Where does the Bible say?

[ChristisGod]

I don't have to speak it - I go to a scholarly source like Strong's.

YOU sound like you watched too many "Leave It To Beaver" episodes in mommy's basement . . .

it sounds like you know how to use a strongs , basics 101 sunny boy.

 

[kcnalp]

Boy - this gets more pathetic by the minute.
What grade are you in? Doesn't you're mommy's basement have a dictionary?

Here is the entry from Strong's . . .
κατα
Pronunciation: kat-ah'
Definition: 1) down from, through out 2) according to, toward, along

ηολοσ
Pronunciation: hol'-os
Definition: 1) all, whole, completely
a primary word; "whole" or "all", i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb:-all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

And them's the facts . .

And NONE of that proves "Catholic" is in the Bible. Your opinions do not overrule our Christian Bibles.

 

[kcnalp]

I don't have to speak it - I go to a scholarly source like Strong's.

YOU sound like you watched too many "Leave It To Beaver" episodes in mommy's basement . . .

Catholics are quite practiced at hurling insults when they are losing.

 

[kcnalp]

Boy - this gets more pathetic by the minute.
What grade are you in? Doesn't you're mommy's basement have a dictionary?

Here is the entry from Strong's . . .
κατα
Pronunciation: kat-ah'
Definition: 1) down from, through out 2) according to, toward, along

ηολοσ
Pronunciation: hol'-os
Definition: 1) all, whole, completely
a primary word; "whole" or "all", i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb:-all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

And them's the facts . .

Gee, I'm looking but still don't see "Catholic".

 

[Candidus]

Kecharitomene indicates a PAST event with a PERMANENT result because it is grace that has been "perfectly and completely endowed."

My example of Donald Trump is accurate and applies to the text at hand. Nothing in the context of Luke 1:28 that would even imply anything other than acknowledging that Mary had a grace that continues up to that moment when the angel spoke to her. The word to describe this grace is certainly a means of telling us that Mary was given a unique grace. Yet, the perfect Tense in no way establishes a PERMANENT result. That is just not an accurate definition of the Perfect Tense. Your definition of the Perfect Tense is flawed and incorrect.

 

[Mungo]

My example of Donald Trump is accurate and applies to the text at hand. Nothing in the context of Luke 1:28 that would even imply anything other than acknowledging that Mary had a grace that continues up to that moment when the angel spoke to her. The word to describe this grace is certainly a means of telling us that Mary was given a unique grace. Yet, the perfect Tense in no way establishes a PERMANENT result. That is just not an accurate definition of the Perfect Tense. Your definition of the Perfect Tense is flawed and incorrect.

Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178))

 

[Candidus]

As I stated earlier - people in Heaven are in this state. They have been perfected in grace and completely endowed with it. Therefore - they can no longer sin because the perfection of grace within them completely and perfectly joins them to God's will.

You and I are not perfectly joined to His will yet because we still struggle with sin and are being sanctified daily.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you are allowing your spiritual failures to dictate the meaning of Sanctification, and you are doing so by utterly abandoning the use of the Perfect Tense (especially YOUR definition of the Perfect Tense) when it becomes inconvenient to you.

For by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10:14

He has perfected (perfect tense,) for ever them that are sanctified (present tense.)

He has perfected (in the past, with continuing results) for ever, them that are now (presently, this very moment) being made holy.

Once again, to have the perfect and the present tense together creates an absurdity if holiness was a past, finished event that results in PERMANENT PERFECT HOLINESS (your definition) holiness from a reference point of 2000 years ago, but yet, at the same time, we are being made holy today (PRESENT TENSE). This is self-contradictory. It is either completed in the past or it is to be completed in the present, it cannot be both.

Though I am usually not a big fan of the NIV, it does an excellent job of capturing the tenses and bringing them over into English.

Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those that are being made holy. (NIV) The text flows nicely when we see the "once for all" sacrifice (provision) on the cross perfecting believers all throughout history, and those who believe now, who are presently being made holy.

"You and I are not perfectly joined to His will yet because we still struggle with sin and are being sanctified daily."

Why would you insist on Greek Grammar concerning grace and Mary, and ignore Greek Grammar when it speaks of sanctification? Why do not ignore the fact that Scripture in Greek speaks of sanctification in the PRESENT TENSE, here and now? Why would you ignore the fact that the Bible never has sanctification in the FUTURE TENSE? It just seems like you are being inconsistent and selective in your use of Greek Grammar. It also appears that you judge Scripture by your experience, and are not allowing Scripture to judge your experience.

Greek, especially Koine Greek is not as perfect and precise as some people may make it out to be, especially when translated over to another language. It is kind of like the American boy from Kentucky answering a question from the preacher from London, The boy saying... "I can't understand what you are saying!" The preacher responded to him... "Don't you speak English?" The Kentucky boy was correct when he said... "I don't speak English, I speak American!"

Just like in English, a Greek Lexicon will testify to the myriads of definitions that come from one single word. Compound that with another language, especially English where the English equivalent has just as many variations of one word as Greek does. Sometimes, the art of translation is just not as exacting as we would like to imagine that it should be.

In American (English) in my lifetime, the word "bad" has evolved. It used to be only a negative, a moral meaning of terrible, rotten, wrong. Now since Michael Jackson's song "Bad," it means in Koine (common) usage, good, strong, morally determined and correct.
What exactly did any term mean in the moment it was written in time? How do we know when a transition in meaning occurred? Were they using the new or the old definition? Compound that now with modern English and how we might translate that word. What will it mean in English 200 years from now if someone reads what we have written?

 

[Candidus]

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178))

A single, lonely deviation does not establish a "standard" of what the PERFECT TENSE means, especially when you must apply bias when you read his English explanation. "[E]nduringly endowed with grace" can simply mean what the Perfect Tense implies; that Mary was the recipient of God's grace in her life up that endured up to that moment. That would agree with every unbiased Greek Scholar on the planet.

 

[Candidus]

Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

Exactly, and does not to go beyond the "present" when this was written! The Perfect Tense only applies to that moment and not beyond. Yet, this Grammatical Fact does not exclude that it may continue beyond that point, but if that was the intended meaning, the writer would have used the Future Tense. Therefore, one cannot claim any such continuance of grace; they can only assume it, which would be bias and not exegesis.

 

[BreadOfLife]

it sounds like you know how to use a strongs , basics 101 sunny boy.

Uh huh - and if YOU did your homework the way I do, you'd see that I was right . . .

 

[ChristisGod]

Uh huh - and if YOU did your homework the way I do, you'd see that I was right . . .

I've been doing my homework since 1980. I have been studying Scripture daily since I was saved in 1980. I have every Greek Lexicon and reference work there is available. My old pastor when I was young taught NT Greek in Seminary and he was my next door neighbor and became my good friend and he taught me one on one for 2 years.

So you are preaching to the choir..................................

 

[BreadOfLife]

And NONE of that proves "Catholic" is in the Bible. Your opinions do not overrule our Christian Bibles.

Catholics are quite practiced at hurling insults when they are losing.

Gee, I'm looking but still don't see "Catholic".

Hey, YOUR voluntary blindness is YOUR problem - not mine.

When YOU stand before God, and He asks you why you rejected His Word - it's not me who will have to give Him an answer YOU will.

I DID my homework - YOU refused . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've been doing my homework since 1980. I have been studying Scripture daily since I was saved in 1980. I have every Greek Lexicon and reference work there is available. My old pastor when I was young taught NT Greek in Seminary and he was my next door neighbor and became my good friend and he taught me one on one for 2 years.

So you are preaching to the choir..................................

Then YOU should know better than to reject the truth in the Greek text, shouldn't you?

 

[ChristisGod]

Then YOU should know better than to reject the truth in the Greek text, shouldn't you?

I don't reject it , I can say the same thing about your interpretations of scripture. Look anyone can spin scripture to fit their doctrines which is why forums like this exist.

For instance take a look at the Resurrection thread I started in the christian theology forum and prove me wrong on anything you choose or in any thread I started in that forum. I challenge you to go there and prove anything I have said that is wrong. I have 4 threads there i started all surrounding the Person of Christ.

 

[Mungo]

A single, lonely deviation does not establish a "standard" of what the PERFECT TENSE means, especially when you must apply bias when you read his English explanation. "[E]nduringly endowed with grace" can simply mean what the Perfect Tense implies; that Mary was the recipient of God's grace in her life up that endured up to that moment. That would agree with every unbiased Greek Scholar on the planet.

You've consulted every Greek scholar on the planet have you?

 

[Candidus]

You've consulted every Greek scholar on the planet have you?

Obviously more than you have!

 

[BreadOfLife]

My example of Donald Trump is accurate and applies to the text at hand. Nothing in the context of Luke 1:28 that would even imply anything other than acknowledging that Mary had a grace that continues up to that moment when the angel spoke to her. The word to describe this grace is certainly a means of telling us that Mary was given a unique grace. Yet, the perfect Tense in no way establishes a PERMANENT result. That is just not an accurate definition of the Perfect Tense. Your definition of the Perfect Tense is flawed and incorrect.

My thoughts are that you are allowing your spiritual failures to dictate the meaning of Sanctification, and you are doing so by utterly abandoning the use of the Perfect Tense (especially YOUR definition of the Perfect Tense) when it becomes inconvenient to you.

For by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb. 10:14

He has perfected (perfect tense,) for ever them that are sanctified (present tense.)

He has perfected (in the past, with continuing results) for ever, them that are now (presently, this very moment) being made holy.

Once again, to have the perfect and the present tense together creates an absurdity if holiness was a past, finished event that results in PERMANENT PERFECT HOLINESS (your definition) holiness from a reference point of 2000 years ago, but yet, at the same time, we are being made holy today (PRESENT TENSE). This is self-contradictory. It is either completed in the past or it is to be completed in the present, it cannot be both.

Though I am usually not a big fan of the NIV, it does an excellent job of capturing the tenses and bringing them over into English.

Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those that are being made holy. (NIV) The text flows nicely when we see the "once for all" sacrifice (provision) on the cross perfecting believers all throughout history, and those who believe now, who are presently being made holy.

"You and I are not perfectly joined to His will yet because we still struggle with sin and are being sanctified daily."

Why would you insist on Greek Grammar concerning grace and Mary, and ignore Greek Grammar when it speaks of sanctification? Why do not ignore the fact that Scripture in Greek speaks of sanctification in the PRESENT TENSE, here and now? Why would you ignore the fact that the Bible never has sanctification in the FUTURE TENSE? It just seems like you are being inconsistent and selective in your use of Greek Grammar. It also appears that you judge Scripture by your experience, and are not allowing Scripture to judge your experience.

Greek, especially Koine Greek is not as perfect and precise as some people may make it out to be, especially when translated over to another language. It is kind of like the American boy from Kentucky answering a question from the preacher from London, The boy saying... "I can't understand what you are saying!" The preacher responded to him... "Don't you speak English?" The Kentucky boy was correct when he said... "I don't speak English, I speak American!"

Just like in English, a Greek Lexicon will testify to the myriads of definitions that come from one single word. Compound that with another language, especially English where the English equivalent has just as many variations of one word as Greek does. Sometimes, the art of translation is just not as exacting as we would like to imagine that it should be.

In American (English) in my lifetime, the word "bad" has evolved. It used to be only a negative, a moral meaning of terrible, rotten, wrong. Now since Michael Jackson's song "Bad," it means in Koine (common) usage, good, strong, morally determined and correct.
What exactly did any term mean in the moment it was written in time? How do we know when a transition in meaning occurred? Were they using the new or the old definition? Compound that now with modern English and how we might translate that word. What will it mean in English 200 years from now if someone reads what we have written?

Once again - NOBODY else in ALL of Scripture is called, "Kecharitomene", except for Mary.
For the rest of us - salvation is a lifelong process.

The Bible assures us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe and be obedient.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

So, the verses that you presented about the rest of us must be read in context with the ones above.
For Mary - Kecharitomene imnplies that the grace SHE was endowed with was perfectly completed. Since it was - and her will was now perfectly in sync with God's - she would be unable to sin, just like those in Heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your definition of the Perfect Tense is flawed and incorrect.

It's not "my" definition.
This is scholarly linguistic evidence by by Greek linguists who are FAR more qualified than either one of us to define Kecharitomene.

 

[BreadOfLife]

cut and pasting Greek is not reading, writing, speaking or translating Greek into English.

And NONE of that proves "Catholic" is in the Bible. Your opinions do not overrule our Christian Bibles.

This TOTALLY reminds me of the following passage:

John 9:40-41
Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?”
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

And just like the Pharisees - YOUR blindness is self-imposed . . .

 

[ChristisGod]

This TOTALLY reminds me of the following passage:

John 9:40-41
Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?”
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

And just like the Pharisees - YOUR blindness is self-imposed . . .

please bring your vast expert knowledge over to the Theology forum and discuss any of the 4 threads over there I started and see if you can refute one single thing I've said. Are you up for the challenge ?

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