Where does the Bible say...

[Mungo]

Sisters and brothers in Christ please also be aware in this discussion that the Catholic Tradition also denies Salvation by grace alone. One of the Five Solas the Council of Trent decreed Anathema! Faith alone is another that is decreed anathema!

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
(Maybe consider this when reading the bold part of my reply below and the church account of the authority of the Bible. If the Bible is what they say it is, how can they say faith alone, grace alone, are accursed? Add them together and they are not? Grace through faith, faith through grace?)
The Old Testament books were written for Jews, the New Testament books for people who already were Christians.

“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).



I don't believe it can be said you know of what you speak.


Catholic.org
Encyclopedia
Anathema
(Greek anathema -- literally, placed on high, suspended, set aside).
"..."To understand the word anathema", says Vigouroux, "we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of." " (Continues)



DECLARATIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

FOURTH SESSION: DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES: "If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts [the 66 books of the Bible plus 12 apocryphal books, being two of Paralipomenon, two of Esdras, Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Sophonias, two of Macabees], as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA."


PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE STUDY OF HOLY SCRIPTURE
Excerpted:
"....13. At the commencement of a course of Holy Scripture let the Professor strive earnestly to form the judgment of the young beginners so as to train them equally to defend the sacred writings and to penetrate their meaning. This is the object of the treatise which is called "Introduction." Here the student is taught how to prove the integrity and authority of the Bible, how to investigate and ascertain its true sense, and how to meet and refute objections. It is needless to insist upon the importance of making these preliminary studies in an orderly and thorough fashion, with the accompaniment and assistance of Theology; for the whole subsequent course must rest on the foundation thus laid and make use of the light thus acquired. Next, the teacher will turn his earnest attention to that more fruitful division of Scripture science which has to do with Interpretation; wherein is imparted the method of using the word of God for the advantage of religion and piety. We recognize without hesitation that neither the extent of the matter nor the time at disposal allows each single Book of the Bible to be separately gone through. But the teaching should result in a definite and ascertained method of interpretation-and therefore the Professor should equally avoid the mistake of giving a mere taste of every Book, and of dwelling at too great length on a part of one Book. If most schools cannot do what is done in the large institutions-that is, take the students through the whole of one or two Books continuously and with a certain development-yet at least those parts which are selected should be treated with suitable fulness; in such a way that the students may learn from the sample that is thus put before them to love and use the remainder of the sacred Book during the whole of their lives. The Professor, following the tradition of antiquity, will make use of the Vulgate as his text; for the Council of Trent decreed that "in public lectures, disputations, preaching, and exposition,"(29) the Vulgate is the "authentic" version; and this is the existing custom of the Church. At the same time, the other versions which Christian antiquity has approved, should not be neglected, more especially the more ancient MSS. For although the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek is substantially rendered by the Vulgate, nevertheless wherever there may be ambiguity or want of clearness, the "examination of older tongues,"(30) to quote St. Augustine, will be useful and advantageous. But in this matter we need hardly say that the greatest prudence is required, for the "office of a commentator," as St. Jerome says, "is to set forth not what he himself would prefer, but what his author says."(31) The question of "readings" having been, when necessary, carefully discussed, the next thing is to investigate and expound the meaning. And the first counsel to be given is this: That the more our adversaries contend to the contrary, so much the more solicitously should we adhere to the received and approved canons of interpretation. Hence, whilst weighing the meanings of words, the connection of ideas, the parallelism of passages, and the like, we should by all means make use of such illustrations as can be drawn from apposite erudition of an external sort; but this should be done with caution, so as not to bestow on questions of this kind more labour and time than are spent on the Sacred Books themselves, and not to overload the minds of the students with a mass of information that will be rather a hindrance than a help." (Continues at link)

The anathemas at the Council of Trent (or any anathemas) are a form of words that express the seriousness of a formal statement of belief. They originally were a form of excommunication for persistent denial of a dogmatically defined belief. By the time of Gregory IX (1370–1378) they were a formal excommunication by the Pope personally. They were very rare but the term remained until finally abolished in the 1983 code of Canon Law. So they do not exist any more.

They never destined anyone to hell. That is a decision for God alone. Nor are they a curse.

Matt Slick (of C.A.R.M.) is a virulently anti-Catholic but even he understand this. I quote from him:
"So, when official Roman Catholic documents pronounce anathema it means that the person is not in right standing with their church, is not to take the sacraments, and might be under discipline. It is an excommunication and at the very least a very strong condemnation of the person's actions and/or beliefs as being against the Catholic Church."

I don't believe it can be said you know of what you speak.

Then you do not understand what authority is.

 

[theefaith]

I see the move you made there. I agree, it's a question of final authority. Good point.

I don't mind being baited into a debate but I would like some honest answers from the other side. And in these dark times, the more important question than authority is trust. Who do I trust and what do I really want?

Why do I trust the Bible? Because it speaks truthfully about me specifically and the human race in general. When I arrive at an accurate and honest assessment of myself, and I compare that with what the Bible says about me, I find complete correspondence. I am a sinner in need of salvation. And since I have come to trust the Bible, I have come to trust the one known as the Savior, Jesus Christ.

I see the move you made there. I agree, it's a question of final authority. Good point.

I don't mind being baited into a debate but I would like some honest answers from the other side. And in these dark times, the more important question than authority is trust. Who do I trust and what do I really want?

Why do I trust the Bible? Because it speaks truthfully about me specifically and the human race in general. When I arrive at an accurate and honest assessment of myself, and I compare that with what the Bible says about me, I find complete correspondence. I am a sinner in need of salvation. And since I have come to trust the Bible, I have come to trust the one known as the Savior, Jesus Christ.

but you don’t believe Him or you don’t trust Him enough to obey Him!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

 

[theefaith]

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 14:26

If we even only one time read a scripture verse, the Holy Spirit WILL "bring ALL to our remembrance".
There were those who, immediately came into the Church at it's inception, who skewed and twisted scriptures so, so much for the "early fathers". I believe the Apostolic succession stopped with the death of the last apostle of Christ. We now have the Comforter to teach us and guide us in ALL things.
Their oh so very many false teachings out there and I prefer to filter all things through the living and active Word of God

the guarantee of HS is to the church and the apostles not you, then they are to teach you!



Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

————————-

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

We are not commanded to read and make doctrine for ourselves but obey those who God puts in authority.

 

[theefaith]

At this point I think what may help my sisters and brothers in encountering posts by BoL and theefaith is that they adhere to the declaration, the finding, by the Council of Trent. Which decreed anyone who holds to any or all of the five Solas, including Sola Scriptura, are cursed (anathema)! ~The Council of Trent - Session 6~

It is fear of the curse that causes Catholics to hold to the CoT's finding in all matters.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven.

God's command in Deuteronomy does not have an expiration date. What Does the Bible Say About Dont Change Gods Word?
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 4 - New American Standard Bible

2 Peter 1:20-21
Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Is 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

 

[Mungo]

Interesting. I noticed this phrase...without an authority other than that of the Bible... Wouldn't it be more accurate, and honest, to say over the Bible as opposed to other than the Bible? After all, is the church not claiming to be sole arbiter as to how the Bible ought to be interpreted? Does that not mean the church has the final say on what is or is not, Truth?
You might understand this better than I, but is not the USSC the final authority on matters of interpretation of law in the land? Would that not make the magisterium an apt parallel? And the Pope equivalent to the President as having power of veto...I think?

I've said this before - the Bible has no authority. It is authoritative, meaning true and reliable.

Authority belongs to a person not a book.
Before he ascended to heaven Jesus said to the apostles “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20).
Jesus was given authority by the Father. He in turn passed on authority to the apostles, who passed it on to others in their turn.

 

[Mungo]

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Let me put it like this. Catholics do not call their proiests father. They address them as father, jsut as the

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Is 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

All good points as the why this use of Mt 23:9 to beat the Catholic Church is a rotten stick.

But there is another reason. It is a classic case of the logical fallacy of equivocation.
Let me put it this way. Catholics do not "call" their priests father but they address them as father, as in your examples.

 

[ReChoired]

"... The Bible had been committed to the care of the living magisterium. ...", and thus as it is "committed to the care of the living magisterium", the 'dead-letter' of the "Bible" is subject to it.

"It is the Church, the holder of Tradition, that gives life to the dead letter of Scripture. Experience shows that it is only in the life of the Church, the Bride of Christ, that Scripture, divinely inspired as it is, becomes 'living and effectual, and more piercing than any two-edged sword' (Heb 4:12 )" - A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, 1951 (pg 2) with imprimatur and acknowledgment of Pope Pius XII - A Catholic Commentary On Holy Scripture : Orchard, Dom Bernard Ed And Others : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Or here: A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture

"... The Scripture indeed is a divine book but it is a dead letter, which has to be explained, and cannot exercise the action which the preacher can obtain. ..." [Our Priesthood, page 142] - Our priesthood : Bruneau, Joseph, 1866-1933 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

"... A dead and speechless book. ..." [Question Box, 1913 edition, page 67]

"... The simple fact is that the Bible, like all dead letters, calls for a living interpreter."-The Faith of Millions, p. 147 - The Faith of Millions​

"... it was for her [Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church] to supply the key by explaining why and how it had been inspired, how it contained Revelation ..."​

"... It was for the Church in consequence to determine the authentic canon, to specify the special rules and conditions for interpretation, to pronounce in case of doubt as to the exact sense of a given book or text, and even when necessary to safeguard the historical, prophetical, or apologetic value of a given text or passage, to pronounce in certain questions of authenticity, chronology, exegesis, or translation, either to reject an opinion compromising the authority of the book or the veracity of its doctrine or to maintain a given body of revealed truth contained in a given text. It was above all for the Church to circulate the Divine Book by minting its doctrine, adapting and explaining it, by offering it and drawing from it nourishment wherewith to nourish souls, briefly by supplementing the book, making use of it, and assisting others to make use of it. This is the debt of Scripture to the living magisterium. ... (and then produces a circular argument right following) ...

... There is a formula current in Christian teaching (and the formula is borrowed from St. Paul himself) that traditional truth was confided to the Church as a deposit which it would guard and faithfully transmit as it had received it without adding to it or taking anything away. This formula expresses very well one of the aspects of tradition and one of the principal rôles of the living magisterium. ...

... There is between written documents and the living magisterium of the Church a relation similar, proportionately speaking, to that already outlined between Scripture and the living magisterium. ..." - Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, "T", Tradition and Living Magisterium - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium​

More on the Magisterium:

"... Now in the matter of Sabbath observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sunday for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Saturday should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an important matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Commandments of God. There is no authority in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week. For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. "All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you," said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. "He that heareth you heareth Me." We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God. ..."(1.)

(1.) The Catholic Record of London, Saturday, September 1st, 1923 edition, Ontario, Canada, Volume XLV, #2342, appearing on page 4, section "Sabbath Observance", Column 2, -- Editor -- Rev. James T. Foley, D.D. ... The CATHOLIC RECORD has been approved and recommended by Archbishops Falconio and Sbaretti, late Apostolic Delegates to Canada, the Archbishops of Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, and St. Boniface, the Bishops of London, Hamilton, Peterborough and Ogdensburg, N.Y., and the Clergy throughout the Dominion.", Column 1 - The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.
​

See, they say over and over again that, "The Church (Roman Catholic) is above the Bible."

 

[CadyandZoe]

but you don’t believe Him or you don’t trust Him enough to obey Him!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I've said this before - the Bible has no authority. It is authoritative, meaning true and reliable.

Authority belongs to a person not a book.
Before he ascended to heaven Jesus said to the apostles “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20).
Jesus was given authority by the Father. He in turn passed on authority to the apostles, who passed it on to others in their turn.

Negative. Jesus commanded to baptize in his name, which indicates that the authority didn't transfer to his apostles or anyone else.

 

[Mungo]

.

More on the Magisterium:

"... Now in the matter of Sabbath observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sunday for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Saturday should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an important matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Commandments of God. There is no authority in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week. For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. "All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you," said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. "He that heareth you heareth Me." We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God. ..."(1.)

(1.) The Catholic Record of London, Saturday, September 1st, 1923 edition, Ontario, Canada, Volume XLV, #2342, appearing on page 4, section "Sabbath Observance", Column 2, -- Editor -- Rev. James T. Foley, D.D. ... The CATHOLIC RECORD has been approved and recommended by Archbishops Falconio and Sbaretti, late Apostolic Delegates to Canada, the Archbishops of Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, and St. Boniface, the Bishops of London, Hamilton, Peterborough and Ogdensburg, N.Y., and the Clergy throughout the Dominion.", Column 1 - The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.
​

See, they say over and over again that, "The Church (Roman Catholic) is above the Bible."

1, It doesn't say what you claim.

2.The Catechism of The Catholic Church is more authoritative than any document produced by a Bishops Conference. The Catechism clearly states:
"Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it" (Catechism of The Catholic Church, para 86) - my emboldening.

 

[Mungo]

Negative. Jesus commanded to baptize in his name, which indicates that the authority didn't transfer to his apostles or anyone else.

If you give someone a job, a mission, in this case "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" then you give them the authority to necessary to carry out that mission. It's implicit in the command.

In Luke 9:1-6 and Luke 10:1-6 Jesus enunciates these two principles with the disciples he send out on mission.
He summoned the Twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal (the sick).(Lk 9:1-2)

He gives them authority to act and authority to speak in his name. And he sums this up in verse 16 - Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

That is a universal principle when Jesus gives someone a task, a mission, an office under his authority.

Thus when Jesus sends the apostles out on the great mission with the great commission in Mt 28:19-20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. He gives the apostles the authority to act and to speak in his name, and the "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." applies to them.

 

[JunChosen]

does peter the apostles and their successors have authority to bind on earth and it be bound in heaven?

Matthew 16:18-19 has always been misunderstood by the CC and many in Christendom as well.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (Psa. 18:31), I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (words in parenthesis are mine)

How did Jesus built and prepare His Church that the gates of hell cannot prevail? BY GOING TO THE CROSS of course! DID PETER AND ANY OF THE APOSTLES DID LIKEWISE AS JESUS? NO!

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The term "whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" and the term "whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" These should be read and rendered this way:

"Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall having been bound in heaven," and "whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall having been loosed in heaven."

THE PRIOR ACTION IS IN HEAVEN, you see!!!

We can't see this in our English language but find anyone who can read and understand Hebrew and let him explain Matthew 16:19.

To God Be The Glory

 

[WaterSong]

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Is 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven.
Try as you may, you will not succeed in thinking Jesus made a mistake in that verse, didn't really mean it, etc... God can call anyone anything he likes. I feel sorry for you that you think you are able to dismiss Jesus order there.

 

[WaterSong]

The anathemas at the Council of Trent (or any anathemas) are a form of words that express the seriousness of a formal statement of belief. They originally were a form of excommunication for persistent denial of a dogmatically defined belief. By the time of Gregory IX (1370–1378) they were a formal excommunication by the Pope personally. They were very rare but the term remained until finally abolished in the 1983 code of Canon Law. So they do not exist any more.

They never destined anyone to hell. That is a decision for God alone. Nor are they a curse.

Matt Slick (of C.A.R.M.) is a virulently anti-Catholic but even he understand this. I quote from him:
"So, when official Roman Catholic documents pronounce anathema it means that the person is not in right standing with their church, is not to take the sacraments, and might be under discipline. It is an excommunication and at the very least a very strong condemnation of the person's actions and/or beliefs as being against the Catholic Church."

Nothing I posted is sourced from Matt Slick. I linked my sources where sources were necessary. They were all Catholic.
Oh, and just for the record, I'm married to a RC.
Again, you appear to not know of what you speak.

Then you do not understand what authority is.

I know what Hubris is. And if you think you are authority in the RCC you're mistaken.

 

[WaterSong]

does peter the apostles and their successors have authority to bind on earth and it be bound in heaven?

Matthew 18:18
“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The church? Is the body of faithful, all individual holy spirit filled reborn in Christ believers. Not the edifice constructed in Rome and atop a former pagan graveyard and with its idols strewn about.
Source: "...The Catholic Church as an institution has the final say on how the Bible is to be interpreted, and the Catholic faith is also based on Church rulings, traditions, writings and teachings."[end excerpt]
Catholic Catechism paragraph96-97
"What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory. ‘Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God’ (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.."


Whereas God says in 2nd Timothy 3:15 "From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work."

 

[WaterSong]

I see the move you made there. I agree, it's a question of final authority. Good point.

I don't mind being baited into a debate but I would like some honest answers from the other side. And in these dark times, the more important question than authority is trust. Who do I trust and what do I really want?

Why do I trust the Bible? Because it speaks truthfully about me specifically and the human race in general. When I arrive at an accurate and honest assessment of myself, and I compare that with what the Bible says about me, I find complete correspondence. I am a sinner in need of salvation. And since I have come to trust the Bible, I have come to trust the one known as the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Well said.

 

[WaterSong]

You don't want to discuss anything, you are just looking for a fight. I love that ignore button.

I wish you the best in trying to live up to the hope you have in holding to the tenets in your signature.
You love the ignore button. That must serve you well when you admit you are unwilling to participate in a discussion. Ignoring those who do not see things your way is the act of avarice and hubris and pride. As long as you are able to ignore what may be truth that counters your false beliefs you'll believe yourself absolutely right all the time. "Illuminator", then becomes an oxymoron.
You have my deepest sympathy.

 

[WaterSong]

Interesting. I noticed this phrase...without an authority other than that of the Bible... Wouldn't it be more accurate, and honest, to say over the Bible as opposed to other than the Bible? After all, is the church not claiming to be sole arbiter as to how the Bible ought to be interpreted? Does that not mean the church has the final say on what is or is not, Truth?
You might understand this better than I, but is not the USSC the final authority on matters of interpretation of law in the land? Would that not make the magisterium an apt parallel? And the Pope equivalent to the President as having power of veto...I think?

True. The Pope, being infallible, is the final authority on church dogma.
The RCC conflates RCC tradition and scripture in all its works.

Catechism-
Ecclesiastical.

1. an elementary book containing a summary of the principles of the Christian religion, especially as maintained by a particular church, in the form of questions and answers.

Basic Tenets of Catholicism
"....What God has revealed through Scripture and Sacred Catholic Tradition (what Christ taught to the Apostles) has been reliably written & handed down to us through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. (96 & 97)"

Beyond the link in that excerpt but linked elsewhere in the full article itself. If you have a search feature on your browser, or just press CTRL & F to bring up the "Find" feature, search "Scripture". (You won't find "Bible" in this writing linked below.)
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965

 

[BreadOfLife]

I gave you the opportunity to correct your explanation but in your pride and arrogance you doubled down on your Catholic deceit. Jesus criticised the traditions of the Pharisees , not because they weren't sacred, an interpolation of your own making, but because they contradicted God's explicit commandments. His written law on the tables of stone. This is what Catholicism had done, and what Protestants in their numb obedience to Rome, practices.
Now you're going to try and convince everyone that God appeared to the early Roman church saying, "thus sayeth the Lord to the early church..."hi guys, hey. Tell yuh what. You know that pesky Sabbath Commandment everyone has issues with, well, I've been thinking. I know I wrote it on stone, and sure, it was meant to be permanent but seeing as how you fellas are having so much trouble with it, I've changed my mind and decided if you just spend half an hour or an hour or so in a building singing a few songs and having a good time, that'll be enough. Oh, and yeah, change it to whatever day you think is appropriate and that'll be good enough for me. Okay? All good. Later!". ..And so began a "sacred" tradition that cast side a Commandment and replaced that horrid legalistic miserable Jewish tradition with a happy tradition.

Well, this Sabbath keeping Christian ain't buying it.

So ALL of this boils down to Sabbatarianism for you. Why didn't you say so?

So, you're one of those gullible SDAs who's been poisoned by that anti-Catholic false prophet and colossal nitwit, Ellen White.
Granted, in the Kingdom of the Cults, SDAs aren't as bad as some of the others - but you're no less gullible . . .

Apparently, you don't understand the PURPOSE of the LAW - OR it's fulfillment. JESUS is the fulfillment of the Law and His CHURCH is the fulfillment of Judaism. When the Pharisees, who were rigid Sabbatarians like YOU, condemned Jesus and the Apostles for picking grain on the Sabbath - He rebuked them by saying:
Mark 2:27
The Sabbath was made for MAN - NOT man for the Sabbath.

Later, He gave His Church SUPREME earthly Authority - that WHATEVER it proclaimed on earth would also be proclaimed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23) and told them that the Holy spirit would guide His Church to ALL TRUTH (John 15:12-15). Apparently - YOU and Ellen G. White didn't get the memo . . .

That SAME Authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, proclaimed that the Lord's Day would be commemorated on the day of the Lord's Resurrection.

As for your Popess and founder, E.G. White - remember, all it takes is ONE false prophecy for a person to be a FALSE Prophet . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wait? Wha'???

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?​

Ahhh - so YOU sacrifice bulls and goats for sin reparation?
You keep kosher and adhere to all of the dietary Laws?
Do you keep all of the cleanliness Laws?
Do you observe the Sabbath and all of the festivals and high holy days?

According to YOUR logic - unless you DO these things - you are violating the principle of Sola Scriptura.
Do you see how asinine and hypocritical this is?