Where does the Bible say...

[BreadOfLife]

The authority set forth in Mt. 28 which we call the Great Commission were given to all believers and not only to the Apostles of Jesus' day.

Only the Eleven were present when the Great Commission was given, not "all believers". You are reading into the passage what isn't there.

This dogmatic statement is not in the Bible. God gave His authority to the church He established. The anti-church, anti-institution mentality does violence to Scripture and all of Christian history.

Yes - the Great Commission was a et of instructions given to the leaders of His Church - NOT to the crowds in general.

 

[theefaith]

Interested in what interests you. Surely you did not come to this thread to merely hear what others have to say, and have your own thing to say.



Where Does The Bible Say [Thread], as far as I am aware. So I was curious as to your own interest in this thread, and in other things.

it’s a common heresy that the Bible alone is the only or ultimate authority,
But the authority is Christ established on Peter, the apostles, and their successors

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

 

[theefaith]

Yes - the Great Commission was a et of instructions given to the leaders of His Church - NOT to the crowds in general.

mart 28:19 is only to Peter the apostles and their successors then they are commanded to teach the people

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

————————-

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

We are not commanded to read and make doctrine for ourselves but obey those who God puts in authority.

 

[theefaith]

Are the Apostles alive today? If not why then could Jesus say He will be with them "even to the end of the world"?

As I've alluded to in the past, you and the CC truly do not have the knowledge and understanding of Scripture!

The authority set forth in Mt. 28 which we call the Great Commission were given to all believers and not only to the Apostles of Jesus' day.

DO YOU AND THE CC EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE WORD OF GOD THE WAY ITS' INTENTED?

No you don't! Because you have a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Your authority is not God but your church.

WHY? Because you believe that the pillar and ground of truth is the church (your church).

Unbeknown to you Jesus said "...I am the way, the truth, and the life..."

Who do you think is telling the truth? (oops pardon the pun)

You are in the market place, you and your church are teaching heresy!

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

To God Be The Glory

a different gospel yes the original gospel, and if there’s another that came about in the 16 century it is the false gospel

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

established on Peter, the apostles and their successors!

 

[theefaith]

Again, the apostles are to baptize "in the name of" the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Their authority is inalienable.

so you don’t know what Christ commanded the apostles, hmm

 

[CadyandZoe]

so you don’t know what Christ commanded the apostles, hmm

It's called the New Testament.

 

[WaterSong]

Hi watersong,

I agree with you. My Church did change the Sabbath. I don't think I ever disagreed with you on that.

The very first concrete evidence we have of the men of my Church acknowledging that the Sabbath had been changed from Saturday to Sunday was in a writing by a student of the Apostle John. He was one of the first Bishops in my Church. It was Ignatius, surnamed Theophoros, who was bishop of Antioch in the 1st century. He wrote: “[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death”

Would you care to share the earliest writings from the leaders of your Church showing they practiced The Lords Day on Saturday????

God bless....Patient Mary

Hi, and may God Bless you as well.
No, but thank you for the kind offer to show where the Christian church, non-RCC, practiced the Sabbath on Saturday. I'm aware the early church honored the Sabbath day as prescribed by God. Because the Apostles that proselytized also observed Sabbath and as such would have informed those who converted to the faith of that Sabbath day.
The very first Christians were Jews. In Judaism they would have been considered Apostate. Which is why we read of Saul of Tarsus seeking out those Jews for punishment.

 

[theefaith]

The sabbath day observation is part of the ceremonial law fulfilled by Christ nailed to the cross
It’s of not only the mosaic covenant but of the first creation

we are a new covenant and a new creation in Christ who makes all including the sabbath things new
Neither Jew nor Greek all are one in Christ!

 

[WaterSong]

Yup, Jesus and the Apostles practiced the Sabbath. Did you know they were Jews???? That is what the Jews did kiddo!!

Show me in Scripture where all the apostles continued to practice the Saturday worship after He ascended.

Yes, your leader John Knox. You prefer the writings of a 16th century man. I prefer the writings of a man who was a student of the Apostle John:

My leader is God.
As I said before, I do not follow any teachings of John Knoxx.
Here's a question. Why would the Apostles abandon Sabbath day after Jesus ascended? They were told by Jesus, if you love me keep my commands.
Where in the Bible do we read the Apostles keep Sabbath after Jesus ascended?
Two book examples should suffice. Acts 2 and Acts 13.
When did the Christian church switch the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

Ignatius of Antioch

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

I prefer the writings of men who lived at the time of Christ:

Do you? Interesting in that the new testament books, save for those attributed to Saul, were all anonymous. The earliest book is,P. Oxy. 3523(also referred to as P90). What we'd call the Gospel of John. The second oldest is P. Oxy. 4404 (also referred to as P104) , the Gospel of Matthew.

The Didache

“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Didache was allegedly written in 1st century but was rejected by the church as not an inspired text. Which is why it was not added to the Canon. As all else after this entry pertains to the Didache, I have omitted it to save room.

PS-The rest of your post rambles on about baptism, purgatory etc. blah blah blah. Since those matters are off the subject we are talking about I digress.

Rambles on? LOL Actually it is relevant to the topic at hand when we're referring to what the RCC changed about the actual teachings of Christ, his Apostles, and the practices of the early church. Which was largely comprised of converted Jews.
As Gentiles became more populace in the faith the Sabbath day came to be practiced on Sunday rather than the original Saturday date.

However, as many know, there are Christians who still hold to the original Sabbath day. And for doing this they're very often chastised by those who do not.

 

[WaterSong]

You failed to provide evidence for YOUR Sabbatarian "truth" but lil' ol Marymog is running away because she can't handle the truth????? That makes no sense....

Its a very simple request: Show me a single passage in Scripture where Jesus said that Christians are to gather on Saturday. You failed!!!

God Bless...mary

Well, lets see. Jesus was a Jew who honored the Sabbath. As did his Apostles and even after he ascended. If one knows the Hebrew Calendar they know the Sabbath was on Saturday.

At least you acknowledge the RCC changed Sabbath day from Saturday unto Sunday.Blasphemy of the highest order given God ordained the day of rest to be on the 7th day. The seventh day in the Hebrew Sabbath tradition is Saturday. Jews count days from sunset to sunset.
You think Sabbath day is not on Saturday because "Saturday" is not spelled out in scripture. (Nor is Trinity). However, being Jesus came to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, every Jew who listened to his sermons would already know, Sabbath rest is Saturday.
Does Saturday have to be written in scripture for you to believe?
That God ordained Sabbath day of rest in the old testament, and Saturday is that day per the Jews from the beginning, should be enough. Sunday is the first day of the week per the Hebrew calendar.
Do the research and find out for yourself. Information tends to reach people if they seek it on their own out of a desire to know. Whereas having no respect for someone who tells you these truths will lead to dismissal of the relevant and true information under discussion.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Edited = missing word.

 

[ReChoired]

Christians don't "know" where we are going when they die and Scripture teaches nothing unclean (with sin) will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27). Based on those facts how could I possibly 'know of anyone who died that I might think is right now in 'purgatory''?

Ok. Thank you. I do hope you will further explain yourself and belief, since you seem to think I know nothing of "Catholic" doctrine by implication. This is now your opportunity to teach. I am listening.

Since you, as a "Catholic" "don't "know"" (sic) where you are going when you die, or for that matter, where others go when they die, then, how can you, as a "Catholic" possibly pray 'to' those whom you, as a "Catholic", accept as being in "Catholic" "Heaven"? You "know" they are there?

How can you, as a "Catholic", pray "for" anyone whom you might "think" is in "Catholic" "purgatory", when all of them just might be in "Catholic" "hell" (which then prayers are unavailing even accord to "Catholic" standards), or those whom you, as a "Catholic", accept as being in "Catholic" "Heaven", might actually still be in "Catholic" "purgatory", yes? You "know" they are not there?

If "Catholic" "purgatory" actually exists (I don't believe that it does based upon Scripture (KJB), but let's assume a minute), and there are actual "souls" therein, How do you, as a "Catholic", know when to cease praying "for" such "souls", when if they are 'released' and enter "Catholic" "Heaven", what would such prayers do for them, and how would you "know" if they are released?

In matters of the "Catholic" doctrine of "the communion of the saints", can a living "Catholic" pray "to" a "soul" in "Catholic" "purgatory", and if not, why not? What is the difference, between praying "to" a "soul" in "Catholic" "Heaven", and "Catholic" "purgatory"? Surely, some "souls" in "Catholic" "purgatory" are closer to the "Beatific vision" than yourself, as a "Catholic" on earth, and would therefore, have some "merit" to share, yes? Again, if not, why not? Does the "merit", only get tabulated, once the "soul" enters "Catholic" "Heaven", and then becomes available?

Thank you for taking the time to address these. If you truly think I do not understand "Catholic" doctrine, then please take this as an opportunity to teach and correct. Thank you. Feel free to use "Catholic" scripture in your replies.

 

[ReChoired]

it’s a common heresy that the Bible alone is the only or ultimate authority,
But the authority is Christ established on Peter, the apostles, and their successors

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Where did you get that 'authority' from that you are speaking about, that "Christ established on Peter, the apostles, and their successors"?

 

[ReChoired]

I agree with you that my Church changed the Sabbath....at least we agree on something

Ok, at least we know which sides we are on. Thank you for being clear.

 

[ReChoired]

This dogmatic statement is not in the Bible. God gave His authority to the church He established. The anti-church, anti-institution mentality does violence to Scripture and all of Christian history.

I can agree with this statement. There is indeed 'order', 'structure' and even 'authority' as established by Jesus Christ in His church body. I agree that the Bible (KJB) doesn't teach a 'Rambo', 'every man for himself'' mentality. The scripture is not, as you rightly say, "anti-church", neither "anti-institution" (meaning as a formal "body", generally visible in the world), it is pro "communion", or pro "gathering together".

 

[ReChoired]

Would you care to share the earliest writings from the leaders of your Church showing they practiced The Lords Day on Saturday????

Revelation 1:10 (though "Saturday" is a misidentification, with "Sabbath" being the correct, and Bible, word). This was covered previously.

That is earlier than all the other extra-scriptural sources cited thus far on "the Lord's day".

 

[ReChoired]

Scripture says The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church has the authority to decide who is going to be treated as a pagan or tax collector if they don't accept what The Church teaches. Example: The Churches decision at the Council of Jerusalem was binding on all Christians. Who am I to decide what doctrine is binding and what is not binding? It is The Church that decides what is binding....Mathew 18:18....not me! Not you. Not Calvin or Luther!

Oh, I agree with that, with all I am. Good example. Rightly said. Yet, if I might add a thought? In Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem, there were four things given:

[1] much disputing by the Apostles and elders who were gathered together to discuss the questions/issues at hand (Acts 15:6-7)

[2] Testimony of Peter (Acts 15:7-11), as connected with actual confirmed (multiple testimonies, Acts 10 & 11) miracles with conversion/repentance (Holy Ghost) In other words, to settle the matter, it was not a decision of men that simply agreed, but that the Holy Ghost deciding for them before hand, and they simply followed the direction of the Person/Being that was sent in the place of Christ Jesus (Acts 2:1-4,33, Psalms 133:1-3; Revelation 5:6; &c). In other words, Peter simply had to agree, "Amen",with what God, was already doing. It is written that Peter said, "God ... put no difference between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles) ..." God is always the originator of Good, the First Mover, the First Cause. Man's part is to simply "Amen" (second) God.

[3] Testimony of Paul & Barnabas (Acts 15:12), as connected with actual confirmed miracles in association with conversion/repentance (Holy Ghost) The same goes for Paul and Barnabas' experience, when it is written that it was said, "... miracles and wonders God had wrought ...". Again, we see God as being the original and primary 'actor' (one who is doing something, acts, which is the real title of the book of Acts, the "Acts of God" through men).

[4] James, giving opinion (Acts 15:13-21), based up citing OT scripture (Amos, &c), as foundation or basis, as inspired of the Holy Ghost.​

A decision could not be solidified, until first it was established that it was "God" which chose, that it was "God" that testified, that it was "God" who already promised as found in God's word. The gathering at Jerusalem, was actually, and merely to study the matter, and to "Amen" what God was already doing (even when they hadn't fully understood up to that point). They had to understand what God was doing first, then they could follow after. In other words, they needed to understand what the "Head" (Jesus Christ) was doing, and the direction He wanted the "body" to go. The Head, in Heaven, was communicating to the body, on earth, by the Holy Ghost, what to do, and how to do it.

 

[Brakelite]

So what we have here, and attested to by everyone, are two distinct groups of believers. I say attested to by everyone because we have a consensus on what is the basis for belief for both groups. The one, Catholicism, holds tradition to be more important than scripture, because by their own admission they agree that through what they believe is the authority of the church, they changed the actual Commandments of God and the practice of the early church by transferring the sacredness from the 7th day Sabbath to the traditional first day Sunday.
The other, true Protestantism, (and I say true Protestantism because much of what is called "protestantism' actually still cleaves to this unbiblical Catholic tradition rather than scripture) holds the scriptures to be the basis for faith and practice and not any tradition that would contradict scripture.

So wherein shall we find safety when considering the actual words of Christ? When He says, "if ye love Me, keep My commandments", to whom do we turn for counsel? Do we simply take Jesus at His word? Or do we take the word of that church which believes it has the authority to change the very Commandments that Jesus Himself gave on Mount Sinai?

What is even more revealing, even staggering, is not only does the Catholic Church admit to changing the Commandment, agreed to by Catholics on this forum, and evidenced in all Catholic catechisms, but the church claims that change as evidence of that authority. They claim it as a mark of her authority. Because so many have agreed to the change (including non Catholics, even Protestants, Jews and Muslims,) and practice it's observance, such universal acceptance of a Catholic mandated tradition is seen by Catholics as proof that she had such authority because even others accept her authority in spiritual matters.

Except of course for those that don't. And not just Seventh day Adventist. Seventh day Baptists, among numerous others, also believe scripture as the basis for faith and practice.
So. What to do with those who reject papal authority in this matter? Shall we delve into history to discover what Sunday keeping churches did to Sabbath observers? No, better not. Rather distasteful.

 

[ReChoired]

the church claims that change as evidence of that authority.

Which is entirely circular, based upon unfounded aprioristic belief/practice.

 

[Marymog]

Hi, and may God Bless you as well.
No, but thank you for the kind offer to show where the Christian church, non-RCC, practiced the Sabbath on Saturday. I'm aware the early church honored the Sabbath day as prescribed by God. Because the Apostles that proselytized also observed Sabbath and as such would have informed those who converted to the faith of that Sabbath day.
The very first Christians were Jews. In Judaism they would have been considered Apostate. Which is why we read of Saul of Tarsus seeking out those Jews for punishment.

Good morining WS,

Ummmm....I didn't show you where they "practiced the Sabbath on Saturday" I showed you opposite sooooooo I don't know what you are talking about!!!!

And the person I quoted, Ignatius of Antioch, adhered to Sunday.....just like The Church does. Ignatius also believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist AND no salvation outside The Church etc etc.....He was Catholic that is why he is quoted by The Church alllll the time!!! That is why you are scared of him because a man that was taught by an Apostle does not teach what your 16th century Reformers taught.

I asked you to "share the earliest writings from the leaders of your Church showing they practiced The Lords Day on Saturday" You failed.

I thought Saul sought out Christians for punishment.....not Jews?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

My leader is God.
As I said before, I do not follow any teachings of John Knoxx.....

John Knox taught Saturday worship for Christians. Soooooo are you telling me that you don't follow that teaching?

Well, I am confused now....I thought you were defending Saturday (not Sunday) as the Christian Sabbath....