things to some degree. We don’t question the personhood of those who are dependent on kidney machines, insulin, or pacemakers. Elderly people in a nursing home who have to be fed are no less valuable than the person who is feeding them.[4]

Excellent post!!! At around 6 weeks of pregnancy the embryo's heartbeat can be detected and it is beating twice as fast as the mother's....at 11 weeks of pregnancy the embryo is now a fetus....
Now answer this question....why is the heart already beating at 6 weeks? Think about what the purpose of the heart is in the human body...
it pumps....day in and day out until death. What is it pumping? Blood.
What does the blood contain....Oxygen, nutrients, various hormones.....and it also gets rid of used energy....CO2, waste products, dead cells.

So isn't the embryo alive since it must have a heart to pump the necessary oxygenated blood throughout the body? Oh and emphasis....OXYGENATED BLOOD....(breath)....the lungs are NOT the breath of life...it is the organ that exchanges O2 and CO2.....

 

[Heyzeus]

I absolutely believe vacations are allowed. I believe in reincarnation myself and can remember several lives. There are ideal times for some souls to be born. If the world lacks the conditions you might need to learn a lesson, what's the point of being born then? Such souls are seldom in Heaven however -- they have not yet attained perfection, so they are often in Paradise. Sometimes too, we are meant to meet certain other people so we can work out mutual problems.

The problem I see with abortions is that often the people who choose to have abortions find themselves being directed into bodies where the mothers might abort them.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The process will not go on indefinitely. I think there are some people who opted for abortions so many times that they themselves may not be permitted to be born again in human bodies. . . at least not in the current era.

Excellent - same page we are in many respects to Heaven - which takes us back to the question that you have not addressed.

When does the soul arrive ? This is critical - answer - "we don't know" .. best guess ? -- you got a better one than mine - good luck Sentience matters. its the point of birth - and the point of death ..

So if the cradle for the soul is under creation - and you are in heaven waiting to occupy that cradle .. knowing that you will not remember a thing when you get there .. or maybe you have glimers .. like you say - for a fortunate few who won that card in the big game .. perhaps if you are really bad you get a really crap posting in the next go round .. but at some point .. anything is better than sitting around chanting Hail Mary's all day long... cause we miss her in the Trinity... how did the females lose out in that racket btw ? sad thing really .. I liked the fertility rituals.

Speaking of which - do you think God does not tire of "Glory be to me" .. after the first trillion years of waking up every morning to "Glory be to You" ... by every soul he greets ... God probably takes vacations from time to time as well .. he has the worst position in the joint really .. ..

So when mission aborts prior to soul getting to the cradle .. no big deal .. its a few cells .. a process was under way .. but at the zygote .. not a single human cell of the structure of the Human in the blueprint - encoded in the DNA - has been created.

Get back to me when you can tell me how a baby exists - when not a single cell of that baby exists.

 

[Heyzeus]

Excellent post!!! At around 6 weeks of pregnancy the embryo's heartbeat can be detected and it is beating twice as fast as the mother's....at 11 weeks of pregnancy the embryo is now a fetus....
Now answer this question....why is the heart already beating at 6 weeks? Think about what the purpose of the heart is in the human body...
it pumps....day in and day out until death. What is it pumping? Blood.
What does the blood contain....Oxygen, nutrients, various hormones.....and it also gets rid of used energy....CO2, waste products, dead cells.

So isn't the embryo alive since it must have a heart to pump the necessary oxygenated blood throughout the body? Oh and emphasis....OXYGENATED BLOOD....(breath)....the lungs are NOT the breath of life...it is the organ that exchanges O2 and CO2.....

1) since when does the 6 week fetal heartbreat mean a that a living human exists - "defacto" You can claim this - and it is a whole lot better than the claim that the zygote is a human - but from a scientific perspective it is an uphill battle.

Define the characteristics required for a human to be said to exist - a Person - and then tell me why you think that was when the soul decided to occupy the fleshy cradle that it will hopefully occupy for many years to come.

My previous posts gives both a scientific and religious justification for my entry point - should be just above.

At what point would you choose - and why.