Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection?

[Aunty Jane]

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This statement “the spirits of just men made perfect” doesn’t mean what you assume it means.
The Greek word “spirit” (pneuma) when used in relation to humans or animals has the same meaning…..
It can mean…..

1. “the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2. the soul” (Strongs)

Animals as well as humans are “souls” (air breathers) and can be said to be “spirited”….so the spirit found in “just men” is a strong and vibrant one, which remains true to the teachings of the Christ, no matter what others wish to believe.
Since “few” are to be found on the road to life, (Matt 7:13-14) and the majority have been taken off on a superhighway to death....look for the hated and persecuted minority that others accuse of being heretics.....(John 15:18-21)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is also a misinterpretation because if you read it in context, Paul is addressing the Christian “body” as a whole, not individuals, as if they are made up of three components. Humans were created with a body, but they do not “have” a “soul”....they are a soul. Their spirit is the breath that keeps them alive.....and it can be driving force in their personality, like the one displayed by Jesus and his apostles.

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Again, this is misunderstood because of the false teaching of an immortal soul.
Paul knew that in order to be resurrected to heaven, he would need to die in the flesh and be resurrected as a spirit, in the same way Jesus was. Flesh and blood are earth bound, and cannot exist outside of earth’s oxygenated atmosphere. Being in the flesh means that the elect are absent from the Lord in heaven, since flesh and blood cannot exist in the spirit realm. They must give up their body of flesh to be given a spirit body.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

It was a desire implanted by God’s spirit.....the desire to go to heaven....a desire that had to be stronger than the natural desire in all humans to live in paradise......because that is where God intended us humans to live forever....right here on earth. The thief who was hung alongside Jesus as told that he would be with Jesus in “paradise” not “heaven”.....and Jesus could not have been with the thief that day because he was dead in his grave for three days and nights as he said he would be.

Those who have the “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) are going to heaven with a specific purpose....to act as “kings and priests” for redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 20:6)

Revelation 21:2-4 is the outcome for all saved mankind....a return to what we lost in Eden.

 

[PGS11]

Well with the fall of humanity no one had been saved Jesus descended in to hell to save the souls that did not belong there starting with Adam and Eve if he didn't then they are all still there.

 

[Johann]

Well with the fall of humanity no one had been saved Jesus descended in to hell to save the souls that did not belong there starting with Adam and Eve if he didn't then they are all still there.

This is error.

J.

 

[face2face]

Those who have the “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) are going to heaven with a specific purpose....to act as “kings and priests” for redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 20:6)

Revelation 21:2-4 is the outcome for all saved mankind....a return to what we lost in Eden.

The resurrection is on earth...there is no promise of ascending to Heaven for the Elect. Yes the calling is from Heaven just as the Kingdom is coming from Heaven but the Kings and Priests are the Saints who will rule with Christ from Jerusalem from Davids throne.

Revelation 4:2 descibes David's Throne to be established on the earth upon which Christ will reign. I think you are misleading yourself with Jehovah's throne which Christ currently sits beside.

4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit, and a throne was standing in heaven with someone seated on it! Re 4:2.

The throne is the restored throne of David (Luke 1:32), called the "throne of Yahweh"

At that time the city of Jerusalem will be called the Lord’s throne. All nations will gather there in Jerusalem to honor the Lord’s name Jer 3:17.

And, in the Apocalypse, "the throne of God" (Rev. 7:10,15; 19:4; 22:1,3), for He, in the Son, will dwell among men on earth

7:15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple, and the one seated on the throne will shelter them. 7:16 They will never go hungry or be thirsty again, and the sun will not beat down on them, nor any burning heat, 7:17 because the Lamb in the middle of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Re 7:15–17.

See Rev 21:3 also

In the past, the throne of David was "cast down"

You have brought to an end his splendor, and have knocked his throne to the ground. Ps 89:44.

but it is to be "raised up" again!!

15:16 ‘After this I will return (to earth), and I will rebuild the fallen tent (house) of David; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 15:17 so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord, namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,’ says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago. Ac 15:16–18.

Christ will rule from Earth with the Saints - the 12 Apostles judging over the 12 tribes of Israel and righteousness will flow throughout the earth.

F2F

 

[wooddog]

Upon being resurrected by God he became the first man to be raised to eternal life and "became" a life giving Spirit.

What this means is God placed in Christ, the knowledge of "Life" and "Life" itself!

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 2 Pe 1:2.

3 His (God) divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 2 Pe 1:3.

Peter places the emphasis on knowledge, for without a correct knowledge how can one attain Life? i.e Christ was given the "words" of eternal life.

If you also read the Acts of the Apostles every reference to the resurrection is said to be done by God - the dead know nothing.

F2F

Yes this should be our desire. Per John 3;3 we are born in the flesh, die in the flesh, and on the last day born again to see the kingdom of God. Paul explains this in 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[PGS11]

This is error.

J.

Well if your claiming people were raised up before Jesus was raised up then you are in error every soul prior to Jesus was wait for him or are you claiming they are all still waiting for him.No one could enter heaven prior to Jesus its why he came.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He went straight to hell.

He crossed from Paradise to Prison.

(Crossing the chasm that wasn't able to be crossed by others at that time it seems.)

Possible, just can't say for sure as hell had three abodes and all were imprisoned. the righteous, waiting for Jesus blood to be shed and He ascend back.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you know what those Scriptures mean? Mind, Life & Body?

That is not wehat was written anor what it means in the original. That is a watchtower

mistranslation.

To be absent is not Paul wanting be unclothed but looking forward to being with Christ when he is resurrected at a future time.

That is not what Paul said in its context. He said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Period. It is not written in a future tense so you are simply wrong.

No man has ascended Heaven!

So where are Elijah and Enoch? riding around in outer space????????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This wisdom has been hidden from you.

1. This section mentions neither Heaven or souls
2. Assuming it is literal as you say lets consider the facts
- The passage speaks about bodies not souls. e.g. eyes, bosom (v23) tip of finger and tongue (v24)
- Souls are said to be immaterial (the material body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a immaterial soul) be carried by angels? (see v22)
- The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other in verse 26). Is the great gulf to be taken literally?
-Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing in hell?
- How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward. (Heb 11:8, 13, 39, 40).

So you think I am outside of the kingdom of heaven then?

Have you been to hell? If not how can you with aqny sense of correctness say what can and cannot be done in the land of the dead? But as is written in Ephesians, when Jesus ascended He took those in Abrahams Bosom (paradise part of hell) into heaven. )

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is connected to the preceding as an example (Luke 16:19–26) both of a man who was a lover of money (16:14) and who foolishly made poor use of his possessions (16:9–13) as well as an example (16:27–31) of the continued validity of the law and the prophets (16:16–18). The audience envisioned by the parable fits well the Pharisee of 16:14, and 17:1 suggests this by changing the audience to the disciples. This parable is unusual for at least two reasons. For one it is the only parable in which a character is named. Because of the name “Lazarus” (16:20, 23–25), it has been suggested that 16:19–31 is not a parable but a historical account. Luke, however, clearly thought this was a parable, for he introduced it with “There was a [certain] rich man” (see comments on 10:30). Within the Gospel are seven instances in which an account begins “a certain man” (anthropos tis). In all but one (14:2) this was used to introduce a parable (10:30; 14:16; 15:11; 16:1 [“rich” is added]; 16:19 [“rich” is added]; 19:12 [“of noble birth” is added]). The last six examples are furthermore all introduced by “he [Jesus] said/was saying” whereas 14:2 is clearly part of a narrative. This account also begins with the same introduction as the parable in 16:1, “There was a rich man,” so that Luke intended for his readers to interpret this as a parable, not as a historical account. The parable is also unusual in that it is a two-part parable (cf. 15:11–32). Some have argued therefore that originally this was not one parable but two (16:19–26 and 16:27–31). As in 15:11–32 there is no compelling reason why this could not have consisted from the beginning as a two-part parable. Non-Lukan vocabulary throughout the parable indicates that the present two-part form is pre-Lukan, and there is no reason Jesus could not have spoken the parable essentially in its present form unless we claim that the parable explicitly refers to Jesus’ resurrection (16:30–31) and that he could not have made such a reference. The meaning of the parable is relatively clear. The first part (16:19–26) illustrates the blessedness of the poor believer (6:20) and the woe of the unbelieving rich (6:24). This reversal of roles between this life and the next was well-known in Egyptian and Jewish folklore, and Jesus may have borrowed some of the material for his parable from such folklore. Such a reversal fits well Jesus’ teaching and Luke’s emphasis concerning riches (cf. 12:13–21). See Introduction 8 (5). The second part of the parable (16:27–31) teaches that unbelief and the refusal to repent are not the results of lack of evidence (or lack of a sign) but due to a stony heart.

So now you know the audiences reaction to this account. And how can you prove the first Luke account is a parable? Jesus said there was a man... But you say this is just a story.

And it wasn't Jewish folklore but accepted as truth. Jesus would not use a lie to address a truth. He used a truth to express. The major thrust of the rich man and Lazarus is found at the end when the rich man asked to send Lazarus to warn his brothers. Abraham reminded him that if the brothers would not heed the law and prophets, they wouldn't heed even if one rose from the dead ( areference to jesus)

All you offer is conjecture that doesn't jibe with history.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette

". . . Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand. . . " (Mark 4:11,12).

"But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." (Mark 4:34).

Rather than forcing non Biblical notions upon this parable you would be wise to learn its mystery.

Back on topic.

Death is the cessation of life and its within Yahwehs Power to raise the dead from their sleep. Some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death

Death is given more figrative language because God is not pleased when the wicked perish, but wants all to come to the knowledge of everlasting life in Christ Jesus. The severity of death in the Mind of God is communicated as being a torment, shame, disgrace and is the opposite of the God of the Living!

F2F

So you think me unsaved. Okay then! You should heed you rown words about forcing non-biblical notions.

But as you imply I am unsaved (for Jesus spoke in parables to hide the truth from the unsaved. Do not waste any more time with me as according to your opinion I have eyes but do not see, ears that do not hear and a heart that is waxed gross. We will let Jesus judge between us and see who has tampered with His Word. Bye Bye Have the last word if you wish.

You have sinned a great sinned in assuming the role of God in judging whether I am saved or not.

 

[face2face]

Jesus would not use a lie to address a truth.

This was the only objection you presented which reveals you are yet to learn the skill and wisdom of your Lord.

You fail to see the skill of the Master in forming a lesson for the Pharisees & Saducees which conveyed through the story, the intended point; e.g. Jesus makes reference to Beelzebub (literally "Lord of the Flies") in Matthew 12:27 without committing himself to a belief in Baalzebub the god of Ekron (2 Kings 1:2).

Now you would not deny this or accept this as truth, to do so would result in you giving ground in this discussion and reveal you are both treacheble and able to accept truth - you can't and wont do this!

A stronger point however, is that the nature of all parody is to demonstrate wrong thinking on the part of the persons parodied so comparison of the 1st Century Jewish ideas with the message of the parable suggests that it is exactly those ideas which are being criticised as much as those who taught them.

You ought to study the Lord's skillfulness in forming these Parables as there is much to learn in them and of the Lord himself.

If yo respond please do so with true insight into the Word not just with forced medieval notions.

F2F

 

[face2face]

So you think me unsaved.

I think you are deceived - evidence suggests you have not challenged your own beliefs to see if they are in fact true.

Maybe you need to be "taught again" the first principles of the true Gospel of God with Power.

If you need help in really learning about the Parable of the Rich Man let me know

F2F

 

[TheHC]

Christ says about her she is not dead but sleeping.

Hello, Scott….

I’m sure you would agree that the Bible cannot contradict itself, right?

So it’s best to examine, without our own prejudicial leanings or bias, other Scriptures that deal with the subject of the soul, death, and condition of the dead, to find the interpretation that explains all of them….

The OT was written in Hebrew, so it would be beneficial to use a Hebrew – English interlinear, or a lexicon…

BibleHub.com has a decent one, you can use it for each verse….

Almost at the beginning of the Bible, at Genesis 1:20, the Hebrew text uses the word “nepes / nephesh” (which is “soul” in English) in reference to ‘swimming creatures in the oceans’.

In vss. 21 & 24, God’s Word refers to animals as “souls.”

So animals are called souls.

At this point though, some might object to that, claiming, “animals aren’t souls, they have souls.”

(Isn’t that what most people are taught?)

But what does the Bible say?

Turn to Genesis 2:7, where God’s Word describes the creation of Adam. It says:
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

At his creation, Adam “became” a soul. He wasn’t ‘given’ one, or ‘possessed’ one; he was one. He was a soul. We are souls.

And the Bible is consistent with this idea.

The Bible doesn’t contradict itself… only when the interpretation is wrong, the Bible might seem to.

In using a Hebrew - English interlinear, you will find out the Bible says the soul, dies… and it stays dead. Numbers 6:6; 6:11; & 19:13 are a few verses of many, that reveal this idea.

This is a new idea for you, yes? It is for most people because it’s not what they were taught.

And most translations don’t use the word soul where the text says it dies … they’ll use other words, like creature, person, corpse or body.

That’s from the heavy influence of ancient pagan Greek philosophy, which promoted the idea of an immortal soul.



Take care.

 

[MatthewG]

Possible, just can't say for sure as hell had three abodes and all were imprisoned. the righteous, waiting for Jesus blood to be shed and He ascend back.

We most certainly don't have all the facts. We sometimes have to just interject in what can be gathered by the evidences of the bible then make our minds up on the ntoions.

I do agree there was a lower of the lower parts of hell, or sheol. Paradse / Prison / taturus, these are all parts of places which are unseen.

 

[face2face]

We most certainly don't have all the facts. We sometimes have to just interject in what can be gathered by the evidences of the bible then make our minds up on the ntoions.

I do agree there was a lower of the lower parts of hell, or sheol. Paradse / Prison / taturus, these are all parts of places which are unseen.

These are false Greek mythological notions which you have adopted into your own mind and allowed yourself to be decieved.

 

[MatthewG]

@face2face,

Hello there from America to Aussie,

I don't think I am deceived. What authority do you have to say I am? Is my question. I don't even really talk to you bud, ya know... Just cause you disagree doesn't mean anything more than, you simply disagree.

Great! Disagree.

 

[face2face]

@face2face,

Hello there from America to Aussie,

I don't think I am deceived. What authority do you have to say I am? Is my question. I don't even really talk to you bud, ya know... Just cause you disagree doesn't mean anything more than, you simply disagree.

Great! Disagree.

Hi Matthhew
All you can do is warn - watchmen do this even for those who oppose themselves.
F2F

 

[MatthewG]

Hi Matthhew
All you can do is warn - watchmen do this even for those who oppose themselves.
F2F

Warn me? Why? Cause my faith is not hindered by what I believe, concerning hell as a whole. So you basically have no authority?

 

[face2face]

Warn me? Why? Cause my faith is not hindered by what I believe, concerning hell as a whole. So you basically have no authority?

How can you say your faith is not hindered? If you were revealed the dogma of hell is merely a fabrication in your own mind and has no reality whatsoever, you honestly say this does not hinder your faith? It's like you saying "hey man, I'm a chrisitan and it doesn't matter what I believe, my faith is good!" And the only authority we have is from Scripture. Maybe that is insufficient also?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@MatthewG

Here is a list of things which you believe which seriously impact your faith.

1. You believe in a God that allows eternal torture
2. You need to believe His Holy Nature (Divine) can sin
3. You believe God has chaos in His Heavenly abode
4. You believe God's Will is not done in Heaven so how can you believe it will be done of earth?
5. Your reward is compromised because you believe angels can sin - which must mean you go from a corrupt nature to a divine nature, which also suffers temptation of evil (crazy!)
6. It also means your reward of eternal life carries the possibitity of death (double crazy!)
7. It also means there is a stack of prophecy you do not understand the blessings (promised) of the prophecies given by Christ to his servants is totally unknown to you.

And you say "Cause my faith is not hindered by what I believe"

There are no words to describe this type of folly.

F2F