Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

[Insight]

A caution of the apostle which Paul gave the disciples at Colosse was very important; but it was a caution which they did not regard. It was this same philosophy and vain deceit which had subverted the truth among the Israelites in the ages before the birth of Messiah. To them were committed the Oracles of God also; but these were made of none effect by the traditions which they received from the Chaldean, Persians, Greeks & Romans under whose sovereignty they successively passed. The darkness overpowered them, as it is written

"There if none that understandeth they are all gone out of the way," Romans 3:10,11,12

They embraced the traditions of their rulers, who spoiled them with mythological philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men so long as they continued satisfied with the Law and the Prophets, their spiritual language remained pure, and uncorrupted by the phrases which man's wisdom teacheth. They spoke NOT of immortal souls in heaven or in hell and before their Captivity and the Macedonian and Roman conquests, the Jews observed the most profound silence upon the state of the deceased as to their happiness or misery.

They spoke of it as place of silence, darkness and inactivity. Ps 94:17; 31:17...

 

[Insight]

Moses says, that God made Man a Living Soul; but Orthodoxy says that God made man an 'immortal soul’.

God said "in the day thou eatest of the Tree of Knowledge dying THOU shalt die" but the dogmatist says, 'in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die figuratively, and thy body shall die literally; and thus thy immortal soul 'shall become liable to the pains of hell forever.*

God said, 'dust thou art & unto dust thou shalt return but the dogmatical theologians say, 'dust is thy body and of the Divine Essence thy soul, and unto dust shall thy mortal body return, and thy soul to me, or else to hell.'

The contrast between what is termed “God said” (truth) compared to theology (error) is worthy of consideration given the severe consequence found in their error.

 

[veteran]

You're right Prentis... I got a little carried away. I still Love Veteran, it's just his doctrine that really get's my brotherly love in turmoil. The difference between me and Veteran is, Veteran believes if I don't meet his requirements I am going to hell. I believe if Veteran doesn't meet my requirements he will still make it in the Kingdom. My point was... many believe that the present situation is so far gone that even God cannot reverse it and will have to destroy the earth. The story of Jonah seems to indicate otherwise. It would be wise to examine our hearts to be sure that we would rejoice with God, were He to be the Savior of the world, rather than its destroyer. Remember what God told Jonah in 4:10 and 11, 10 Then the LORD said, You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work, and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight. 11 And should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals? God is pointing out a heart problem in Jonah. We must be careful that we do not allow ourselves to have the same attitude. Logabe

Now, now Logabe, you know that's not true what you say about me. You're bearing false witness when you suggest that I ever condemned anyone to hell, regardless of whether they agree with me or not. None of us have the authority to sentence anyone to hell.

But we can... warn if someone is in danger of hell fire. That's the difference. As of yet, the only ones already judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire" is Satan and his angels that rebelled.

A caution of the apostle which Paul gave the disciples at Colosse was very important; but it was a caution which they did not regard. It was this same philosophy and vain deceit which had subverted the truth among the Israelites in the ages before the birth of Messiah. To them were committed the Oracles of God also; but these were made of none effect by the traditions which they received from the Chaldean, Persians, Greeks & Romans under whose sovereignty they successively passed. The darkness overpowered them, as it is written

"There if none that understandeth they are all gone out of the way," Romans 3:10,11,12

They embraced the traditions of their rulers, who spoiled them with mythological philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men so long as they continued satisfied with the Law and the Prophets, their spiritual language remained pure, and uncorrupted by the phrases which man's wisdom teacheth. They spoke NOT of immortal souls in heaven or in hell and before their Captivity and the Macedonian and Roman conquests, the Jews observed the most profound silence upon the state of the deceased as to their happiness or misery.

They spoke of it as place of silence, darkness and inactivity. Ps 94:17; 31:17...

Christ described the abode of the wicked in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Just as with all His other parables, the objects in them were real.

Peter in 1 Pet.3 spoke of how Christ went and preached to the "spirits in prison" after His resurrection. The idea of a 'prison' for the abode of the wicked in the heavenly is used in both the Old Testament and New Testament Books. That's already enough to establish what Jesus taught in Luke 16 of a place of separation in the heavenly.

 

[Insight]

Luke16:23

“In hell” Gk “Hades” means “unseen place”.

Is the same word as Acts 2:27, 31. Which is rendered “grave” in 1 Cor 15:55.

To the Pharisee in their belief, the silence of the grave is a place of torment.

 

[veteran]

Luke16:23

“In hell” Gk “Hades” means “unseen place”.

Is the same word as Acts 2:27, 31. Which is rendered “grave” in 1 Cor 15:55.

To the Pharisee in their belief, the silence of the grave is a place of torment.

Because they believed that, that apparently was why Jesus tried to show them about the reality of life after death.

Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
(KJV)

 

[Insight]

The reality is found in Psalm 6:5 it is written, 'in death there is no remembrance of thee, Ο Lord: in the grave [sheh-ole'] who shall give thee thanks?

And to Abraham the Lord God spoke, saying “And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. Genesis 15:15

Abraham did certainly not go to his own bosom, but to his fathers of whom Terah was an idolator.

Was Terah in heaven?

Where Terah was, there was his son Abraham, sleeping in the dust till the Lord his God should raise him from the dead.

No parabolic symbology.

 

[Insight]

Moses says, that God made Man a Living Soul; but Orthodoxy says that God made man an 'immortal soul’. God said "in the day thou eatest of the Tree of Knowledge dying THOU shalt die" but the dogmatist says, 'in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die figuratively, and thy body shall die literally; and thus thy immortal soul 'shall become liable to the pains of hell forever.* God said, 'dust thou art & unto dust thou shalt return but the dogmatical theologians say, 'dust is thy body and of the Divine Essence thy soul, and unto dust shall thy mortal body return, and thy soul to me, or else to hell.' The contrast between what is termed “God said” (truth) compared to theology (error) is worthy of consideration given the severe consequence found in their error.

'And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth is hand and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat and live forever; therefore, the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden;

The Dogmatists alter this to suit their systems in teaching that the pronoun ‘he’ has reference to his body. With this emendation it should read 'lest he put forth his hand and eat, and his body live forever.' But, it is easier said than proved, that a 'Living Soul; and an Immortal Soul' are identical.

They are not the same; but as diverse as blood and spirit.

 

[veteran]

In reality, the dogmatists are those who hold to ideas like we literally sleep in the dust, when that's an expression for death of our flesh body. Our soul continues after flesh death, even as written...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(KJV)


Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(KJV)

By understanding of just those two Scriptures, The Lord reveals our 'soul' part is not dead when our flesh body dies. It reveals that our flesh body is NOT the same part of our being as our soul and spirit.

The word "hell" in the Matt.10:28 example is the Greek word for Hinnom, the valley of Hinnom that was a perpetual burning garbage pit outside Jerusalem, and where Israel was at sometime deceived into sacrificing children in the fire (Jer.7). Our Lord Jesus used it as a symbol for the "lake of fire" event that will occur at the end of Rev.20, at the end of His future Millennium reign, what Rev.20 calls the "second death".

Per 1 Peter 3, Christ at His resurrection descended to the abode of the wicked in the heavenly dimension and preached to the "spirits in prison", which was prophesied He would do in Isaiah 42:7.

A closer look at Psalms 6 reveals David was speaking of his 'soul', in contrast to his flesh body...

Ps 6:1-5
1 O LORD, rebuke me not in Thine anger, neither chasten me in Thy hot displeasure.
2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.
3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?
4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for Thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?
(KJV)

Can we properly treat both those bones and the soul as speaking of the flesh body? No, not if we heed what Matt.10:28 is teaching, and what Christ said to the malefactor crucified with Him that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. The word "grave" is Hebrew sheowl, which is also used for the abode of the wicked in the heavenly dimension, a heavenly prison pit.

 

[aspen]

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’


-- Either you believe Jesus' own words on the topic, or you don't.

Antisocial people are unable to give or receive love. They become sarcastic, angry, and pompous when confronted with love. Heaven is going to be filled with lovers - antisocial people would be tortured in the presence of people who are living in their true selves. God has prepared a place for those cursed with living in the false self. Hell is suicide of the true self

 

[Insight]

In reality, the dogmatists are those who hold to ideas like we literally sleep in the dust, when that's an expression for death of our flesh body. Our soul continues after flesh death, even as written... Matt 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (KJV)

Yes Veteran, men can kill the Body, they can deprive it of life; but the life itself they cannot destroy. That life is beyond their reach. They may reduce the body to dust and ashes, and scatter it to the winds, but the life which shall reanimate that dust is infinitely above their control. It is hid; it is hid in God, not in the germ or dust, but with Christ, as it is written, 'pure life is hid with Christ in God. “When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall we also appear with him in glory” Col 3:4.

But this fact the wise men of Israel did not believe, and today, the Christian has missed the mark.

The ease of understanding such passages, as you cite in Matt10:28 are made confusing, but are in fact clear.

Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (psyche); but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna'. Matt 10:28KJV

The word 'soul' here is the same word in the Greek as in Matt 16:25,26 where it occurs four times, being twice translated life & often soul, it reads, “whosoever will save his life [psyche], shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life or soul (psyche) for my sake, shall find it: [for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul or life [psyche]? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul or life (psyche)?”

There is no good reason why in both these places psyche should not be rendered “life” throughout. Hence the former passage will read.

Fear not them who kill the body, but cannot finally extinguish the life, but rather fear him who is able to abolish both life and body in Gehenna.'

This is obviously the correct interpretation as it appears from the parallel passage in Luke 12:4 which reads:

“I say unto you, my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you what ye shall fear: Fear him who after he hath killed hath power to cast into Gehenna,”

Cast what into Gehenna?

The body unquestionably; first killed and then finally destroy psyche, life or soul, is as applicable to the lower animals as to man; if however you contended it signifies 'immortal soul,' it must be conceded, that the souls of beasts are immortal as well! Eccl 3:19

 

[veteran]

The problem with the Greek words in the NT for soul and spirit, is that the context of their usage at times overlaps, revealing the translators often weren't sure how the difference between pneuma and psuche was really meant. Yet Hebrews 4:12 makes a distinction between the two revealing at the least, that spirit and soul are two different attributes of our being... distinct from our flesh body...

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma), and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(KJV)

Right there 3 different parts of our created being is made distinct from one another: 1) "soul", 2) "spirit", and 3) "marrow".

psuche means 'breath' (KJV as 'heart', 'life', 'mind', 'soul', 'us', 'you')
pneuma means 'a current of air' (KJV as 'ghost', 'life', 'spirit', 'mind')


Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
(KJV)

Jesus told the malefactor he would be with Him in Paradise, not the next week, not at Christ's second coming, but THAT DAY.

But which part would be with Jesus in Paradise that day?

Apostle Paul already gave us in-depth descriptions of what kind of body the raising of the dead is. It is not a flesh body like we have today. It is a "spiritual body", what he also called "the image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15). Is that of the "spirit" of Eccl.12? Yes. Does that also... contain the "soul" part? Yes. But is that about the flesh body we have today? NO.

In the heavenly, do the angels have an 'image'? Yes, and that's how Christ said we would appear in the resurrection per Matt.22:30, "as the angels of God in heaven." That aligns perfectly with what Paul declared that as we have borne the "image of the earthy", we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15).

That also... aligns perfectly with our Lord's story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, where they both died, their flesh bodies buried, with the soul and spirit of Lazarus carried by the angels to one side in Paradise, and the spirit and soul of the rich man finding himself on the other side in hell (Greek haides).

The "spiritual body" is the outward image appearence in the heavenly dimension. But the 'soul' is the Id, or center of one's person or being. The flesh body is only a shell for the spiritual body and soul.

The angels have a spirit body image and a soul, but not a flesh body. The reason why Christ said in the resurrection we are "as the angels of God in heaven" is because when our flesh body is dead, the part of us that remains and continues, is our spiritual body image with soul (individual personality).

In 1 Cor.15:52 Paul made a distinction in the Greek with 4 different words, pointing to 2 different states of existence after death of our flesh bodies. One state is with the heavenly image spiritual body with a still liable to die mortal soul, and the other state is with a heavenly image spiritual body with a soul that is made immortal in Christ Jesus.

In 1 Peter 3, with Christ going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to them, they were NOT in flesh bodies, and those "spirits" were NOT just some animate force that went back to God that had no individual personality (i.e., soul).

So in Eccl.12, the distinction between the flesh body and spirit also includes one's soul (individual personality) along with that spirit that goes back to God Who gave it. God gave it because He created our 'spirit' part, and it is NOT just some animate force only, like what animates a grasshopper!

That this is not just a fanciful theory, even Kerulian photography has shown. Those type photos look like slide negatives. Plants with all its branches intact were photographed, and then a branch torn off with another photo taken. An aura type image of the torn off branch still existed in the 2nd photo, even though the plant branch was missing. This is why amputees have often complained about pain or itching of a limb long after the limb had been amputated. It's because the "spiritual body" part of the limb is still there intact, even though the flesh limb isn't.

 

[Insight]

Heb 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma), and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (KJV)

Right there 3 different parts of our created being is made distinct from one another: 1) "soul", 2) "spirit", and 3) "marrow".

psuche means 'breath' (KJV as 'body' 'heart', 'life', 'mind', 'soul', 'us', 'you')
pneuma means 'a current of air' (KJV as 'ghost', 'life', 'spirit', 'mind')

Definite articles provided. Heb 4:12 answers itself, no exposition required from either of us!

Context: Sacrificial idioms in use.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul (psuche = BODY ) and spirit (pneuma=MIND), and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (MIND).

Division is two (2)

"Joints and Marrow" answers to the psuche i.e FLESH BODY
"Thoughts and intents" answer to the pueuma i.e MIND, THOUGHTS, REASONINGS

Veteran, the language adopted is one of sacrifice where the author moves from the physical sacrifice and its examination (that is the body i.e. blemishes) to the spiritual (Mind i.e. Thoughts and Intentions motivated by God). Thus the inner recesses of the animal symbolise the thoughts and attitudes of the human mind!

Therefore, animal man is likened to the examination of the animal offering, though its mind is carnal and cannot manifest the Mind of God. Rom 8:7

However man is made in the Image and likeness of the Elohim possessing one of two minds Rom 8:6 The mind governed by the flesh is death (1), but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace (2).

Context is essential in understanding truth.

 

[Insight]

Luke 23:42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." 43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise." (KJV) Jesus told the malefactor he would be with Him in Paradise, not the next week, not at Christ's second coming, but THAT DAY.

Luke 23:42

Remember me Lord when thou “Comest in thy Kingdom” Literally means “In your Kingdom”. He viewed Jesus as “the kingdom”. RSV states “in your kingly power”

Trying to force or defend error with this passage is not wise. The phrase almost word for word of Joseph in Gen 40:14: "But when all goes well with you, remember me and show me kindness; mention me to Pharaoh and get me out of this prison."

Of course, he and Joseph await the Lords return as Joseph waited the release from his prison {grave}

 

[Duckybill]

Luke 23:42

Remember me Lord when thou “Comest in thy Kingdom” Literally means “In your Kingdom”. He viewed Jesus as “the kingdom”.

I just looked at 17 English translations and no way can you can get that Jesus is "the kingdom" out of that.

 

[Insight]

The correct reading of Luke 23:42 were later found to be an error with the King James translators, but the revisers noted it (see RSV "when you come in your kingly power").

The Latin Vulgate rendering, "in regnum tuum" (to your kingdom) and the King James, "into thy kingdom," give the impression that the reference is to Christ's return to heaven after the resurrection - hence the common misunderstanding.

No such meaning is entailed in the Greek text. The reading of the Latin Vulgate and that of the King James Version exceed the limits of the Greek text on this point.

The man requested that he might be remembered, NOT on that day, but at the time when Christ would return in the power and glory of his kingdom.

RSV & NIV Footnote:

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.*

* Some manuscripts come with your kingly power

I just looked at 17 English translations and no way can you can get that Jesus is "the kingdom" out of that.

The malefactor comprehended his Kingship and the nature of his coming Kingdom. Matt 10:7 “The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand” therefore, Jesus IS the Kingdom of Heaven. See Matt 3:2; Luke 17:21

Who was the King referring to in Luke 17:21? And who is the King in the "midst" of in Luke 23:39,40 ?

The Kingdom walk among them, in the midst of them, and finally was lifted up above them, but we ask, how many received that Kingdom? John 1:11

The malefactor did!

 

[Duckybill]

The malefactor comprehended his Kingship and the nature of his coming Kingdom. Matt 10:7 “The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand” therefore, Jesus IS the Kingdom of Heaven. See Matt 3:2; Luke 17:21

Yeah, I understand what you are saying but nearly every English translation disagrees with you.

 

[Insight]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying but nearly every English translation disagrees with you.

The translators have adopted the precedence (KJV) but that's fine providing we understand the true intent of the malefactor. We can push a belief into a passage that "may" not be present.

You may like to refer to Young’s Literal Translation: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&t=RSV#vrsn/42

and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'

In contrast to Veterans comment below.

Jesus told the malefactor he would be with Him in Paradise, not the next week, not at Christ's second coming, but THAT DAY.

The malefactor is seeing afar off to his (Kingdom) second coming; like those in Heb 11:13.

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

Luke 23:42 (ESV)
42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

Luke 23:42 (ASV)
42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.

Luke 23:42 (NIV)
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Luke 23:42 (NASB)
42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

Luke 23:42 (NKJV)
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

Luke 23:42 (WesleyNT)
42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me, when thou comest in thy kingdom.

Luke 23:42 (BBE)
42 And he said, Jesus, keep me in mind when you come in your kingdom.

Luke 23:42 (MontgomeryNT)
42 Then he added, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom."

Luke 23:42 (Darby)
42 And he said to Jesus, Remember me, [Lord,] when thou comest in thy kingdom.

Luke 23:42 (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:42 (MaceNT)
42 then said he to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you enter into your kingdom.

Luke 23:42 (NASB77)
42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

Luke 23:42 (NLT)
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”

Luke 23:42 (NRSV)
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Luke 23:42 (TLB)
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

Luke 23:42 (WEY)
42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your Kingdom."

 

[Insight]

Its a Greek thing

 

[Duckybill]

Its a Greek thing

I suspect those who wrote our English Bibles knew Greek pretty well.