Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Adrift]

Hello Adrift,

How do you fulfill Hebrews 13:17?

First, I try to identify who the real leaders are.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, not quite. According to you I was at least half right. You haven't quoted any popes from the first 5 centuries or so quoting Matthew in support of succession, papal primacy etc.
And your early church influencers had issues. Not only did they disagree with each other on some issues, they also disagreed with the church. And Tertullian, wow. One winners why anyone would listen to him regarding any topic after hearing his views on sexuality and marriage.
So, while I admit that yes, they referenced Matthew 16 in their view of apostolic succession, from what I read of their views that did not necessarily mean the one church centred in Rome, with one person as spokesman, had complete authority in spiritual matters over other churches, and certainly not over individuals.
And Tertullian's interest in the Montanists tells me he would agree with me concerning the downhill spiral even in his time that the church was experiencing morally and doctrinally.
So. Where are we? The fact remains that no popes referenced Matthew 16 in support of papal supremacy, and nor did those church fathers you quoted. Sure, they used that verse in support of having authority in deciding doctrine, but none of them actually agreed with the church's concept that such authority gave the church the right to persecute and excommunicate those who happened to disagree with the church. Even Tertullian had some reservations over the church's concept of what the trinity is, as do many today. Does that make me historically bankrupt and everything a say equalling nonsense? Not by a long stretch. But then BoL, you always have been given to hyperbole in denigrating others who you object to.

Absolutely.
As for your erroneous view that the ECFs didn’t consider the Church to be centered in Rone – guess again . . .

Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Martyrs of Lyons
“And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches” (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

Eusebius of Caesarea
Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love” (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

Pope Julius I
“[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. . . . Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here
(Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

 

[Marymog]

Page 650. Peter was like a rolling stone... in one place today and another tomorrow. Also on page 737 we read a piece of rock; not the rock itself, which is Christ. Peter was a piece of a rock, a stone, here today and gone tomorrow.

The word unstable is not on either of those pages.

Thank you for your time.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

First, I try to identify who the real leaders are.

Hebrews 13:17 says obey those (men) who rule over you.

Who rules over you Adrift?

 

[Adrift]

Hebrews 13:17 says obey those (men) who rule over you.

Who rules over you Adrift?

Jesus

 

[Marymog]

Jesus

Nice try Adrift.

Hebrews 13:17 is talking about men of The Church; elders, overseers etc.

None the less.....thank you for your time. Hopefully, someday, you will live your life in fulfillment of Scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

The word unstable is not on either of those pages.

Thank you for your time.

Mary

The concept is the same. I did not feel it was necessary to write the whole page so I gave what the whole page was saying which is Peter blew hot one day and cold the next. I'm sure hot and cold are not on those pages either, but the truth is the same. Christ said to Peter you are a little stone. I will build my church on me. Again, the Catholics have never been right about anything. Christ did not hand off his church to an Apostle. The Catholics will do anything to kill Jesus Christ. They have him either bloody, defeated and dying on a tree, or a little helpless baby, or on vacation as the popes run with their deception.

 

[Peterlag]

Ummmm,. maybe you should ask them . . .

John Calvin – 16th century “Reformer”

Frank E. Gaebelein – Deacon in the Reformed Episcopal Church

John A. Broadus - Ordained Baptist pastor

D. A. Carson – Baptist Professor of Theology

John Peter Lange - German Protestant scholar

J. Knox Chamblin - Presbyterian and New Testament Professor

Craig L. Blomberg - Baptist and Professor of New Testament

And on and on and on . . .

Well, then they are all wrong. Peter was not the first pope. The rock Christ Jesus is the head of the church of God.

 

[Adrift]

Nice try Adrift.

Hebrews 13:17 is talking about men of The Church; elders, overseers etc.

None the less.....thank you for your time. Hopefully, someday, you will live your life in fulfillment of Scripture.

Hopefully I won't become as rude and impolite as you. It is you who should spend more time in scripture. You have apparently dove in so deep that you forgot the basics. I love you nonetheless. Have a great day.

 

[The Learner]

Can YOU explain why you would make such a historically-bankrupt statement?
Everything you claimed is nonsense . . .

Irenaeus
For if the Apostles had known hidden mysteries which they taught to the elite secretly and apart from the rest, they would have handed them down especially to those very ones to whom they were committing the self-same Churches. For surely they wished all those and their successors to be perfect and without reproach, to whom they handed on their authority (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 180-199]).

It is necessary to obey those who are the presbyters in the Church, those who, as we have shown, have succession from the Apostles; those who have received, with the succession of the episcopate, the sure charism of truth according to the good pleasure of the Father. But the rest, who have no part in the primitive succession and assemble wheresoever they will, must be held in suspicion (ibid 4:26:2).

Tertullian
For this is the way in which the apostolic Churches transmit their lists: like the Church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the Church of the Romans where Clement was ordained by Peter. In just this same way the other Churches display those whom they have as sprouts from the apostolic seed, having been established in the episcopate by the Apostles.

Therefore, they will be challenged to meet this test even by those Churches which are of much later date – for they are being established daily – and whose founder is not from among the Apostles nor from among the apostolic men; for those which agree in the same faith are reckoned as apostolic on account of the blood ties in their doctrine. (The Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:1 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
The Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Cyprian
The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Firmilion of Caesarea
. . . when Christ breathed upon the Apostles alone, saying to them; "Receive the Holy Spirit: if you forgive any man his sins, they shall be forgiven; and if you retain any mans sins, they shall be retained." Therefore, the power of forgiving sins was given to the Apostles and to the Churches which these men, sent by Christ, established; and to the bishops who succeeded them by being ordained in their place (Letter to Cyprian 75:16 [A.D. 255-256]).

Ambrose of Milan
Christ made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

 

[The Learner]

Absolutely.
As for your erroneous view that the ECFs didn’t consider the Church to be centered in Rone – guess again . . .

Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Martyrs of Lyons
“And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches” (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

Eusebius of Caesarea
Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love” (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

Pope Julius I
“[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. . . . Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here
(Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

 

[The Learner]

Well, then they are all wrong. Peter was not the first pope. The rock Christ Jesus is the head of the church of God.

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[The Learner]

rth

 

[Brakelite]

Would it matter if any Popes did Brakelite? You would still reject what they wrote....Right?

I get it. The men of the Catholic Church do not fulfill Hebrews 13:17 for YOU. They do for @BreadOfLife and Marymog.

What men in your life fulfills Hebrews 13:17?

Curious Mary

I belong to a denomination to whom I have surrendered allegiance. I will obey and hear my elders so long as they bear witness to the truth as taught in the scriptures. I am allowed freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience and the right to think for oneself is a gift of God and does not preclude being under the authority of others.

 

[Peterlag]

All these Fathers believed Peter was the Rock,

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I don't know if I should laugh or cry. You quote Catholics to me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

First off, I don't count the words. Google docs does that for me.

Second off, it's not an obsession. You are probably only the 3rd person in the 7 years I have been on this forum that I have pointed out the excessive number of words they used to NOT answer a simple yes or no question. The word count is evidence of your bloviating.

Third off, I didn't ask you to explain the bible. I didn't ask you to explain why you believe what you believe. I asked you a very simple yes or no question.

The very fact that you even got Google to count the words for you suggests that the number of words explaining why your assumptions are in error is to divert attention away from the content, which you clearly have not addressed at all.

And finally, YES I have taken note of the content of your posts. See how easy that was? You asked a YES or NO question and I answered it with one word.

So it’s only the simple things that you think you can answer?

You do understand the logic behind the legal questions in courts of law asking for a “yes or no “ answer, don't you? They are are designed for entrapment....there are no “yes or no” answers for Biblical questions that require explanation......you just can’t refute the explanation because you didn’t get your “yes or no” response......very transparent I’m afraid.
My faith requires logically and scripturally sound explanations.....apparently yours is satisfied with much less.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let me see if I understand what's going on here. I ask you a simple YES or NO question. In 2 different responses and almost 1,000 words later you didn't answer the question! I then point out WHAT IS VERY OBVOIOUS and state a VERY COMMON SAYING in the English language in situations like this, that I have to read between the lines of those 1,000 words to find your answer, and you suggest that I am illiterate?????

O dear, now we have a comprehension issue....I did not say that you were illiterate...
I said....”it appears that you are somewhat illiterate with that kind of between the lines reading.”
Would you like me to interpret that statement? Not being “good at reading between the lines” doesn’t make you illiterate.....it simply means that the conclusions you jump into, are muddy puddles. It’s your comprehension skills that seem to be lacking. That is what happens when the lens through which to see things, needs cleaning.

But that is what vituperative, contumelious, invective people do. There is no reading between the lines of that statement.........

Should I consult my dictionary now to find out what these words would actually mean to someone who is obviously trying to show off their literary skills......of not much use if your comprehension skills are lacking.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Sabbath was made for man(kind), and not man for the Sabbath.

And this is supposedly an answer to....”scriptural proof that Adam, Noah, Elijah or Abraham ever observed a weekly Sabbath. Were they not imitating the example of God the Father?”
Aren’t we really talking about feeble attempts at scriptural proof for Catholic beliefs now? Seriously?

The Sabbath in Genesis is not the Jewish Sabbath required under law. It was modeled after the same principle, but both had different meanings.
No servant of God observed a Sabbath before Moses led Israel out of Egypt. Scriptural fact.

You crack me up Jane. Partially quoting Scripture to fit what your men have taught you and leaving out the parts that are 1 verse later that destroys your men's teachings: Col 2:16: So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Well, there is some 'cracking up' going on here as I am constantly amazed at your lack of scriptural knowledge concerning these things.....most especially your comprehension of scripture.

When Paul stated that “Christ was the end of the Law”.....he wasn’t just talking about the Sabbath, but the whole shebang. The Sabbath was only a small part of the Law and not included in the “necessary things” that the Christians as a body of believers from different races, religions and backgrounds, had to observe. (Acts 15:28-29) Christianity was much simpler in its beliefs and practices....concentrating more on love than law. Governed now by the exercise of conscience, not on a written code of conduct and performed rituals, to which many today are still enslaved.

The “not judging” was in relation to Jews not judging their Gentile brothers because they failed to follow Jewish Law. So no circumcision, or Sabbath observance was required of Gentiles because God’s law to Israel applied only to them.
No one was to judge their brother or sister for observance or non-observance, as these things were no longer required for any of Christ’s disciples.....but there was no law against it either, so if Jews, who had observed the Sabbath all their lives wished to continue to do so, that was their personal decision, but it was not to be forced on anyone else.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Paul wrote Colossians 20 years after the crucifixion of Christ. That means for the 20 years prior to him writing that Christians were being judged for the Sabbath day they were keeping, which was Sunday, the Day of the Lord. How do we know it was Sunday Jane? Scripture and historical Christian writings say so.

Since when does the Bible say that Sunday (a day dedicated to Roman sun worship) was a day to honor Christ? The Jewish Sabbath was the 7th day, not the 1st day of the week....so under whose authority did “the church” change the Sabbath law, that did not apply to Christians anyway?
Don’t tell me....let me guess.....

“The Lord’s day” is the greater Sabbath that the apostle John spoke about in his Revelation. He was transported in time to our day.....the time of Christ’s return and the end of this old world system under satan’s control and the restoration of all things in God’s original purpose.
This is why Jesus is called “Lord of the Sabbath”. The rulership of God’s Kingdom with Jesus and his “saints” administering its blessings to redeemed mankind, will see God’s first purpose for the human race fulfilled, so that the 7th day can have its final declaration like all the rest of the creative “days”......Jehovah will again be able to say that everything is “very good”.

I can assure you that not a single writer of the Scriptures was Catholic...and not a single Catholic “saint” will assist Jesus in his Kingdom rulership.

Catholic theology is so far removed from anything Christ taught, that trying to tie in scripture to any of it is a tangled web of deceit. Nothing in Roman Catholic worship has any scriptural basis at all.

Your “historical Christian writings” are Catholic, not Christian.....the words of the early “church fathers” are not scripture for a reason......the catechism is not the Bible......yet, in my experience, many Catholic people do not know the difference......

The flaws in Catholic teachings are so incredibly obvious when you study the Bible and not just theology.....but you’ll never know unless you investigate it for yourself with an open heart and mind.

So how is the word count now?

 

[Brakelite]

First, I try to identify who the real leaders are.

Indeed. Who is teaching scripture and exalting Christ, and who isn't? There are2 principles in the world fighting for supremacy. One is the principle of love, freedom, and mercy as exemplified in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ . The other is the principle of coercion, slander, lies and deceit, as exemplified in the rebellion of Lucifer in heaven, and brought to this world through the fall of Adam. What principle are we following, practising, and what are those leaders aligned with that we trust so much for our spiritual nourishment?