1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by veteran, Apr 29, 2011.

  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    274
    What part of the below don't you understand?

    Ezekiel 28:18
    Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

    Ezekiel 28:19
    "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."
     
  2. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5
    Jesus "made his grave (sheol) with the wicked" Isa. 53:9

    Joseph went to Hell also Gen. 37:35.

    It frustrates me that Christians like yourself Comm do not understand Rom. 6:23; 8:13; James 1:15

    Empty your minds of all that you know and revisit the Book.

    Insight
     
  3. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    274
    Plan as day isn't it.........As we shall all die the first death,seems clear that this is the second death,which is the death of the soul!!!!
     
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    205
    Not only that, but the Hebrew word for "grave" in Isaiah 53:9 is 'qeber' (sepulchre), not sheol (hell, pit, grave, etc.).
     
  5. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5
    Well if your understanding of soul is the same as the Bible then the soul dies in the first death then raised to potential life...and those who don’t take part in the first resurrection will also die only to experience the second resurrection to potential life.

    In both instances the soul (body) dies and enters the grave and in both instances the body is raised to life or if unworthy, a final death.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Those dead souls in hades (Hell) that are raised and given immortality will of course never die again as per their reward Rev 1:6; 3:12

    Maybe the phrase second death is not being understood to mean those who live durring this 1000 year period.

    Hope this helps

    Insight
     
  6. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5
    Acts 2:31 is hades, hell which is consistent with Isa 53:9 and Matt 12:40 Jonah 2:1,2 etc.

    Not willing to discuss Joseph going to Hell?

    No one can refute that Jesus went to Hell...but are you surprised Veteran? he is the firstborn of the dead! Col 1:18

    These passages Veteran are impossible to reconcile with a conventional understanding of Hell.

    And this is why I keep reminding everyone that sound Bible Study must be contextual study!

    Jude 6 is so far unanswered
    Gen 6 is so far unresolved
    Soul is clearly being proven to mean living breathing creature like that of the animals
    Hell is clearly the grave

    Fire is figurative for divine punishment which is for the present age (in context) and not forever meaning eternal beyond the all in all period.

    Plenty yet to discuss.

    Insight
     
  7. brionne

    brionne Active Member

    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    94
    would anyone like to comment on why John says that he saw the dead come OUT of hell and then he saw both death and hell be destroyed...

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des (hell) gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire

    If hell is for the wicked to remain eternally, why are they seen to be coming out of it?
     
  8. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5
    Hi Pegg,

    Ah someone who is willing to ask the right questions (refreshing).

    Well the "sea" is symbolically speaking of the nations. The dead and living mortals are judged at the same time as the dead who are resurrected for the same purpose. The "death and hell" simply means a bodily resurrection which will take place at the same time. All of their works whether those dead, living or been dead for some time will be judged to determine their destiny.

    Notice how Rev 20:14 shows death and hell as "personified" they both, death and hades (grave), are likened to a person who is cast into a lake of fire to be purged and destroyed. This verse connects perfectly with 1 Cor 15:26 where death is finally destroyed.

    The second death in Rev 20:14 relates to the death which no one will awake from. So for those living or dead mortals who enter the symbolic lake of fire will find no end to their death...its an eternal death. Their part in this creation will come to an end and they will be no more Prov 21:16 Rev 2:11.

    Insight
     
  9. Comm.Arnold

    Comm.Arnold New Member

    Messages:
    662
    Likes Received:
    14

    Death is like a slumber you have no consciousness. Unless you have commited to the devil or have earned the right to go to heaven, you will go to your respective home. In any event you are behind on your studies and should keep your mouth shut abou these things. God bless brother.

    In fact Jesus mentioned that he would leave his disciples to go to the father several times ! Everyone knows that why dont you take your doctrine of the devil and get out of here you coward !!!!
     
  10. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5


    This is truth Ps. 146:4 Eccl 9:5,6 Eccl 9:10 Job 10:18 Eccl 3:18 Ps. 103:14,15,16



    Error. The Pharisees tried to silence Christ and used similar language. They resorted to these tactics because their doctrine was weak and feeble. The meek shall inherit what? Matt. 5:5 Where will the righteous live Comm? Ps. 37:11,22,29 Where is David? Acts 2:29,34 What did God give His children ? Ps. 115:16 Where shall the redeemed dwell and reign? Rev. 5:9,10 And finally what is the reward of the saints? Dan. 7:27; 2:35 compare Dan 2:44



    This is a strange statement Comm? I never said the Son wasn’t with the Father? He went to hell Acts 2:31 but His Father raised his body immortalised and redeemed, glorified and is right now in the Heavens.

    To call someone a "coward" is very hard language, if not bordering on offensive. Why not refute the truth as presented here rather than personal taunts?

    [​IMG]
     
  11. brionne

    brionne Active Member

    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    94
    i think we're on the same path brother

    :)
     
  12. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5
    Its a narrow path Pegg...but a blessed one!

    Insight
     
  13. Comm.Arnold

    Comm.Arnold New Member

    Messages:
    662
    Likes Received:
    14
    haha youve got me there brother.
     
  14. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    44
    Hell will have MANY occupants who don't believe in Hell.
     
  15. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    44
    I think it's the same path of JW's and SDA's.

    Anyone here believe JW's are Christians???
     
  16. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    274
    Since the bible does not teach the theory that unredeemed human beings possess immortality or the view that ungodly people will suffer eternal torture, the only way adherents of these beliefs can defend themselves is by milking a small number of texts for details which the entire rest of the bible refutes. The purpose of this chapter is to honestly examine these passages. Ironically, as we shall plainly see, a close examination of these texts actually gives further support for literal everlasting destruction.

    Daniel 12:2: “… Shame and Everlasting Contempt”


    Our first supposed proof text for eternal conscious torment is this passage from Daniel:

    DANIEL 12:2-3

    Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. (3) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

    This text speaks of two resurrections – the resurrection of the righteous to everlasting life, and the resurrection of the unrighteous to shame and everlasting contempt. Please notice how this text clearly states that only the righteous will be resurrected to everlasting life. “Life” here is the Hebrew word chay (the equivalent of the Greek zoe as shown in Chapter Four) which simply means “living thing” or the state of being “alive” (Vine 138). This is the very same Hebrew word used to describe the “breath of life” that God breathed into Adam to animate him (Genesis 2:7) and the “breath of life” of animals as well (Genesis 6:17; 7:15,22). This “life” is spoken of in the bible as the express opposite of death (Deuteronomy 30:19; 32:39). My point is that there’s nothing profound or mystical about the word “life” here. It simply refers to life, the state of being alive – the condition of simple conscious existence. According to the above text only one class of humanity, the righteous, will be resurrected unto everlasting life.

    What about the class of humanity that is resurrected unto “shame and everlasting contempt?” Well, one thing’s for sure, we know that they are not resurrected for the purpose of being granted life, because only the righteous will be resurrected for this purpose, the text makes this very clear. The resurrection of the unrighteous is a resurrection of shame because they are resurrected for the express purpose of judgment and condemnation. As Jesus declared:

    JOHN 5:28-29

    “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, (29) and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

    As in the passage from Daniel, we see here that only the righteous will be resurrected to live. “Those who have done evil” will be resurrected for the purpose of judgment and condemnation. Condemnation to what? Condemnation to the lake of fire where they will suffer “the second death” (Revelation 20:11-15), which consists of God destroying “both soul and body” (Mathew 10:28). Isaiah 41:11-12 explains that the ungodly will be “shamed and dishonored” in the sense that they “will perish,” “be as nothing, and non-existent” (NASB). This is the ultimate shame – to have one’s life judged so worthless and defiled that it must be blotted out of existence and memory.

    What about the “contempt” that the unrighteous will suffer which is said to be everlasting? The Hebrew for “contempt” here is deraown (day-raw-one’). Perhaps it will enlighten us to view this very same Hebrew word in another Old Testament passage, which also pertains to the eternal fate of the unrighteous. Here deraown is translated as “loathsome:”

    ISAIAH 66:22-24

    “As the new heavens and new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. (23) From one new moon to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. (24) “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome (deraown) to all mankind.”

    According to this text, what will be “loathsome to all mankind?” The dead bodies of those who rebelled against the LORD! Notice that these people are dead – all that remains of them are their lifeless “carcasses” (as the KJV states). Just as a grotesque, rotting corpse would be loathsome to you or I, so the proud and wicked people who dared to rebel against the Almighty will be everlastingly loathed and abhorred by the LORD and the righteous.
    Would you like further reinforcement that these rebels are indeed dead? Eight verses earlier it states:

    ISAIAH 66:16
    For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD.

    This text speaks for itself: On judgment day there will be many “slain by the LORD.” The ungodly will be slain, not kept alive and sadistically tormented forever. Their carcasses will be loathsome to all humanity blessed with everlasting life.
    (We will examine the phrase “their worm will not die; nor will their fire be quenched” in the forthcoming section on Mark 9:43-48).
    Lastly, immediately after informing us of the two classes of resurrections, Daniel 12:3 states how the righteous will “shine like the brightness of the heavens… like the stars forever and ever.” Notice that the text does not go on to share anything about the state of existence of those who are resurrected “to shame and everlasting contempt.” Why? Naturally because they will be “slain by the LORD.” They will not be granted everlasting life; consequently, they will have no existence of which to speak. They’ll be dead. They’ll be revolting carcasses – condemned to death for all eternity.

    “There will be Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth”


    Let’s observe a phrase Jesus used which adherents of the eternal conscious torture theory often cite to support their view:

    MATTHEW 13:40-42,49-50

    “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. (41) The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. (42) They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
    (49) “This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous (50) and throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    The key phrase here that adherents of eternal torment use to support their position is, of course, “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The bible shows Jesus using this phrase four other times in Matthew (8:12; 22:13; 24:51 & 25:30) and once in Luke (13:28).
    Devotees of never-ending conscious misery seem to think that Jesus was saying, “They will endlessly weep and gnash their teeth in fiery conscious torment forever and ever.” But the fact is that this is not what Jesus said. We need to be careful to let a biblical passage speak for itself and resist the temptation to read more into it based upon our doctrinal biases. When we read more into a simple statement like this, as just shown, we become guilty of adding to the Word of God (Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18; Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32).

    “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” is simply a solemn reminder that “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:31) for God’s enemies will experience “a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:27).
    Regarding the “weeping,” if you were an unrepentant rebel against God, would you not be weeping the day you finally fell into His hands for judgment? And would you not be wailing as you are judged unworthy of living and subsequently cast into a vast fiery furnace? And would you not wail the entire time it takes the fire to consume you – however long that would be? Of course you would. That’s why James warned rich oppressors to weep and wail for fear of God’s coming judgment, referred to as “the day of slaughter,” when fire will devour them (James 5:1-5).

    As for “gnashing of teeth,” most of us might think that this is a reference to the experience of pain, but in the bible “gnashing of teeth” describes the wrath of an adversary about to kill his victim – the teeth belong to the tormentor, not the tormented (see Job 16:9; Psalm 35:16; 37:12; Lamentations 2:16 and Acts 7:54). Psalm 112 is the only exception. The psalm starts by stating how “Blessed is the man who fears the LORD” (verse 1), and goes on to describe such a person in verses 2-9. The final verse mentions the wicked person by contrast:

    PSALM 112:10

    The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.

    As in the other texts regarding “gnashing of teeth,” the wicked man’s gnashing of teeth is evidently an expression of his fury against the righteous. Yet even while he grinds his teeth in ineffective rage, he wastes away and comes to nothing. The phrase could, in this one instance, be interpreted as a reference to pain, but the pain clearly does not last forever; the gnashing of teeth ends and the person is ultimately extinguished.
    Edward Fudge’s conclusions on “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is well expressed:

    In scriptural usage the expression ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ seems to indicate two separate activities. The ‘weeping’ reflects the terror of the doomed as they begin to realize that God has rejected them and as they anticipate the execution of his sentence. ‘Gnashing of teeth’ seems to express their bitter rage and enmity toward God, who has sentenced them, and toward the redeemed, who will forever be blessed. The common assumption that ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ describes the everlasting agony of souls in conscious torment is the interpretation of a later age and lacks any clear biblical support (The Fire that Consumes,104-105).

    Mr. Fudge does a fine job of wrapping up the matter, but let me add this: The reason I quoted the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” passage from Matthew chapter 13 above is because, unlike the other five times this phrase appears, Matthew 13 gives us enough information to properly draw a sound conclusion. In verse 42 Jesus is still explaining The Parable of the Weeds, and therefore what he is saying must be interpreted in light of what he has already said. What did he already say? In verse 40 Jesus stated “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.” Do weeds burn forever without ever quite burning up? No, they burn for a period of time until they completely burn up. It will be the same way with ungodly people on judgment day.

    In addition to this, Jesus describes the lake of fire in verses 42 and 50 as “the fiery furnace.” As we’ve already determined, “fiery furnace” is an unmistakable example of complete incineration. No one can argue with this fact. By adding that “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” Jesus is simply describing the miserable way it will be on judgment day. Can you imagine the horrible scene that it will be? The weeping, the wailing, the gnashing of teeth as God’s enemies are cast into the lake of fire and consumed by raging fire? This is the only sound way we can interpret this phrase. After all, if Jesus meant to say that these sinners would perpetually weep and gnash their teeth throughout all eternity, don’t you think he would’ve mentioned it somewhere? Yet, he mentions no such thing. Instead he continually warned against the utter death and destruction of the second death, and backed this up with a multitude of easy-to-understand examples.

    ‘What about “Outer Darkness” and “Blackest Darkness?” ’


    In three of the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” texts – Matthew 8:12; 22:13 and 25:30 – Jesus refers to the lake of fire as “outer darkness” (or as the NIV states “outside, into the darkness”). “Outer darkness” is merely one of many names the bible uses for the lake of fire. For example: Gehenna, burning sulfur, eternal fire, etc. “Outer darkness” is a fit name for the lake of fire since it is the eternal spiritual realm prepared for the devil and his angels where the light of God’s presence does not shine. When people are damned to “outer darkness” to suffer the second death, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but God will ultimately utterly destroy both soul and body. That’s why the lake of fire is referred to as “the second death” for unredeemed human beings, but not the devil and his angels who possess intrinsic unconditional immortality. The nature of the lake of fire is such that it exterminates those that are mortal and torments those that are immortal.
    Jude spoke of wicked, godless people as “wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 13). How do we harmonize this statement with the many passages that portray the lake of fire as a gigantic garbage dump where God’s raging fire utterly consumes his human enemies? Obviously “blackest darkness” refers to the state of utter, total oblivion. This is the blackest, most extreme darkness imaginable to the human mind – complete obliteration of conscious being in which there is no hope of resurrection or recovery. There is no blacker darkness than this. They “will be as nothing and non-existent” (Isaiah 41:12 NASB):

    OBADIAH 16b (KJV)
    …they shall be as though they had not been.

    “They Will Go Away to Eternal Punishment”


    Let’s look at one of the most frequently cited texts used to support the view of eternal conscious torment:

    MATTHEW 25:41,46

    “ ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ ”
    (46) “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    First of all, please notice, once again, that this text plainly declares that only the righteous will be granted eternal life. In the previous chapter we saw that “eternal life” (aionios zoe) literally refers to perpetual life in the age to come. If only the righteous will be granted eternal life in the age to come, then the unrighteous will obviously not be granted eternal life in the age to come. The bible is clear about this:

    JOHN 3:36

    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

    So what does Jesus say will be done with the unrighteous in Matthew 25:41 and 46 above? One thing’s for certain, he says nothing at all about eternal conscious life in utter misery; he merely states that they will be cast “into the eternal fire,” which is the lake of fire (verse 41), and that this is their “eternal punishment” (verse 46). Please note that Jesus said “eternal punishment” and not “eternal punishing.”
    The word “punishment” is translated from the Greek word kolasis (kol’-as-is) which refers to a “penal infliction” (Strong 43) and thus a judicial sentence. Jesus does not say here what exactly the penal infliction will be, only that it will take place in the lake of fire (“the eternal fire”) and that the infliction will last forever (that is, take place in the age to come, which lasts forever). Since Jesus doesn’t specify here what exactly the penal sentence is, we must therefore turn to the rest of scripture for answers. And we know elsewhere Jesus plainly taught that God would “destroy both soul and body” in the lake of fire (Matthew 10:28) and Paul taught that the ungodly would suffer “everlasting destruction” (2Thessalonians 1:9). Thus the bible is quite clear that the eternal punishment or penal sentence that the unrighteous will be condemned to in the lake of fire is everlasting destruction of soul and body – destruction of the whole person which lasts forever – noteternal punishing.

    Let’s also consider the fact that the bible uses the word “eternal” to describe the results of an act even when it is clear that the act itself is not of endless duration. For instance, Hebrews 9:12 speaks of the “eternal redemption” which Christ obtained for us; yet no one absurdly supposes that this redemption will be an endless process which will go on through all eternity “because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy” (Hebrews 10:14). Also, Hebrews 6:2 speaks of “eternal judgment,” yet no one ludicrously claims that the work of judging will go on forever and ever without end. In the very same way the act of punishment need not go on endlessly for the punishment to be eternal. Like eternal redemption and eternal judgment, eternal punishment is eternal in the sense that its results are eternal (McFarland 14).

    Some contend that Jesus was teaching eternal conscious torment by describing the lake of fire as “the eternal fire.” Yet this is simply a name for, and a description of, the lake of fire which was “prepared for the devil and his angels” as their eternal habitation (verse 41). As pointed out in Chapter Four, these wicked, rebellious angels possess unconditional immortality and thus must be exiled to exist somewhere for all eternity. What else can God possibly do with such evil, irredeemable creatures that can never die?

    Furthermore, as we’ve already seen in Chapter Three, Jude 7 plainly states that Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown by “eternal fire.” Since these cities have long since been completely incinerated, “eternal fire” in this context must refer to total destruction which lasts forever, and not to never-ending conscious torment. As already noted, this complete and permanent destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah is a biblical example of what will happen to the ungodly when they suffer the second death (2Peter 2:6). So, technically, the phrase “eternal fire” merely refers to destruction which lasts forever when applied to human beings. As always, we must resist the temptation to add our own biased interpretation to various biblical phrases and simply let scripture interpret scripture.

    Mark 9:43-48


    Let’s turn to another text which is often cited to prove the eternal conscious torment theory:

    MARK 9:43-48

    “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell (Gehenna) where the fire never goes out. (45) And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell (Gehenna). (47) And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), (48) where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ ”[26]

    The best way to handle this long passage is to examine it point by point and then take it as a whole.
    First of all, plainly observe that verses 43 and 45 state that it is better to enter life maimed or crippled than to be thrown into “hell” (Greek: Gehenna). Verse 47 enlightens us that those who “enter life” will “enter the kingdom of God.” This is in perfect harmony with what we’ve repeatedly witnessed in the scriptures throughout this study: only the righteous will be granted eternal life and partake of the kingdom of God in the age to come (i.e. the new Jerusalem and new earth – see Revelation chapter 21).

    If only the righteous will “enter life” in the age to come, then the unrighteous, who will be “thrown into Gehenna” (the lake of fire), will not enter any kind of life at all. No, they will suffer the second death – everlasting destruction of both soul and body – as we have repeatedly observed.

    Secondly, notice that all three times Jesus refers to the lake of fire throughout this passage he uses the example of Gehenna. As already detailed in Chapter Two, Gehenna was the local trash dump & incinerator located right outside the city walls of Jerusalem to the south. Trash, garbage and the carcasses of animals, despised criminals & vanquished enemies were thrown into Gehenna for the express purpose of disposal and eradication. Why would Jesus continually use this local trash dump & incinerator as an illustration of the lake of fire? Because Gehenna was a very certain symbol of destruction which all of his hearers readily understood. We need to keep this important fact in mind whenever viewing biblical texts that speaks of Gehenna. Sadly, most bible readers will miss out on these important facts because 1.) the English word “hell” disguises the Greek Gehenna, and 2.) they lack any historical knowledge of what Gehenna was at the time of Jesus’ earthly ministry.

    Keeping the above two points in mind let’s now observe Jesus’ statement in verse 43, “Hell (Gehenna), where the fire never goes out.” This was actually true of Gehenna – the Valley of Hinnom – as the fires of this city dump were kept constantly burning for the purpose of burning up refuse. But this is also true of the lake of fire of which Gehenna is an example. As we’ve already covered, Jesus spoke of the lake of fire as “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). The LORD had no choice but to prepare such a place after the devil and his angels rebelled against him. Since the devil and his demons possess unconditional immortality and can never die, the lake of fire will be their eternal habitation; but for mortal human beings, the lake of fire will be used as God’s chosen instrument to execute “the second death.” The fire never went out in the constantly smoking Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna), but the refuse thrown into it was eradicated – the refuse didn’t ludicrously burn forever. In the same way, the fire in the lake of fire will evidently never go out, but the people cast in it will be completely eradicated.

    “Gehenna, where ‘their Worm Does Not Die’ ”


    Let’s now examine Jesus’ statement in verse 48: “Hell (Gehenna), where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ ” Despite the obvious ambiguity of the statement, this is one of the major texts cited by adherents of the eternal torment theory to prove their view. Yet, let’s face the facts here: does Jesus say anything in this verse about people being in a state of perpetual, undying torment? No. In fact, if we were to really take this verse literally, then Jesus is evidently teaching on the immortality of worms! The case for the eternal torment theory is pretty sad indeed if its adherents must resort to citing this verse as one of their major proof texts. If the ultimate consequence of sin is as harsh and cruel as everlasting fiery conscious torture, would Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, piddle around making such ambiguous statements? No, he would not fail to clearly spell out the truth regarding such an important subject. That’s why he plainly referred to the lake of fire as Gehenna three times in this very passage, because Gehenna was a very certain symbol of destruction which backs up his many clear and solemn statements regarding the second death.

    You’ll notice that verse 48 is in quotation marks. That’s because Jesus is quoting the very last passage of the book of Isaiah. Although we’ve already viewed this verse in the section on Daniel 12:2, let’s go ahead and observe it again (from a different translation), as this is the only way we can properly interpret Jesus’ words.

    ISAIAH 66:24 (NASB)
    “They (the righteous) shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

    “The corpses” refer to the people who have transgressed against the LORD and will be thrown into the lake of fire. Please notice that they are no longer alive. They are dead. They have been destroyed. They are loathsome, ashen, worm-chewed corpses! They will be “an abhorrence to all mankind” just as an ashen, worm-chewed corpse of a despised criminal would be abhorrent to us.

    The fact that these transgressors are, in fact, lifeless corpses is backed up by verse 16 of the same chapter, which states that they will be “slain by the LORD,” and verse 17, which states that “they will meet their end.” The second death is when the ungodly will meet their end, not when they’ll meet the beginning of life in never-ending conscious agony.

    The Hebrew for “worm” refers to maggots (Strong 123). The unmistakable fact is that the bodies affected by these maggots are dead. This is natural since maggots exclusively devour dead flesh, not living creatures. And, it should be added, maggots do not die, they turn into flies.
    Being that Gehenna was a garbage dump, maggots inevitably bred freely there and preyed upon the filth. When corpses of animals or executed criminals were thrown in, they would either be destroyed by maggots, by the fires that kept constantly burning there, or by a combination of both (Hornor 22).
    Understanding the unmistakable context of Jesus’ quote from Isaiah, as well as the historical facts regarding Gehenna help us to properly interpret Jesus’ words from Mark 9:43-48.
    By not rightly dividing the Word of God – that is, being biased and superficial in their “studies” – many misguided hellfire preachers have had a field day with Mark 9:48, drawing up all kinds of bizarre interpretations, including how immortal worms will forever chew on the undying souls of the damned in hell. In response to this, I have a much less ambiguous “worm verse” that I’d like to share, which is also from the book of Isaiah:

    ISAIAH 51:8

    “For the moth will eat them up like a garment; the worm will devour them like wool. But my righteousness will last forever, my salvation through all generations.”

    Just as moths eat or destroy garments, so the ungodly will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Like Mark 9:48, this is undoubtedly a figurative example of everlasting destruction; it is meant to be taken seriously, but not necessarily literally. I doubt, after all, that there will be literal moths or worms in the lake of fire devouring those thrown in. We’ve already deduced from scripture that, literally, the ungodly will be totally consumed by raging fire – both soul and body – when cast into the lake of fire. This will result in the blackest darkness of all – absolute obliteration and extinction of being.

    Notice how the everlasting destruction of the ungodly is contrasted with the LORD’s righteousness and salvation which will last forever. Those who accept God’s gracious gift of salvation – eternal life – will experience this salvation forever. Those who reject it have no “forever” to look forward to; they will be destroyed like garments devoured by moths or worms. Verses 3,6-8 & 11 also confirm that this is indeed an eschatological text and thus relevant to the eternal fate of ungodly people. Why is it that adherents of the eternal torment theory fail to ever mention this “worm verse”? I’ll tell you why – because it contradicts the religious-traditional position they so dearly embrace.[27]
    Gehenna… Where the Fire is Not Quenched”


    Let us now consider the latter part of verse 48 where Jesus states, “hell (Gehenna)… where the fire is not quenched.” Adherents of eternal torture often attach their own meaning to this statement and suggest that it is supportive of their view. Yet, there are multiple references to unquenchable fire throughout the scriptures and none of these passages refer to eternal conscious torment but rather to fire that cannot be extinguished or resisted and consumes until nothing is left. See for yourself how evident this is from this text:

    JEREMIAH 7:20
    Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place (Judah), on man and beast, on the trees of the field, and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

    “Burn and not be quenched” in this passage could not possibly refer to burning forever without end. After all, will the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground, as well as the men and beasts of Judah, burn forever?
    Here’s another example from Jeremiah:

    JEREMIAH 21:12b, 14
    “…my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done – burn with no one to quench it.”
    “I will punish you as your deeds deserve,” declares the LORD. “I will kindle a fire in your forests that will consume everything around you.”

    We clearly see here that God’s wrath will break out and “burn with no one to quench it” in the sense that it will “consume everything.”

    These and many other texts which mention unquenchable fire prove that such phrases simply refer to the irrevocability of God’s judgment and wrath – for when the LORD’s judgment is pronounced and the fire is set to destroy, he will allow nothing to quench it until the consumption is complete (see, for example, Isaiah 34:9-11; Ezekiel 20:47-48; Amos 5:6; Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17).

    Let us now examine Mark 9:43-48 as a whole. Jesus made very similar comments in Matthew 5:29-30 and 18:8-9. The point Jesus is making in these texts is clear: If we want to enter eternal life we must be careful to cut off things in our present lives that cause us to sin, because the wages of sin is death, and this wage will be meted out in Gehenna, the lake of fire, God’s garbage dump & incinerator. More basically, Jesus is simply encouraging us to flee from sin because it will prevent us from entering life, and will, in fact, lead to ultimate extinction. This is a very important matter, but this is all Jesus is essentially saying in these texts. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, made the same point a bit more succinctly when he declared “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
     
  17. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5


    What can be said [​IMG]

    Now whoever wrote this understood, at least in part, the way certain phrases are used in the Scriptures.

    Yesterday I tried to convey this to Ducky regarding Edom.

    God punished the land of Idumea (Edom) with fire that would "not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste...the owl and the raven shall dwell in it...thorns shall come up in her palaces" (Isa 34:9-15).

    Now if we applied a literal approach to every verse as Ducky has proven to do, we would expect to see absolutely no animals in this land today. Seeing that animals and plants were to exist in the ruined land of Idumea, the language of eternal fire must refer to God's anger and His total destruction of the place, rather than being taken literally.

    Thank you N2thelight.
     
  18. brionne

    brionne Active Member

    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    94

    lol

    keep beating that dead horse ducky :)
     
  19. Insight

    Insight New Member

    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    5
    Sadly it appears some here only view the Scriptures on a superficial level. Rather than opening up the Word and getting inside they would rather speak at it from a lofty distance.

    If you read the Bible literally so much of its message would be lost to you and its thier loss.

    I keep saying it "context" the find out the circumstances surounding the text and finally understand the use of phrases and Hebrew / Greek words.

    Comparing Scripture with Scripture as you have shown (N2thelight) is also another way to establish truth.

    God Bless your studies.

    Insight

    Yes Pegg

    The Pharisees (majority) believed they were Gods children and how wrong were they? Luke 13:28

    Ducky has taken a dangerous stance in deriding other Christian groups.

    Insight
     
  20. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    274
    Your welcome,here's the link below

    http://hell-know.net/

    It really does a very good job in explaining the supposed proof texts for eternal torture
     
Loading...