Where In The Faith Are You?

[Episkopos]

Prentis, you are elaborate in your reasoning, but to me it is many times so general that it doesn't contain enough specific related information to understand what you are trying to support.

I'll try to use some of your material in this post to attempt to explain myself and I hope you know it's not to belittle you or exult myself, but for truth's sake.

"Do we really expect the crowd, the majority to get it right"? - It would help if you indicated from what group of people this crowd comes from. The world or the Body? I wouldn't think the Body would be intended here because most who attend church meetings and profess to be Christians truly are Christians and it stands to reason that the world can't get it right, being without God.

"God makes his ways mysterious to see who would seek him out". - The Father's ways concerning His kingdom are not a mystery to the believer for He makes it plain to him in His Word--through the Spirit; "And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without (outside the Body), all these things are done in parables" (Mark 4:11); "I shall show you plainly of the Father" (John 16:25). "His disciples said unto Him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly" (v 29).

"We are not called to just 'believe', but to do the works of faith." - The greatest works of faith have to do, not with miracles but with the "drawing neigh to God" (John 4:8) and the conversion of souls to grace (Jam 4:20), which in itself is miraculous. This the Lord revealed when He said "He that believes on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father" (John 14:12). Whatever greater works our Lord was referring to, will be "greater than these" which He was doing. This is in reference to glorifying the Father, which was His primary reason for all He did and was also in reference to greater numbers of conversions, which was His secondary reason for all He did. Christ knew His Apostles would produce greater numbers than Him. They had more time than He had "because I go unto My Father". "The work of an evangelist" (2 Tim 4:5) was done by emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ and the authority of Scripture, which brought about conversions.

I hope this gives you the idea I am referring to and I'm stopping at this one: "The enemy has many ways of blinding us". We can be assured that self, Satan and society will be relentless in attempts to deceive the believer, but we can also rest assured that it will only be failed attempts, because it is not possible to "deceive the very elect" (Mat 24:24).

We must be careful to not claim to be the elect before the time. Anyone can say...the victors win! But it is the folly of men to assume they are victors before they have finished the race. Let he not boast who puts on the sword as one who takes it off! In other words a man can think he will conquer as he straps on his sword but only after the battle is won can he be sure that he has indeed conquered. Don't count your chickens before they are hatched! ;)

 

[Prentis]

We must be careful to not claim to be the elect before the time. Anyone can say...the victors win! But it is the folly of men to assume they are victors before they have finished the race. Let he not boast who puts on the sword as one who takes it off! In other words a man can think he will conquer as he straps on his sword but only after the battle is won can he be sure that he has indeed conquered. Don't count your chickens before they are hatched! ;)

Exactly!

It is typical of man to look at himself, say 'I am the elect', and thus conclude he is not deceived and what he believes is right. But this is upside down, and the opposite of the attitude a disciple has.

It is the one who says 'Surely it is not me!' who ends up betraying the Lord, and the ones who say 'Lord, is it I?', on these God has mercy. Men think 'this is the church, therefore God's presence is here and he is pleased with it'. A disciple thinks 'God has shown that he is pleased, and has come to dwell with us, therefore we are his people.' The conclusion happens the other way around! Men don't naturally do things the right way. (There is a way that seems right to man...)

And further, we must know that God warns his very church that he will spew them out of his mouth. Pleasing God today does not guarantee he will be pleased tomorrow. Love and goodness is promised to us as long as we continue in his love and goodness. We do not have immunity and we are not more special than another. Rather Paul warns us that if the Jews were cut off for unbelief, the same could happen to us if we do not persevere in the Way.

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi D.F. and God's blessings to your Family! Blessed be God!!

One who is of "the elect" will persevere to the end, therefore, one who does not persevere was never in "the elect". Being an elect is not the result or cause of persevering, but persevering is the effect and evidence of the elect. Elect (cause); persevering (effect).

The deception referred here is to the fact that an "elect" cannot finally be misled from the truth, as is displayed in the text; "false Christs, and false prophets." Remember, nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God" (Rom 8:39).

We can know in this life if we are His because, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16). This Spirit-to-spirit witness of assurance is in reference to this life only, because it will not be an issue in the next for all will be seen and therefore not requiring revelation.

Even if we have the wrong understanding of a non-essential salvation issue, such as works used to retain our place in God, it cannot affect our union with Him. He will eventually reveal this to those who've yet to learn this.

 

[dragonfly]

One who is of "the elect" will persevere to the end, therefore, one who does not persevere was never in "the elect". Being an elect is not the result or cause of persevering, but persevering is the effect and evidence of the elect. Elect (cause); persevering (effect).

This sounds like Calvinistic reasoning. Jesus doesn't say that being 'elect' will mean we cannot be deceived. We only will not be deceived if we cleave to Him, and do not believe the confusing, lying signs and wonders, and reports which we hear. In fact, if there is nothing to beware of, why would He mention it at all. I always find the 'was never in the elect' argument more willing to ignore than accommodate the many different ways scripture details that people can choose to opt out of salvation - just like any of us perseverers-so-far could do at any time.

The deception referred here is to the fact that an "elect" cannot finally be misled from the truth, as is displayed in the text; "false Christs, and false prophets." Remember, nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God" (Rom 8:39).

It's all very well Christ knowing they will be 'false Christs'. I think it's a little different when one is trying to make a decision about how to live.

Nothing shall separate from Christ's love, those who are prepared to go through the list of difficulties Paul details:
Romans 8:Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We live in an era when material poverty is mostly considered a sin... so just how many people will actually carry on as Christians, when faced with this catalogue of losses, remains to be seen.

We can know in this life if we are His because, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16). This Spirit-to-spirit witness of assurance is in reference to this life only, because it will not be an issue in the next for all will be seen and therefore not requiring revelation.

God we will know we're His sons if we behave like His sons.

Even if we have the wrong understanding of a non-essential salvation issue, such as works used to retain our place in God, it cannot affect our union with Him. He will eventually reveal this to those who've yet to learn this.

There is a choice of ways. Whatever we do, we will be serving someone else's agenda.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

The Bible is full of people whose 'walk' is described. God expects us to be living as new creatures, walking in 'the way', visibly.

 

[Axehead]

Wow Axehead, that last paragraph in your post #6 contains all the elements I've been sharing and warrants credit!

You asked, "Is it possible for the Lord to deliver us inwardly from evil and bring us back to a place of innocence and absence of guile?" The "innocence" a believer stands in is not affected by the source (old man) of sin which is in our life. If Christ returned today, all who are His

That is the key, isn't it. "all who are His".

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Notice that Paul implies in this verse and of course lays it out in plain speech in other verses and books in the NT, that it is NOT ENOUGH TO NAME THE NAME OF CHRIST, but one must DEPART FROM INIQUITY.

would be presented to Him as "

a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; that it should be holy and without blemish", because He "gave Himself for it". God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Eph 5: 25, 27; Col 1:13).

I believe God is going to present to His Son a beautiful Bride, without spot and blemish. And I believe God has called many but will only choose (many called, few chosen) those who drew near Him with a whole heart and not just lip service. When you draw near God with a whole heart, your desire is to not make any place in your heart for idols. Your desires are His desires and His desire is for us to DEPART from INIQUITY. Willful sin.

That is what your Bible says, right? "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Just as Enoch (Gen 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) were translated, our spirit has been translated , or redeemed and now we wait for "the redemption of our body" (Rom 8:23).

Axehead, our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been "cleansed from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). We have been transformed; now we are being conformed!

You make it sound like everything is done and all we have to do is wait for our body to be redeemed. There is nothing left to do.

If you don't mind let me demonstrate why I believe there is a walk of holiness and righteousness for the Believer and why we must Abide in Christ.

Christ came to make men righteous.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:

Titus says it in a little different way.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

A confession of righteousness will not make one like Enoch or Elisha. A confession of righteousness does not necessarily make one righteous because FAITH is no substitute for REPENTANCE.

Sin is still sin, whether in the life of a Christian or a non-Christian. Sin is sin and the effects of it are the same. It is the obedience of faith that brings one into righteousness; not until then does one "live unto righteousness".

In seeking a Biblical position let us consider the following: first, there is actual cleansing from sin. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9)

Do you believe there is actual cleansing from sin?

So, we see that there is a cleansing from unrighteousness that does exist. You say, "Axehead, our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been 'cleansed from all unrighteousness'". Be careful what you say NetChap. Does that mean that you have never come to Jesus Christ and confessed your sins and received His cleansing from your unrighteousness?

Since you say we are not being purified (same as cleansing) from unrighteousness, I have to assume your answer is no. But, I think you would like to rephrase that. I believe you have come to Jesus, confessed your sins and experienced being cleansed from unrighteousness. Am I correct in assuming you have experienced this?

But NetChap, this is the step beyond forgiveness. And that is "CLEANSING from all UNRIGHTEOUSNESS."

"...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" v7

When one is cleansed, he is set free. The cleansing comes through a process of repentance, as "we walk in the light as He is in the light" (vs 7).

Second, there is a release from the corrupt nature. "Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him; that our body of sin might be done away with; that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin" (Romans 6:6-7). Just as Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world, so sin must die in me. Are you committed to total freedom from sin? You might ask, "Do you believe you can reach a point you cannot sin? No, but I believe you can reach a point where you are free not to sin.

Third, there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that renews us. "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an infusion of God's love, an invasion of God's Spirit, a penetration of truth and righteousness, and an emancipation from sin. Only the Holy Spirit can reach the depth of man's being and bring radical change. God promised this as part of the new covenant.

God promised this to us in the New Covenant:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Be ye doers of the Word).

If everything is done now, everything completed in us and finished, then there is no reason to abide in His light or His life or His love. Our "spirits are redeemed and translated", so just live a good life and wait for the redemption of the body.

NetChaplain, Christ came to make men righteous and this is more than just a legal reckoning of faith; rather righteousness is to be experience as a work of the Holy Spirit.

Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

"In fact, if there is nothing to beware of, why would He mention it at all." - Dragonfly I don't know how you deduced this from my post but it's a misunderstanding. Christians are to "walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise; Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is: (Eph 5:15-17).

"You make it sound like everything is done and all we have to do is wait for our body to be redeemed. There is nothing left to do" - Axehead. Same here as above!

The idea of our works is that they are the fruit of salvation, not, salvation is the fruit of our works, This is covenantism, which is legalism and not grace. Legalism involved stipulations; if we do such and such, God will do such and such. This God has done only with Israel before Christ ended the covenant. At present, Israel has no covenant, so the Jews who've yet to accept Christ have nothing; but many of them will latter, during the millennial reign of Christ (Ezek 36:27). Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians have no stipulations and therefore are under grace - not covenantism.

Until our Lord's return, the righteous will occupy in doing righteousness, not just being idle, sitting on the hands.

 

[Axehead]

"In fact, if there is nothing to beware of, why would He mention it at all." - Dragonfly I don't know how you deduced this from my post but it's a misunderstanding. Christians are to "walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise; Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is: (Eph 5:15-17).

"You make it sound like everything is done and all we have to do is wait for our body to be redeemed. There is nothing left to do" - Axehead. Same here as above!

The idea of our works is that they are the fruit of salvation, not, salvation is the fruit of our works, This is covenantism, which is legalism and not grace. Legalism involved stipulations; if we do such and such, God will do such and such. This God has done only with Israel before Christ ended the covenant. At present, Israel has no covenant, so the Jews who've yet to accept Christ have nothing; but many of them will latter, during the millennial reign of Christ (Ezek 36:27). Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians have no stipulations and therefore are under grace - not covenantism.

Until our Lord's return, the righteous will occupy in doing righteousness, not just being idle, sitting on the hands.

Netchaplain,

It seems to me (maybe I am wrong) that you glossed over my questions. When you repent of your sins does Jesus "cleanse you from all unrighteousness", as in 1 John 1:9?

You say, "Axehead, our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been 'cleansed from all unrighteousness'".

I don't think that is Biblical, Netchap.

Doesn't the Bible say this? "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Maybe I wrote too much and it makes it difficult to address what I say, so I will just leave this post short.

I will write later about Jesus coming with GRACE and TRUTH, Netchaplain. He did not just come with GRACE.

Please try setting the commentaries aside for a season and just read the scriptures relying on the Holy Spirit, only. I think you will begin to see verses that the commentaries may have programmed you to ignore or miss. And read the Word with the attitude that everything you read is for today. No dispensationalism. I think you will find some wonderful treasures.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Bob,

I want to apologise for not acknowledging the blessings you sent our way in your last post to me, until now. I should have. Thank you. :)


One thing you said earlier in this discussion has been going round in my mind, as I tried to figure out why you would think it -

It takes much more time to understand Scripture without the aid of a good Bible commentary,

Before I was born again, I used to look into BIble commentaries, and of course they made interesting reading. I learned from the information which was mainly historical or geographical, but I didn't understand enough of the whole thread of scripture to follow the other comments. However, once I was born again, the other comments seemed hollow and lifeless - even if they accurately restated what I could glean from scripture for myself. The difference between reading a commentary, and sitting under Holy Spirit-led preaching, was immense, and I had no hunger or thirst for anything less than the latter.

Perhaps that luxury (Spirit-led preaching) is not available to everyone. Perhaps if one is doing a course of formal study in theology one has no choice but to compare commentators. I do also know of someone who came out of a Christian movement which extensively taught false doctrine, who purchased a full set of Matthew Henry and read every book from cover to cover, to realign his mind away from the indoctrination... but in general, my experience is that the Lord Himself opens up the word to my understanding, at a deeper level than any commentary can do.

Of great value, though, are Greek and Hebrew dictionaries, to get a feel for the historical meanings and import of key words.

Seeking multiple opinions from learned men of Scripture increases the potential for accurate understanding

This is actually the way of the world - consensus.

It's the same thought that undergirds the way an entire nation which has embraced democracy free from individual theocracy, can fall deeper and deeper into cynicism and sin as it chooses politicians follow the people's lead instead of God's.

God's word cannot be interpreted on the basis of majority opinion amongst men. God's word has to be understood from His point of view entirely, remembering that everything He speaks He is able to perform because all 'faith' originates with Him. Heb 12:2

Earlier in the discussion I also replied to your comment

our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been "cleansed from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). We have been transformed; now we are being conformed!

with these comments, in post # 15

Not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is the first outworking of walking in the Spirit, by which we begin to have our minds renewed.


The Greek words for transformation and conformation show the renewing of the mind is where the conforming begins to take place. The import of the word 'conformed' is that there is a pre-existing form (Christ) unto which we are being made alike.


The import of the word 'transformed' is that we are metamorphosing into His likeness by the renewing of our minds and the practices which accompany the new thinking. There is no transformation of mind alone, which does not show itself in changed actions.


The idea that sin is still the greater power in the life of the believer, is foreign to the New Testament.

1 John 3:3, 1 John 4:4, Romans 12:1, 2.

After the initial cleansing from past sins, there is a continuing work of purification in the human soul. 1 Peter 1:22.


Here are the meanings from the Greek for everyone's edification.

Note: conformity is always to a pre-existing model - good or bad.

conform

G4964 συσχημaτίζω suschematizo (soos-khay-mat-id'-zo) v.

1. to fashion alike, i.e. conform to the same pattern (figuratively)

[from G4862 and a derivative of G4976]
KJV: conform to, fashion self according to
Root(s): G4862, G4976


transform

G3339 μετaμορφόω metamorphoo (met-am-or-foh'-o) v.

1. to transform ("metamorphose")

{literally or figuratively}
[from G3326 and G3445]
KJV: change, transfigure, transform
Root(s): G3326, G3445



1 John 3:3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as He is pure. James 4:8, Titus 2:14, Matt 7:21, 24.


'... in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the [same] spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath [unbelief] even as others. Ephesians 2:2, 3,

But now!

10 '... we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.



Romans 12:1 '... present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God - your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that that ye may prove what [is]

that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. ​

 

[Netchaplain]

"When you repent of your sins does Jesus "cleanse you from all unrighteousness", as in 1 John 1:9?" -Axhead

Neither repentance, nor confession procures forgiveness and cleansing from unrighteousness. Repentance prepares for confession; confession petitions for forgiveness and cleansing (1 John 1:9), but it is only the blood of Christ which cleanses, and it is the Father who forgives.

We repent once but confess always. The Holy Spirit through John the Baptist (Luke 1:15) preached (Mat 3:1) the doctrine of repentance (v 2) which “prepared the way of the Lord” (v 3).

After repenting, confession follows (Mat 3:6) because repentance precedes salvation (2 Cor 7:10) and in our salvation we remain in a constant repentant mindset toward sin, but it is in our confession that we admit we sin which invokes the Father and Son’s remission and cleansing. -NC

“You say, "Axehead, our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been 'cleansed from all unrighteousness'". I don't think that is Biblical, Netchap.” -Axhead

Once we “repent and turn to God” (Acts 26:20) and confess our sins, then, “He is faithful . . . to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (all unrighteousness--past, present, future - 1 John 1:9). -NC