Where will you spend eternity?

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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
So, the work of the Atonement was incomplete? That's your answer?
Its not that the atonement was “incomplete” but that the benefits of the atonement were yet future.
We are all still in our sinful state and we are all still dying as a result of it…..but we have the hope that even if we die, God’s will never does, and his redemption of mankind is assured because our sins are now forgiven as long as we who identify as Christians, die faithful. And those who never got a chance to know God and his son, will get that opportunity. (John 5:28-29)
Thanks for your thoughtful and complete reply.

That was a lot of words to never get to a "Yes."
But I'll overlook that if we can discuss this bit from the end of your quote above.
"And those who never got a chance to know God and his son, will get that opportunity. (John 5:28-29)"

John 5:28-29 NIV
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming
when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

/
 

Aunty Jane

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St. SteVen said:
So, the work of the Atonement was incomplete? That's your answer?

Thanks for your thoughtful and complete reply.

That was a lot of words to never get to a "Yes."
It wasn’t a “yes or no“ question…..without explanation, there is no yes or no answer to any important question in the scriptures. God encourages us to know what we believe, and why we believe it….study is the only way we gain that knowledge, because it’s not just about what we believe, so much as why we believe it and who told us so.
But I'll overlook that if we can discuss this bit from the end of your quote above.
"And those who never got a chance to know God and his son, will get that opportunity. (John 5:28-29)"

John 5:28-29 NIV
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming
when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Who is saying this? It is Jesus himself speaking of the coming resurrection which he will perform when his kingdom is established over this earth….not the resurrection of the “saints” (who are all resurrected “first”. Rev 20:6) but of those who are not “dead in Christ” (chosen for a role in heaven).

So who are coming back in this general resurrection of mankind? Jesus said it was “those who did good things” as well as “those who practiced vile things”….all done before Christ had offered himself for mankind, providing the basis for their forgiveness. These are the ones who had no exposure to the true God, or knowledge of the redeeming power of his Christ. Those who died without law cannot be judged by it. God will not punish anyone who has acted in genuine ignorance through circumstances beyond their control.

Paul wrote to the Romans….

“For there is no partiality with God.
For all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.”
(Romans 2:11-16)

Those who had exposure to God’s laws and refused to obey them are in a different position to those who never knew them. So those who died in ignorance (even those who practiced vile things) are resurrected and given that opportunity during the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. It is a resurrection of judgment not condemnation. We don’t have to worry though because Jesus knows who are in their graves to be brought back to life…..and who has merited a place in Gehenna….the lake of fire.

But Paul identified some who were disciples of Christ, but who were not of the “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1)
If all were of the “heavenly calling” then there would be no need to identify them specifically.
Paul wrote to those in Corinth….
to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, (saints) together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

3 May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

So Paul apparently knew that there was a reason for some to be “called” to a “heavenly” hope, whilst others were not, yet still calling on the name of their Lord Jesus, “together with” those ones. And there was no animosity or jealousy between the two. Just different roles to play in God’s service.….with some in heaven as kings and priests, whilst others carry out their service to God on earth. These who die faithful are the ones “who practiced good things” even those they did not have the heavenly calling. Their love for God and his Christ were demonstrated by how well they implemented Christ’s teachings in their lives.

If envy or jealousy was to be present between the two classes in the congregation, then it would be an evidence of the absence of God’s uniting spirit. All must be in complete agreement. (1 Cor 1:10) It is God who does the “calling”….that is not even something we can volunteer for, no matter how sincere we are. We are happy with whatever role God gives us in the ”new earth” to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

Sorry for the detail but it’s necessary to get the whole picture rather than bits of it that are hard to put together.
Does this answer your question?
 
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St. SteVen

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So who are coming back in this general resurrection of mankind? Jesus said it was “those who did good things” as well as “those who practiced vile things”….all done before Christ had offered himself for mankind, providing the basis for their forgiveness. These are the ones who had no exposure to the true God, or knowledge of the redeeming power of his Christ. Those who died without law cannot be judged by it. God will not punish anyone who has acted in genuine ignorance through circumstances beyond their control.
Wasn't this taken care of in the "Harrowing of Hell"?
Where was Jesus for three days before his resurrection?
(the heart of the earth = the realm of the dead)
He took captivity captive. Descended before he ascended.
Preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah.

But I agree that since this happened once, it can and will happen again.
And not limited to the ignorant. God will restore all things.

/
 

Aunty Jane

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Wasn't this taken care of in the "Harrowing of Hell"?
Sorry…what???? What on earth is the “harrowing of hell”?
Never heard of it. Perhaps it is connected with the KJV, then it would be an error in translation like the very word “hell” itself.
Where was Jesus for three days before his resurrection?
(the heart of the earth = the realm of the dead)
What was “Sheol” to a Jew? And I’m not talking about apostate Judaism, but the original Jewish faith that was based on the word of God.
Solomon wrote…
”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave,(sheol) where you are going. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)

So again, what religion was Jesus, and what scripture did he teach from? What did ancient Jews (as opposed to more modern day Judaism) understand about the condition of the dead? They did not have any belief in an immortal soul that departed from the body at death. That idea was picked up from pagan Greek notions…not from scripture. The dead “slept” in sheol, unconscious and unable to interact with the living in any way. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he raised him back to life? (John 11:11-14)

So where was Jesus for the three days between his death and resurrection….he himself tells us…
Matthew 12:
”…the Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet. 40 For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.”

Jesus did not go anywhere for the whole time it was prophesied that he would he held in sheol, just as Jonah was confined to the belly of the fish, so Jesus was confined in unconscious death in the grave.
If you consult the Jewish Tanakh, “Sheol” is translated as simply “the grave”….the place where all the dead end up, righteous or not. That is why Jesus can call both from the same place.

He took captivity captive.
Is that what it really says? The NASB renders that verse…”
“Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”


When Paul used the expression “gifts in men,” he was quoting King David, who had said of Jehovah: “You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men.” (Psalm 68:18) After the Israelites had been in the Promised Land for some years, Jehovah figuratively “ascended” Mount Zion and made Jerusalem the capital of the kingdom of Israel with David as its king. But who were the “gifts in the form of men”? They were men taken captive during the conquest of the land. Some of these captives were later made available to the Levites to help with the work at the tabernacle. (Ezra 8:20)
Who were the captives Jesus took? The “gifts in men” he took away from Satan and showed them how to take care of his disciples after he left the earth…the ones who continued to look after his interests on earth.

Descended before he ascended.
Yes, he came down from heaven and carried out his commission before ascending back to where he was before.
Preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah.
The “spirits in prison” to whom Jesus preached were the demons who had materialized in Noah’s day, causing God to take drastic action to force these wicked spirits back to the spirit realm where God took away their ability to make human bodies for themselves. Their wicked offspring (Nephilim) perished in the flood as well as the humans they influenced, because they had no right to exist.
But the scriptures do not say that he did this during the three days he was in his grave. It was after his resurrection, whilst in spirit form.
But I agree that since this happened once, it can and will happen again
There is much that is pictorial in the scriptures. As Peter said of those ignoring the warning example of Noah’s day…….
“For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.” (2 Peter 3:5-7)

The destruction of “ungodly people” is their elimination from existence because there will be no ungodly people left to destroy the future peace and happiness in the “new earth”….”righteousness“ is to be the expectation there. ( 2 Peter 3:13) We all have our opportunity in this life to show God who we are…..he is looking for obedient ones, not just good people, because some of the most dedicated humanitarians are atheists. So it’s about the two most important commandments that Jesus stated…..Love for God with one’s whole heart, soul, mind and strength is first and foremost, and secondly to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Those who have no love for God will not be found in the world to come, no matter how much they love humanity or the earth, or it’s creatures.
And not limited to the ignorant. God will restore all things.
If you believe that the human race has endured all these thousands of years of pain and suffering only to get a small slap on the wrist for their wickedness, then think again. What was the purpose of subjecting all humanity to this life of sin and death in the first place? It was to show them where disobedience to God leads, because they could not be told. Giving them first hand experience, leaves no room for excuses.
The “ungodly” will have no future.

God will restore all things, but he has no room for those who have not learned the lessons that living this life has provided.
 

SavedByTheLord

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Works for salvation prevent salvation and must be repented of. We are not under the law

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Eph 2:8-9

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Rom 11:6

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Rom 4:4-5

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, - Heb 6:1

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. - Heb 4:10

The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. - John 7:7

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. - John 6:28-29

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; - Titus 3:5

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Rom 4:6-8

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. - Rom 4:2

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Gal 2:16

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? - Gal 3:2,5

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. - Gal 3:10

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. - Rom 6:14

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: - Gal 3:13

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. - John 1:17

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: - Heb 10:11

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. - Titus 1:16

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. - Gal 4:9-11

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. - John 19:30

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - Gal 5:4

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. - Gal 5:9

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. - Gal 3:21-22

See also Rom 3:9-20, Rom 9:30-33, Rom 10:1-4, Gal 2:21, Gal 3:17-18, Titus 3:9-11, 1 Tim 1:3-7, 2 Tim 1:9

All scripture passages and references are from the King James Bible, the word of God in English.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Works for salvation prevent salvation and must be repented of. We are not under the law

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Eph 2:8-9
Lets just consider this for a moment.

I agree we are saved by grace.... it is a gift.

But does that mean we should do no works???? I cannot believe that.

One needs to clarify the difference between just being a good old boy scout or girl scout against doing something because you want those brownie points in heaven.

When I jump to help someone in need I do not do it because God expects me to, I do it because I try to live by the "Do unto others" golden rule. NOT that I expect someone to jump to help me... but because it is the right
thing to do.

Now I have a neighbor who is into helping everyone as much as he can as time permits. Shovels everyone driveways in the winter, rakes leaves for those who can't. Even carries down garbage or brings up mail... all the while working 12 hour days and visiting his dementia mom daily.

He never fails to call and say he is going to the store and do wwe need anything....

And he is running himself ragged.

I told him he has to slow down. He says he cannot. I told him how grateful we are and we do pay him some
that he does not expect... and on more then one occasion he has said "It is what God wants"

Is this his only reason? I do not know.... But I do know he used to be a member of a RCC and had a falling away from there... ( never said over what) but I have witnessed once works is ingrained in you it sticks....

There needs to be specification on exactly what works are for and why
 

SavedByTheLord

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Lets just consider this for a moment.

I agree we are saved by grace.... it is a gift.

But does that mean we should do no works???? I cannot believe that.

One needs to clarify the difference between just being a good old boy scout or girl scout against doing something because you want those brownie points in heaven.

When I jump to help someone in need I do not do it because God expects me to, I do it because I try to live by the "Do unto others" golden rule. NOT that I expect someone to jump to help me... but because it is the right
thing to do.

Now I have a neighbor who is into helping everyone as much as he can as time permits. Shovels everyone driveways in the winter, rakes leaves for those who can't. Even carries down garbage or brings up mail... all the while working 12 hour days and visiting his dementia mom daily.

He never fails to call and say he is going to the store and do wwe need anything....

And he is running himself ragged.

I told him he has to slow down. He says he cannot. I told him how grateful we are and we do pay him some
that he does not expect... and on more then one occasion he has said "It is what God wants"

Is this his only reason? I do not know.... But I do know he used to be a member of a RCC and had a falling away from there... ( never said over what) but I have witnessed once works is ingrained in you it sticks....

There needs to be specification on exactly what works are for and why
Here is a good passage that shows good works would be the result of salvation not the cause of or required for salvation.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

But God is the one who will judge whether any works are good or evil. And of course, there can be no good works without being saved by God's standards.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. - Ecc 12:14

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:5