Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

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logabe

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The soul is the focal point of the problem of sin. The soul is the natural mind, or
carnal mind, which we received as part of our inheritance from Adam. It is thus
also the seat of death, or mortality.

There is no such thing as an immortal soul, at least not this side of the glory
that is to come. Such a term is never used in the Bible, but is a theological
and popular term borrowed from various religions.

Thus, Isaiah 53 makes it clear that the Messiah was to be a Sacrifice for sin and
is connected to the sacrificial animals in the law of Moses. The soul of the animal
was sacrificed for the souls of men, for Lev. 17:11 says, “I have given it [the blood]
to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls.

The Greeks thought that the seat of true virtue and knowledge rested in the soul
(what Paul called the carnal mind, or the “old man”). Paul says that the “natural
mind” (psuchikos, or “soulish” mind” cannot understand the things of the Spirit
(1 Cor. 2:14).

Insofar as immortality is concerned, the human spirit is the only seat of immortality,
for it is never said to die, but to “return to God” (Eccl. 12:7). So also when Jesus died,
He said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit” (Luke 23:46), and yet His soul
went to hades, for we read in Acts 2:27, Thou wilt not leave My soul in hades.

The spirit has a mind, just as the soul has a mind. They each have their own
consciousness, capable of thought.

Paul identified himself with that holy seed, that new man that He is becoming—not
the old man that is his Adamic flesh, which is very capable of sin. As believers, we
have the right to identify with the new man and crucify the old man. While this is not
a license to sin that grace may abound, it also provides us with the biblical reason
why we ought not to wallow in guilt from past sins, or even to remain paralyzed by
the current imperfection of the flesh.

This is basic to an understanding of our Christian walk, as well as giving us some
knowledge of the difference between soul and spirit. We can only make that
distinction by the Sword of the Word, for Heb. 4:12 says that this Sword is to be
used to divide soul and spirit, even as the priest used to cut apart the bone and
marrow of the sacrificial animals.

Logabe
 
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Insight

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The soul is the focal point of the problem of sin. The soul is the natural mind, or
carnal mind, which we received as part of our inheritance from Adam. It is thus
also the seat of death, or mortality.

There is no such thing as an immortal soul, at least not this side of the glory
that is to come. Such a term is never used in the Bible, but is a theological
and popular term borrowed from various religions.

Thus, Isaiah 53 makes it clear that the Messiah was to be a Sacrifice for sin and
is connected to the sacrificial animals in the law of Moses. The soul of the animal
was sacrificed for the souls of men, for Lev. 17:11 says, “I have given it [the blood]
to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls.

The Greeks thought that the seat of true virtue and knowledge rested in the soul
(what Paul called the carnal mind, or the “old man”). Paul says that the “natural
mind” (psuchikos, or “soulish” mind” cannot understand the things of the Spirit
(1 Cor. 2:14).

Insofar as immortality is concerned, the human spirit is the only seat of immortality,
for it is never said to die, but to “return to God” (Eccl. 12:7). So also when Jesus died,
He said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit” (Luke 23:46), and yet His soul
went to hades, for we read in Acts 2:27, Thou wilt not leave My soul in hades.

The spirit has a mind, just as the soul has a mind. They each have their own
consciousness, capable of thought.

Paul identified himself with that holy seed, that new man that He is becoming—not
the old man that is his Adamic flesh, which is very capable of sin. As believers, we
have the right to identify with the new man and crucify the old man. While this is not
a license to sin that grace may abound, it also provides us with the biblical reason
why we ought not to wallow in guilt from past sins, or even to remain paralyzed by
the current imperfection of the flesh.

This is basic to an understanding of our Christian walk, as well as giving us some
knowledge of the difference between soul and spirit. We can only make that
distinction by the Sword of the Word, for Heb. 4:12 says that this Sword is to be
used to divide soul and spirit, even as the priest used to cut apart the bone and
marrow of the sacrificial animals.

Logabe

Thank you Logabe,

A fellow Bible Student who understands the Holy Writ and is not afraid to speak truth.
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Insight

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Aug 7, 2011
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Insofar as immortality is concerned, the human spirit is the only seat of immortality,
for it is never said to die, but to “return to God” (Eccl. 12:7). So also when Jesus died,
He said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit” (Luke 23:46), and yet His soul
went to hades, for we read in Acts 2:27, Thou wilt not leave My soul in hades.

The spirit has a mind, just as the soul has a mind. They each have their own
consciousness, capable of thought.

Logabe

Are you able to expand on the above?

Particularly this comment: "Insofar as immortality is concerned, the human spirit is the only seat of immortality"

Thanks

Insight
 

veteran

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And of course it is closest to YOUR doctrine, even though it doesn't agree with your statement. So that's almost one translation out of 18 that almost agrees with you. That still leaves at least 17 that don't agree with you.

I've seen others completely rely on Young's scholarship, when there are many other Greek and Hebrew scholars that served Christ's Church.
 

veteran

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Jehovah's Witness?

It appears you may have pinned the tail on the donkey. But JW are not the only ones that don't recognize the existence of a heavenly abode called 'hell'. Many of today's Jews don't believe it either, but believe as Insight has already said, that flesh death is a state of nothingness.
 

veteran

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The part of our being that makes up our 'person', whether one chooses to call that 'soul', 'spirit', or whatever, retains its individuality when apart from the flesh body. Apostle Paul showed this with the one in 2 Corinthians 12 that was "caught up" to Paradise...

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(KJV)


The one Paul was speaking of was "in Christ" per his testimony. Why would Paul declare whether the man was "in the body" or "out of the body"? What's that about?

It's because Paul recognized that flesh death means something inside the flesh body being separated from it at flesh death per Eccl.12. This is why Paul preached in 2 Cor.5 that if our flesh body is dissolved, we have another house not made with hands (not flesh), but eternal in the heavens.

Moreover, the fact that the one Paul spoke of being "caught up" (harpazo) to God's Paradise, means a direct Heavenly experience by some 'conscious' part of his being. But what part? the soul part? the spirit part? Does it really matter what that part is called, as long as we recognize that one was literaly caught up to Paradise, and lived to tell about it later?

Just WHAT would we call such an experience like that today? We'd call it a 'near-death experience' today. There's been many cases of people literally being pronounced dead on the operating table yet somehow were revived, their living to tell of experiences not of this present world. I've personally heard two witnesses of people telling me what they experienced with an NDE.

A pastor just recently released a book called Heaven Is For Real about his son, how he'd almost lost his young son when he was four at the hospital, and his son later telling him things and experiences of the heavenly he could have never learned.
 

Insight

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Even apostate christian scholars today teach this event is Paul being given a vision and revelation as in Acts 18:9, which was a similar view into the Kingdom that Christ gave Peter, James and John at the transfiguration Mat 16:28.

And they would be right!

I cannot believe you are trying to force your doctrine of immortal souls onto this passage!

The three heavens have always been interpreted as being the three phases of Gods Kingdom on Earth.

(1) Mosaic Age Deut 32:1; Isa 1:2
(2) Millennium Age Isa 65:17,18
(3) All in all Age with no end 1 Cor 15:24,25,26,27,28.

Note how Paul being caught up – He viewed with his eyes and heard with his ears. This was like a dreamlike state caught away in God's power for purpose of revelation. A vision, a trance like Acts 10:10.

Again Veteran, you have no scriptures to prove your theory only supposition which seems to be consistant with your theology.

Insight
 

Insight

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It appears you may have pinned the tail on the donkey. But JW are not the only ones that don't recognize the existence of a heavenly abode called 'hell'. Many of today's Jews don't believe it either, but believe as Insight has already said, that flesh death is a state of nothingness.

Dear readers, it is worthy of us to pause in this study and consider the above intent.

Why move away from the OP to focus on ones religion?

What can we liken this too?

The Jews taunted Jesus in many ways and considered him worthless... Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Matt 13:55

Notice how they were calling him illegitimate, by implying "not the son of Joseph"!

And

You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father--even God." John 8:41

And

The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" John 8:48

The intent was to discredit, belittle, mock, marginalise and puff themselves up because their doctrine was being challenge by truth.

These comments from Ducky & Veteran come from feeling inferior on some level, because their teachings are revealed to be based on philosophies of men, mostly lies.

So let us see if their comments will contain a futher taint of malicious suggestion? Though I am not a JW...we shall see.

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Duckybill

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These comments from Ducky & Veteran come from feeling inferior on some level, because their teachings are revealed to be based on philosophies of men, mostly lies.
If it's based on lies then you shouldn't be afraid to answer the question:

"So then, do you believe in Jesus/God and eternal punishment in Hell?"

As Vet said, the JW's are not the only ones to deny Jesus/God and Hell.
 

Insight

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In nature, how is a body of a man different from the living creatures that God made?

The natural man has no other pre-eminence over the creatures God made as Moses made no distinction between him and them; for he styles them all "living souls", breathing the breath of lives.

Moses stated 'The Elohim said, the waters shall produce abundantly sheretz chayiah nephesh, the reptile living soul'; and again, 'kal nephesh chayiah erameshat, every living soul creeping.' In another verse 'Let the earth bring forth nephesh chayiah, the living soul after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth,' etc.; and 'lekol rumesh ol eretz as her bu nephesh chayiah, to everything creeping upon the earth which (has) in it living breath' (Gen. 1:20,21,24,30), that is breath of lives. And lastly, 'Whatsoever Adam called nephesh chayiah, that was the name thereof (Gen. 2:19)." On this evidence, fish, birds and animals possess "living souls" in common with man, demonstrating that the theory of the so-called immortal soul is a figment of the imagination, and unknown to Scripture.

If one believes 'nephesh' speaks to immortality of souls, what of animals? And if not, where is the distinction made?
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Insight

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Of course if immortality of the soul is fictitious then Hell going and Heaven going are fallacies also.
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veteran

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Even apostate christian scholars today teach this event is Paul being given a vision and revelation as in Acts 18:9, which was a similar view into the Kingdom that Christ gave Peter, James and John at the transfiguration Mat 16:28.

And they would be right!

I cannot believe you are trying to force your doctrine of immortal souls onto this passage!

The three heavens have always been interpreted as being the three phases of Gods Kingdom on Earth.

(1) Mosaic Age Deut 32:1; Isa 1:2
(2) Millennium Age Isa 65:17,18
(3) All in all Age with no end 1 Cor 15:24,25,26,27,28.

Note how Paul being caught up – He viewed with his eyes and heard with his ears. This was like a dreamlike state caught away in God's power for purpose of revelation. A vision, a trance like Acts 10:10.

Again Veteran, you have no scriptures to prove your theory only supposition which seems to be consistant with your theology.

Insight

That's a completely unrelated correlation to the 2 Cor.12 Scripture. Peter, James, and John were NOT caught up to God's Paradise when Christ was transfigured upon the mount. God's Paradise is NOT ON earth, if you haven't yet noticed, nor of this earthly dimension we live in.

As far as arguments about a soul being 'immortal', that's YOUR argument with others here that I've not really been a part of.

NO soul is immortal JUST YET! That will ONLY occur when God's Kingdom comes with the new heavens, and a new earth time.

But until... then, NO soul is destroyed in the "lake of fire" UNTIL the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign! Flesh death is NOT destruction of one's individual personality, or soul, or spirit, or whatever one wants to call it. And that's exactly what Jesus showed in Matt.10:28, which evidently, you have a big problem with!

If you would simply pay attention to Scripture as written you might not be deceived about this matter as you are. But it's obvious you're not really interested in what the Scripture says as written, but instead push Pharisee doctrines of the "Jew's religioin" of what they thought happens after death of our flesh body.

2 Cor 5:1
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(KJV)

You won't heed that above verse from Apostle Paul either, because you'd rather heed the doctrines of unbelieving Jews that you follow, doctrines which align with Death, which is exactly your idea that upon flesh death we are literally 'dead' and unconscious, knowing nothing, like in a state of 'nothingness'!
 

Insight

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That's a completely unrelated correlation to the 2 Cor.12 Scripture. Peter, James, and John were NOT caught up to God's Paradise when Christ was transfigured upon the mount.

God's Paradise is NOT ON earth, if you haven't yet noticed, nor of this earthly dimension we live in.

Num 14:21 Hab 2:14

As far as arguments about a soul being 'immortal', that's YOUR argument with others here that I've not really been a part of.
NO soul is immortal JUST YET! That will ONLY occur when God's Kingdom comes with the new heavens, and a new earth time.

When our Soul (body) will be change ? Yes 1 Cor 15:52

But until... then, NO soul is destroyed in the "lake of fire" UNTIL the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign! Flesh death is NOT destruction of one's individual personality, or soul, or spirit, or whatever one wants to call it. And that's exactly what Jesus showed in Matt.10:28, which evidently, you have a big problem with!

Lake of fire is symbolic.

If you would simply pay attention to Scripture as written you might not be deceived about this matter as you are. But it's obvious you're not really interested in what the Scripture says as written, but instead push Pharisee doctrines of the "Jew's religion" of what they thought happens after death of our flesh body.

2 Cor 5:1

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.(KJV)

His name is Jesus Christ See Dan 2:34,45; 8:25; Mark 14:58; Col 2:11; Heb 9:11

Of course you speak of the “life” which will energise our mortal bodies when Christ appears. "Our life hid with Christ" See Col 3:3,4; Phil 3:21; 2Ti 4:8; 1Pe 1:4,5.

The spirit will quicken our mortal bodies?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:11)

Must mean of course that Jesus still has the same body? with the same nail marks? Zech 12:10

Veteran, have you ever considered seeing the marks in his body?

It will make the tribe of Judah (Jerusalem) weep like they have never wept before!
 

jiggyfly

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Punishment in the fire is a clear NT doctrine.

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.


Don't forget Matt. 3:11 (NKJV)
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire
 

Duckybill

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Many think it's funny now. Wait til later.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."