Where is the reformation in the Bible?

[theefaith]

I see Jezebel throughout the whole bible.
She is the oposite of the virtueous woman.
She is the opposite of wisdom.
She is worldly and greedy and murderous.
Treacherous.

The spirit of Jezebel is all around us.
She is cunning.

I think if you had a female version of Satan,
then Jezebel would fit the description.

Those just my thoughts
Hugs

thanks
I appreciate your insight

 

[Wrangler]

The jezebel spirit?

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel...
someone said Mary is this jezebel or this jezebel spirit...

My Bible translation does not even have Mary in that verse.

Revelation 2:20
The Voice

20 “However, I have this against you: you have tolerated that woman Jezebel, who is a self-anointed prophetess and who misleads My followers to commit immoral sexual acts and to eat food prepared for idol worship.

 

[theefaith]

My Bible translation does not even have Mary in that verse.

Revelation 2:20
The Voice

20 “However, I have this against you: you have tolerated that woman Jezebel, who is a self-anointed prophetess and who misleads My followers to commit immoral sexual acts and to eat food prepared for idol worship.

I know but someone on here made that accusation

 

[Ziggy]

It makes me sad and mad what they done to Mary.

A young woman, unmarried finds herself pregnant.
The town folk whispering behind her back.
A man who has doubts about marrying her.
But Faith got them through it.

Mary who had to stand by and watch her son be ridiculed and beaten and shamed.
But held onto hope that God would see them through.

Then THEY took Mary and carved out an image and placed her on a pedestal for all the world to see.
They covered her with plaster and with metals and bowed down and worshipped the image "THEY" had made.

I know many don't see it how I see it.
I see them making a spectacle and a mockery of the very GRACE God gave to Mary and to us.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

It is Blasphemy.

It's not about Mary.
It's about what THEY did to her.

Ah mercy
Hugs

 

[theefaith]

It makes me sad and mad what they done to Mary.

A young woman, unmarried finds herself pregnant.
The town folk whispering behind her back.
A man who has doubts about marrying her.
But Faith got them through it.

Mary who had to stand by and watch her son be ridiculed and beaten and shamed.
But held onto hope that God would see them through.

Then THEY took Mary and carved out an image and placed her on a pedestal for all the world to see.
They covered her with plaster and with metals and bowed down and worshipped the image "THEY" had made.

I know many don't see it how I see it.
I see them making a spectacle and a mockery of the very GRACE God gave to Mary and to us.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

It is Blasphemy.

It's not about Mary.
It's about what THEY did to her.

Ah mercy
Hugs

only worship God of course
But images are not forbidden only graven images like the golden calf

Mary was faithful

lk 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from

Only she believed in the resurrection on that Saturday after good friday

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (ancient writer)

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!

I NEVER KNEW THIS. GOD HELP ME
Here I see for the first time in my life how the whole Christian Church from the mouth of its spiritual leaders consists of harlot daughters of the same harlot mother the Roman Catholic Church.

If this be true, GOD be a fornicator having created man and wife to become one flesh to have children IN THE FEAR OF GOD TO THE GLORY OF HIS NAME. The most wonderful and beautiful gift of Almighty God to human and animate life being so demonised and slandered as read from these 'saints' is just too horrible to contemplate.

It is the last straw: I distance myself and mine the Lord gave me, from any 'Christian' Community or Communion or Congregation or Worship or Church whatsoever who or which (may) condone or subscribe or confess or teach this diabolical Antichrist teaching herewith printed above. So help me God from now on and forevermore

 

[Wrangler]

only worship God of course
But images are not forbidden

It's not the image but apparent worship or deification (Mother of God) of Mary that is so off-putting to Christ followers.

 

[theefaith]

It's not the image but apparent worship or deification (Mother of God) of Mary that is so off-putting to Christ followers.

And it is forbidden

 

[Illuminator]

It's not the image but apparent worship or deification (Mother of God) of Mary that is so off-putting to Christ followers.

Because you refuse to listen to any of our explanations. Only STUPID people think that prayer stops at wood or plaster.

 

[Illuminator]

I NEVER KNEW THIS. GOD HELP ME
Here I see for the first time in my life how the whole Christian Church from the mouth of its spiritual leaders consists of harlot daughters of the same harlot mother the Roman Catholic Church.

If this be true, GOD be a fornicator having created man and wife to become one flesh to have children IN THE FEAR OF GOD TO THE GLORY OF HIS NAME. The most wonderful and beautiful gift of Almighty God to human and animate life being so demonised and slandered as read from these 'saints' is just too horrible to contemplate.

It is the last straw: I distance myself and mine the Lord gave me, from any 'Christian' Community or Communion or Congregation or Worship or Church whatsoever who or which (may) condone or subscribe or confess or teach this diabolical Antichrist teaching herewith printed above. So help me God from now on and forevermore

I strongly urge you to tell your doctor about the harlots you see everywhere.

 

[Ziggy]

only worship God of course
But images are not forbidden only graven images like the golden calf

Mary was faithful

lk 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from

Only she believed in the resurrection on that Saturday after good friday

Actually the resurrection was on the eighth day, that's when the unbelievers got cut off.
Yes yes the bible says the first day, however the first day and the eighth day are the same.

Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Yes it was the first day of the week, and the eighth as well.

I see how you tried to slip that in there though..
try harder

 

[Ziggy]

I don't know..
this sounds pretty all encompassing to me.
It doesn't stop at people..

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

there are graven images or any likeness of anything...

You all just REFUSE to see it, and I don't know why that is..

Do you really HATE GOD that much?

That you would ignore his plea to want you to worship HIM and HIM alone?
Do you have more faith in Man, more faith in a statue?

REPENT!

 

[theefaith]

I don't know..
this sounds pretty all encompassing to me.
It doesn't stop at people..

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

there are graven images or any likeness of anything...

You all just REFUSE to see it, and I don't know why that is..

Do you really HATE GOD that much?

That you would ignore his plea to want you to worship HIM and HIM alone?
Do you have more faith in Man, more faith in a statue?

REPENT!

there is a difference between worship and veneration

between images and graven images

worship which Protestants don’t have consists of adoration, reparation or the offering of the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, thanksgiving and petition!

no adoration or sacrifice is offered to Mary!

(praise is not included)

the second apostolic council of nicea condemned the heresy of iconoclasm or no images allowed

Ex 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Mary is not a God!

God commanded them to make images!

Ex 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.

18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

crucifixes

Gal 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

 

[amadeus]

only worship God of course
But images are not forbidden only graven images like the golden calf

God used images according to His purpose as per...

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." Numb 21:8-9

Looking at the brass serpent saved the lives of people bitten by poisonous snakes... but then...

But then some 700 years later we see where the people had twisted the usage of that image made to accomplish good into an idol to worship. King Hezekiah of Judah in his Reform efforts recognizing the error had the image destroyed:

"He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." II Kings 18:4

Our good friend and brother @bbyrd009 first brought that to my attention a few years ago here on this forum. It brought to my mind, my own experience as a devout young Catholic Altar boy...

I remember seeing a lot of older Catholics, usually women, kneeling before the side altars in the church building praying before the statues there of various biblical personages including Mary, the mother of Jesus. I presumed they talking or praying to the statues, Mary in particular because the nuns often mentioned her during catechism instructions. Yes, she was mentioned frequently and we were taught to look to her and ask her for help. I know they never made any distinction between that and worship. How else was I to know the difference? Why would I have even thought to ask anyone about something like that?

Did the CC make such a distinction during those times in the 1950's while Pius XII was the Pope? Officially perhaps, but what they did not teach me I did not know. I was a regular never missing mass if I could help for many years until I graduated from high school and left town. While those in my household were also Catholics, once my older brother quit attending mass. before finishing elementary school, no one but me attended mass at all except possibly on Christmas or Easter and none of them knew as much about Catholicism as I did.

Was the difference between the fiery serpent prepared by Moses as directed God and later destroyed by King Hezekiah important? Did anyone in the CC realize that when I was attending Catholic masses all alone? Perhaps, but no one ever told us that story of Nehushtan and in those days, the whole Bible was not regularly read in the CC churches. That Bible reading during the mass was only seriously begun with the implementation of Vatican II policies a few years into the 1960's long after I had stopped attending any more.

So now, at least on forums such as this one, it has been presented that Catholics were never supposed to worship anyone but God. Who knew? Not me! Was my ignorance my own fault?

My mother always had a large family Bible opened to the beautiful color pictures located between the OT and NT but no one in our household ever read that book. I looked at the pictures a few times but I was really afraid to read it because where I attended it had been discouraged by the nuns. I do not recall the priests ever mentioning it one way of the other. Since then I have heard that Pope Pius XII actually had tried to get Catholics to read their Bibles, but anyone that knew that in and around Mission San Juan Bautista where I attended never shared that knowledge with me. Probably none of the lay people were aware of it.

Did not Vatican II result in a Reformation instigated by the powers that be in the CC?

 

[Wrangler]

Because you refuse to listen to any of our explanations

Explaining why you sin does not make it more acceptable.

 

[theefaith]

God used images according to His purpose as per...

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." Numb 21:8-9

Looking at the brass serpent saved the lives of people bitten by poisonous snakes... but then...

But then some 700 years later we see where the people had twisted the usage of that image made to accomplish good into an idol to worship. King Hezekiah of Judah in his Reform efforts recognizing the error had the image destroyed:

"He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." II Kings 18:4

Our good friend and brother @bbyrd009 first brought that to my attention a few years ago here on this forum. It brought to my mind, my own experience as a devout young Catholic Altar boy...

I remember seeing a lot of older Catholics, usually women, kneeling before the side altars in the church building praying before the statues there of various biblical personages including Mary, the mother of Jesus. I presumed they talking or praying to the statues, Mary in particular because the nuns often mentioned her during catechism instructions. Yes, she was mentioned frequently and we were taught to look to her and ask her for help. I know they never made any distinction between that and worship. How else was I to know the difference? Why would I have even thought to ask anyone about something like that?

Did the CC make such a distinction during those times in the 1950's while Pius XII was the Pope? Officially perhaps, but what they did not teach me I did not know. I was a regular never missing mass if I could help for many years until I graduated from high school and left town. While those in my household were also Catholics once my older brother quit before finishing elementary school, no one but me attended mass at all except possibly on Christmas or Easter and none of them knew as much about Catholicism as I did.

Was the difference between the fiery serpent prepared by Moses as directed God and later destroyed by King Hezekiah important? Did anyone in the CC realize that when I was attending Catholic masses all alone? Perhaps, but no one ever told us that story of Nehushtan and in those days, the whole Bible was not regularly read in the CC churches. That Bible reading during the mass was only seriously begun with the implementation of Vatican II policies a few years into the 1960's long after I had stopped attending any more.

So now, at least on forums such as this one, it has been presented that Catholics were never not supposed to worship anyone but God. Who knew? Not me! Was my ignorance my own fault?

My mother always had a large family Bible opened to the beautiful color pictures located between the OT and NT but no one in our household ever read that book. I looked at the pictures a few times but I was really afraid to read it because where I attended it had been discouraged by the nuns. I do not recall the priests ever mentioning it one way of the other. Since then I have heard that Pope Pius XII actual had tried to get Catholics to read their Bibles, but anyone that knew that in and around Mission San Juan Bautista never shared that knowledge with me. Probably none of the lay people were aware of it.

Did not Vatican II result in a Reformation instigated by the powers that be in the CC?

In the communion of saints all can pray for each other

 

[theefaith]

Explaining why you sin does not make it more acceptable.

Again

there is a difference between worship and veneration

between images and graven images

worship which Protestants don’t have consists of adoration, reparation or the offering of the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, thanksgiving and petition!

no adoration or sacrifice is offered to Mary!

(praise is not included)

the second apostolic council of nicea condemned the heresy of iconoclasm or no images allowed

Ex 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Mary is not a God!

God commanded them to make images!

Ex 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.

18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

crucifixes

Gal 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

 

[amadeus]

In the communion of saints all can pray for each other

Yes, I also pray for people. This forum has a prayer sub-forum where people who are not Catholics also pray for each other... Have you ever visited it? I know of at least one Catholic on here who does regularly.

Did you not bypass my real point?

 

[theefaith]

Yes, I also pray for people. This forum has a prayer sub-forum where people who are not Catholics also pray for each other... Have you ever visited it? I know of at least one Catholic on here who does regularly.

Did you not bypass my real point?

Vatican 2? Yes

 

[theefaith]

Yes I bypassed it