Where Is Heaven? Outer Space?

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Curtis

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I'm sorry Curtis but you speak in ignorance on these matters..
1....The antediluvians knew stealing was sin just as much as they did murder, their conscience bearing them witness as did God when he addressed Cain before he murdered Able.

Yet Cain wasn’t given the death penalty as the law demands, proving the sin of murder was not imputed to him, because the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham, nice try though.

(2.... re the Sabbath...Prior to the law given at Sinai the Israelites were told to gather manna each day for six days with a double portion to be gathered on the sixth day because there would be no manna on the seventh because it was a day of rest. If they gathered more on days one to five it did not keep ie, it went rotten but not so for the double portion gathered on the sixth day.)

This is irrelevant. Just because they were given a heads up as to what was going to be given to them by Moses, proves nothing regarding the claim that they already had the sabbath day command.
Moses made it clear in a Deuteronomy 5 that their father’s nor anyone else had the law and ten commands before then:

Notice that after he says that only they and no one before them had ever been given what Moses was giving them, He gave them the Ten Commandments:

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,

Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The above fact is fatal to the claim that God gave the sabbath day to keep as a command, from the 6th day on.

God makes clear the He gave the sabbath day command only to Israel after the Exodus, as a remembrance memorial of their being delivered by Him out of Egyptian bondage, and He made it a covenant sign between Israel and Himself as well.

It would hardly be a remembrance or memorial or covenant sign of their Exodus from bondage to give them a command that was already in place since creation, now would it?

Deu 5:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God brought thee out thence by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore Jehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.


REMEMBER that YOU (Israel) were slaves in Egypt and I took you out with a mighty hand. THEREFORE (because of the aforementioned deliverance from Egyptian slavery) I gave YOU (the nation of Israel) this sabbath day command.


That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of remembrance and a covenant sign - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was already kept since the 6th day of creation, now would it?


Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.

God never gave the sabbath day command to anyone but the nation of Israel. after they left Egypt ,as a covenant sign of the law and commands He gave them in the covenant given to them on the mountain, and as a memorial of remembrance of their deliverance.

Period.
 

Curtis

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The Sabbath was instituted in Eden along with Marriage. The Commandment given at Sinai said 'Remember the Sabbath Day...'
They are reminded to remember what they had forgotten in their sojourn in Egypt 400 yrs, in other words it was in existence.

Yep, He said REMEMBER you were slaves in bondage in Egypt, and I delivered you with an outstretched arm and a might hand, THEREFORE I gave you this sabbath day command.

That was why they were told to remember the sabbath.
 

quietthinker

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Yep, He said REMEMBER you were slaves in bondage in Egypt, and I delivered you with an outstretched arm and a might hand, THEREFORE I gave you this sabbath day command.

That was why they were told to remember the sabbath.
The deliverance from Egypt is a type of the deliverance at Calvary and the deliverance when Jesus returns. The Sabbath is a perpetual reminder that God is the Creator and recreator. If the Sabbath were not forgotten the theory of evolution would have had no traction
 

Curtis

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The deliverance from Egypt is a type of the deliverance at Calvary and the deliverance when Jesus returns. The Sabbath is a perpetual reminder that God is the Creator and recreator. If the Sabbath were not forgotten the theory of evolution would have had no traction
Jesus is the sabbath. Sabbath just means rest. He gives us rest 24/7, not just one day per week. Matthew 11:28-29

The sabbaths, all of them, are but shadows of Jesus, who is the real sabbath.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days:

Col 2:17 Which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the BODY is of Christ.

They always claim that the above verse isn’t talking about the weekly sabbath - so I provide proof what the Greek word SABBATON means as defined by a Greek dictionary:

The word sabbath above, is G4521 in Strongs:


G4521 (Strong)

σάββατον

sabbaton

sab'-bat-on

Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath(that is, Shabbath), or day of WEEKLY repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - SABBATH (DAY), week.

Total KJV occurrences: 68


Colossians 2:16-17 states to let no one judge you for not keeping the sabbath day, because it’s a shadow of Jesus, (who’s the real rest for us Matthew 11:28-29 - every day we rest in Him, and no longer on a ceremonial day).
 

Brakelite

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Jesus is the sabbath.

Colossians 2:16-17 states to let no one judge you for not keeping the sabbath day, because it’s a shadow of Jesus, (who’s the real rest for us Matthew 11:28-29 - every day we rest in Him, and no longer on a ceremonial day).
If you read Colossians carefully, you will notice that the Sabbath days which are no longer under any obligation to be observed are specifically identified... They are classified as shadows. As you correctly said, they pointed to Jesus as the remedy for sin. For example, the
KJV Leviticus 23:5-8
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

All the ceremonies of the feast were types of the work of Christ. The deliverance of Israel from Egypt was an object lesson of redemption, which the Passover was intended to keep in memory. The slain lamb, the unleavened bread, the sheaf of first fruits, represented the Saviour.

The Sabbath feasts were all about rectifying the sin issue through Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of each one... The entire sanctuary service including the feasts was the gospel in type... The blood of the lamb... The high priest... The bread... Light.... Incense... Door to the Tabernacle... Everything. All a remedy for sin. All a shadow.

The weekly Sabbath however was established at creation. On the seventh day. There was no sin issue at that time. Sin needed no remedy... No offering... No feast... No types... As the fall had not yet taken place. The weekly Sabbath instituted at creation was not a shadow of anything, but a memorial. Shadows weren't required yet. The weekly Sabbath was never included in the group of sabbaths Paul was referring to in that letter, which is confirmed by the very fact that the early church continued to observe the weekly Sabbath for several hundred years after it was written.
 

Curtis

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If you read Colossians carefully, you will notice that the Sabbath days which are no longer under any obligation to be observed are specifically identified... They are classified as shadows. As you correctly said, they pointed to Jesus as the remedy for sin. For example, the
KJV Leviticus 23:5-8
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

All the ceremonies of the feast were types of the work of Christ. The deliverance of Israel from Egypt was an object lesson of redemption, which the Passover was intended to keep in memory. The slain lamb, the unleavened bread, the sheaf of first fruits, represented the Saviour.

The Sabbath feasts were all about rectifying the sin issue through Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of each one... The entire sanctuary service including the feasts was the gospel in type... The blood of the lamb... The high priest... The bread... Light.... Incense... Door to the Tabernacle... Everything. All a remedy for sin. All a shadow.

The weekly Sabbath however was established at creation. On the seventh day. There was no sin issue at that time. Sin needed no remedy... No offering... No feast... No types... As the fall had not yet taken place. The weekly Sabbath instituted at creation was not a shadow of anything, but a memorial. Shadows weren't required yet. The weekly Sabbath was never included in the group of sabbaths Paul was referring to in that letter, which is confirmed by the very fact that the early church continued to observe the weekly Sabbath for several hundred years after it was written.


God never commanded anyone to keep a sabbath command, until He gave it to Israel, as a memorial of remembrance of being set free from Egyptian slavery, after their Exodus, and as a covenant sign between the nation of Israel, and Himself:


Deu 5:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God brought thee out thence by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore Jehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.


REMEMBER that YOU (Israel) were slaves in Egypt and I took you out with a mighty hand. THEREFORE (because of the aforementioned deliverance from Egyptian slavery) I gave YOU (the nation of Israel) this sabbath day command.


That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of remembrance and a covenant sign - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was kept since the 6th day of creation, now would it? Of course not. That doesn’t make any sense at all.


(Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.)


In fact Moses refutes the claim that any of their ancestors had the sabbath day command, when he was about to give Israel the covenant law God gave to them, which includes the Decalogue:


Note the chapter heading in the Bible for this passage:


The Ten Commandments.


Deu 5:1 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and observe to do them.


Deu 5:2 Jehovah our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.


Deu 5:3 Jehovah made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us,even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


No one had the covenant law and ten commands until Moses received them, after the Exodus from Egypt.


Here’s the fact that the sabbath day command is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel:


Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.

That explains why the word sabbath is not found at all in Genesis.
 

Brakelite

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That explains why the word sabbath is not found at all in Genesis.
KJV Genesis 2:1-3
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Now God blessed, sanctified, and made holy the Sabbath day. Show me anywhere in scripture where God has rescinded that sanctity and holiness. The day is still holy. The question is, what are you doing with it? Because it isn't about Israel. It isn't about you and me. It's about a day. The seventh day which 6000 years ago God set aside and declared it sacred. That my friend has never changed.
 

quietthinker

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Yet Cain wasn’t given the death penalty as the law demands, proving the sin of murder was not imputed to him, because the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham, nice try though.

(2.... re the Sabbath...Prior to the law given at Sinai the Israelites were told to gather manna each day for six days with a double portion to be gathered on the sixth day because there would be no manna on the seventh because it was a day of rest. If they gathered more on days one to five it did not keep ie, it went rotten but not so for the double portion gathered on the sixth day.)

This is irrelevant. Just because they were given a heads up as to what was going to be given to them by Moses, proves nothing regarding the claim that they already had the sabbath day command.
Moses made it clear in a Deuteronomy 5 that their father’s nor anyone else had the law and ten commands before then:

Notice that after he says that only they and no one before them had ever been given what Moses was giving them, He gave them the Ten Commandments:

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,

Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The above fact is fatal to the claim that God gave the sabbath day to keep as a command, from the 6th day on.

God makes clear the He gave the sabbath day command only to Israel after the Exodus, as a remembrance memorial of their being delivered by Him out of Egyptian bondage, and He made it a covenant sign between Israel and Himself as well.

It would hardly be a remembrance or memorial or covenant sign of their Exodus from bondage to give them a command that was already in place since creation, now would it?

Deu 5:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God brought thee out thence by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore Jehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.


REMEMBER that YOU (Israel) were slaves in Egypt and I took you out with a mighty hand. THEREFORE (because of the aforementioned deliverance from Egyptian slavery) I gave YOU (the nation of Israel) this sabbath day command.


That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of remembrance and a covenant sign - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was already kept since the 6th day of creation, now would it?


Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.

God never gave the sabbath day command to anyone but the nation of Israel. after they left Egypt ,as a covenant sign of the law and commands He gave them in the covenant given to them on the mountain, and as a memorial of remembrance of their deliverance.

Period.
you are either muddling deliberately or you are unaware that you are!
 

Brakelite

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REMEMBER that YOU (Israel) were slaves in Egypt and I took you out with a mighty hand. THEREFORE (because of the aforementioned deliverance from Egyptian slavery) I gave YOU (the nation of Israel) this sabbath day command
That was an added reason for keeping the day holy. The memorial significance wasn't replaced or removed because it remained inherent in the Commandment itself... For in six days the Lord made...

Were you wanting to actually address anything in the post you quoted regarding types and shadows, the main crux of our conversation?
 

Curtis

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That was an added reason for keeping the day holy. The memorial significance wasn't replaced or removed because it remained inherent in the Commandment itself... For in six days the Lord made...

That would be a killer refutation indeed, except it still doesn’t change the fact that God foreshadowed the sabbath day command on the 7th day, BUT DID NOT COMMAND anyone to keep the 7th day, UNTIL He gave it to Israel after their deliverance from Egyptian bondage, as a remembrance, a memorial, and a covenant sign between God, and the nation of Israel.

Let me know if you want to know the full meaning behind what God foreshadowed by taking 6 days for creation, then resting on the 7th day - it involves something that the early church fathers taught in the first century, such as Barnabas for one.
The 7th day sabbath command given to Israel was just another type and shadow of what God foreshadowed by resting on the 7th day.
 

Curtis

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Now God blessed, sanctified, and made holy the Sabbath day. Show me anywhere in scripture where God has rescinded that sanctity and holiness. The day is still holy. The question is, what are you doing with it? Because it isn't about Israel. It isn't about you and me. It's about a day. The seventh day which 6000 years ago God set aside and declared it sacred. That my friend has never changed.

The obvious error there, is that God indeed rested on the 7th day of creation, ONCE only - not weekly - and called that ONE TIME REST on the 7th day of creation holy, but never commanded ANYONE to keep a weekly sabbath rest observance, UNTIL He gave that command to Israel after their deliverance from Egyptian bondage, as a memorial and covenant SIGN between them.

It always goes back the the two scriptures that prove to who, why, and when the sabbath day of rest command was first given.

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

(Therefore means BECAUSE OF THIS - because He delivered Israel out of bondage in Egypt, He gave them the sabbath day of REST command. They got to rest from being slaves who had to work 7 days per week)

And:

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Those two facts are simply inescapable. No one was given a command to keep the sabbath day, before God gave it to Israel.

Shalom Aleichem
 

quietthinker

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That would be a killer refutation indeed, except it still doesn’t change the fact that God foreshadowed the sabbath day command on the 7th day, BUT DID NOT COMMAND anyone to keep the 7th day, UNTIL He gave it to Israel after their deliverance from Egyptian bondage, as a remembrance, a memorial, and a covenant sign between God, and the nation of Israel.

Let me know if you want to know the full meaning behind what God foreshadowed by taking 6 days for creation, then resting on the 7th day - it involves something that the early church fathers taught in the first century, such as Barnabas for one.
The 7th day sabbath command given to Israel was just another type and shadow of what God foreshadowed by resting on the 7th day.
In Eden God didn't command anyone to get married either....does that nullify marriage?.
You are creating a straw man to evade that which I see the intention of scripture as plain.
 

ReChoired

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Yet Cain wasn’t given the death penalty as the law demands, proving the sin of murder was not imputed to him, because the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham, nice try though.

(2.... re the Sabbath...Prior to the law given at Sinai the Israelites were told to gather manna each day for six days with a double portion to be gathered on the sixth day because there would be no manna on the seventh because it was a day of rest. If they gathered more on days one to five it did not keep ie, it went rotten but not so for the double portion gathered on the sixth day.)

This is irrelevant. Just because they were given a heads up as to what was going to be given to them by Moses, proves nothing regarding the claim that they already had the sabbath day command.
Moses made it clear in a Deuteronomy 5 that their father’s nor anyone else had the law and ten commands before then:

Notice that after he says that only they and no one before them had ever been given what Moses was giving them, He gave them the Ten Commandments:

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,

Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

The above fact is fatal to the claim that God gave the sabbath day to keep as a command, from the 6th day on.

God makes clear the He gave the sabbath day command only to Israel after the Exodus, as a remembrance memorial of their being delivered by Him out of Egyptian bondage, and He made it a covenant sign between Israel and Himself as well.

It would hardly be a remembrance or memorial or covenant sign of their Exodus from bondage to give them a command that was already in place since creation, now would it?

Deu 5:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God brought thee out thence by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm: therefore Jehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.


REMEMBER that YOU (Israel) were slaves in Egypt and I took you out with a mighty hand. THEREFORE (because of the aforementioned deliverance from Egyptian slavery) I gave YOU (the nation of Israel) this sabbath day command.


That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of remembrance and a covenant sign - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was already kept since the 6th day of creation, now would it?


Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily ye shall keep my sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.

God never gave the sabbath day command to anyone but the nation of Israel. after they left Egypt ,as a covenant sign of the law and commands He gave them in the covenant given to them on the mountain, and as a memorial of remembrance of their deliverance.

Period.
Would you be willing to discuss this topic in a new thread, that way we can focus on it, rather than derail this OP about Heaven?

I would be willing to consider all you have given, and with the other responses you have given to quietthinker. What say you? If so, please allow me to create a new Thread entitled "Covenants", and I will link to it in this thread, and requote what you have shared there. Let me know please.
 

Curtis

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Would you be willing to discuss this topic in a new thread, that way we can focus on it, rather than derail this OP about Heaven?

I would be willing to consider all you have given, and with the other responses you have given to quietthinker. What say you? If so, please allow me to create a new Thread entitled "Covenants", and I will link to it in this thread, and requote what you have shared there. Let me know please.
Sure.
 

Earburner

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Ok….so then what about E and E? They weren’t glorified so how could they be in that dimension?
Enoch and Elijah were NEVER glorified before Jesus was.
Unfortunately, most Christians have swallowed the regurgitated religious slop of "church-ianity".
John 3[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
 

quietthinker

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Enoch and Elijah were NEVER glorified before Jesus was.
Unfortunately, most Christians have swallowed the regurgitated religious slop of "church-ianity".
John 3[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
in this context, what do you think 'glorify' means?
 

ReChoired

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Enoch and Elijah were NEVER glorified before Jesus was.
Unfortunately, most Christians have swallowed the regurgitated religious slop of "church-ianity".
John 3[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
What do you make of the following?

https://archive.org/download/hebrews-11-enoch-these-all-died-for-jehovahs-witnesses-wts-jw/Hebrews 11 - Enoch - These all died - For Jehovah's Witnesses WTS - JW.pdf

https://archive.org/download/resurrections-translations-in-the-bible_202106/Resurrections & Translations In The Bible.pdf

https://archive.org/download/matthe...ial Firstfruits Resurrection of Jerusalem.pdf
 

Faith1960

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Enoch and Elijah were NEVER glorified before Jesus was.
Unfortunately, most Christians have swallowed the regurgitated religious slop of "church-ianity".
John 3[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Yeah, I know that, so what happened to them? Floating around in space? Some supernatural placement in heaven while still alive or what?
 

Earburner

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in this context, what do you think 'glorify' means?
The fact that you had no comment to my first quote, it is evident that you agree with it.

As to your question, you should know that neither Enoch or Elijah had any previous existence of any kind with God the Father, before the world was.

However, for God the Father to honor Jesus with the Father's ownself, it is readily apparent by His words, that Jesus did have a prior existence with the Father, BEFORE the world was.