Which method of execution is accurate and true? A or B?

[marks]

Exousia? Maybe you should try looking the word up instead of twisting scripture?

Strong's Concordance
exousia: power to act, authority
Original Word: ἐξουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: power to act, authority
Usage: (a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.

Um . . . is this to me?

If it is, well, why do you think I've not studied this word? And your first definition there is "power to act". So there ya' go.

Tossing out accusations of twisting Scripture, that gets boring fast. Ad Hominems means you are running out of arguments, or are getting angry, or both.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

Doesn't matter Brother Rando, no one knows, therefore strictly opinion. The Bible states very clearly Jesus died on a Stauros, that is what I teach anyway. The way people view it is their own personal choice. The literal definition of stauros is an upright pole/stake. I personally believe that is the actual device that Jesus died on, a stake. Stake or cross can not be proven either way, and what is the point, what was important was Jesus ransom sacrifice that was offered up.

That’s just another device the WTS uses to claim that only they have the truth in all areas.

They even know how Jesus died, better than anyone else does.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

Actually, I use a wide number of translations as well as the Greek texts. I've found over the years that the KJV is the most like reading the Greek but in English.

If you want to make an issue of "exousia", no matter, it means authority, or some other mandate to accomplish the purpose. It's like saying, the court has power to put you in jail, or, the court has authority to put you in jail, it's really saying the same thing. I don't mind sticking with "authority". Authority without power, what is that?

Now, concerning "I lay it down", and, "I take it back again", these do not mean what your translation says.

But why would you make the erroneous assumption that because I prefer a certain translation, that I don't read others? I definitely recommend the KJV to you in particular, as I believe it to be much more accurate then what you've been presenting.

Much love!

Their New World Translation doesn’t qualify as a Bible, says actual degreed biblical scholars.

I believe they refer to it as a sectarian paraphrase.

BTW I do believe that Young’s Literal Translation reads closest to the Greek.

Maranatha

 

[BroRando]

Their New World Translation doesn’t qualify as a Bible, says actual degreed biblical scholars.

I believe they refer to it as a sectarian paraphrase.

BTW I do believe that Young’s Literal Translation reads closest to the Greek.

Maranatha

The NWT is not a Christendom Bible, it's the Christian Bible. There's a Huge Difference.
Jesus is not 'God the Son' but rather the Christ the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16) There's a Huge Difference.

 

[marks]

Their New World Translation doesn’t qualify as a Bible, says actual degreed biblical scholars.

I believe they refer to it as a sectarian paraphrase.

BTW I do believe that Young’s Literal Translation reads closest to the Greek.

Maranatha

Isn't that the one where one of the key people responsible was unable to translate a simple passage from John for a court? Am I thinking of something else?

I've found their "Kingdom Interlinear" to be more accurate than the New World. But even when I showed a Jehovah's Witness one time how their own version of the Bible didn't support his doctrines, it didn't matter to him.

I like Young's a lot. Also J.P. Green. So then I'd like to add, I prefer to read a little less choppy than Young. But he's one of my first go-to's.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

The CROSS

Medically speaking it has been said the conjunctive tissue in the hand is stronger than a rope. So nails in your hands would hold you weight.
----
The death of Christ began with His flogging, but the cross (stauros) finished the job.
Just getting nails in your hands and feet doesn't kill you. Without water, you will die in about four days. Jesus was tortured by the flogging, He was exhausted and half dead, but let me explain to you what death on the cross is caused by. Asphyxiation. When your arms are spread out, it is difficult to pull yourself up for a breath. Yes, your chest muscles are stretched also and you need to use them to expand your chest to breathe. Having the nails in your hands is excruciating pain (btw, that word came from "crux", the cross) because of the nerves severed.
The other way to get a breath was to push up with your feet which were also nailed and suffering excruciating pain. So they slowing died of asphyxiation and if they endured that for days, their legs weren't broken or dehydration finished them. Again Jesus was already half dead.
Now to speed up their process, the Romans broke the legs of the victims so they could no longer push themselves up for a breath, but Jesus was already dead when the Romans checked by piercing him with a sword in His side.
We see in the Olympics, the gymnists on the rings who hold the iron cross for a few seconds. So after hanging for hours the victims have no strength. In addition to this, the weight of your body can easily dislocate your shoulders/joints. So on the cross, one cannot use their arms. On a torture stake, it would be much easier to pull yourself up and so even if they broke your legs you could live much longer than being nailed to a cross.
Jesus died within six hours. From both the extreme measure of flogging (with a whip that had sharp pieces of bones tied to it that tear your flesh) and asphyxiation on a cross.

Aside from all this, we are talking about the most important event in history - does anyone in the world question if Jesus died on a cross - except JW's? Maybe they should travel around the world and see millions of crosses planted all over the world. Or go to Greece and ask them what stauros means. Do they think eye witnesses got the most important story in history wrong?
Likely, when they get to heaven, Jesus will greet them with a hug, introduce them to the archangel Michael and then give them a necklace with a cross to wear on your neck for all eternity!

The Bible describes Jesus being made to carry the cross piece to His crucifixion.

I do believe we have historical accounts that Rome executed common criminals using a cross, not a stake.

The WTS only insists it was a torture stake, to “prove” they alone have the truth about everything, even concerning His death.

They alone also know that Jesus rose an invisible spirit, never to be seen again.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

The NWT is not a Christendom Bible, it's the Christian Bible. There's a Huge Difference.
Jesus is not 'God the Son' but rather the Christ the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16) There's a Huge Difference.

Oh yeah, I was forgetting their false claim that Christians are of the category called ‘Christendom’ and that Jehovahs judgment will first fall on us - who have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and have been born again, something the WTS has no clue about, but will be surprised to see which group is standing in the goat line, and which of us will be in the sheep line, at judgment.

Did you ever wonder why the New Testament witnesses are called Jesus witnesses, not Jehovahs witnesses?

Jesus told “Christendom” you shall be MY witnesses.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Baruch HaShem HaMaschiach Yehoshua

 

[BroRando]

The Bible describes Jesus being made to carry the cross piece to His crucifixion.

I do believe we have historical accounts that Rome executed common criminals using a cross, not a stake.

The WTS only insists it was a torture stake, to “prove” they alone have the truth about everything, even concerning His death.

They alone also know that Jesus rose an invisible spirit, never to be seen again.

Maranatha

You're spewing half truths and lies. I never stated the Romans never used crosses to kill their victims. The T bar or (t) is like an altar to the trintarian god Tammuz. Jesus was begging his Father not to have that type of death.

So his death wasn't a religious one to the Romans but rather a political one. A stauros was used.

 

[Curtis]

Oh yeah, I was forgetting their false claim that Christians are of the category called ‘Christendom’ and that Jehovahs judgment will first fall on us - who have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and have been born again, something the WTS has no clue about, but will be surprised to see which group is standing in the goat line, and which of us will be in the sheep line, at judgment.

Did you ever wonder why the New Testament witnesses are called Jesus witnesses, not Jehovahs witnesses?

Jesus told “Christendom” you shall be MY witnesses.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Baruch HaShem HaMaschiach Yehoshua

 

[BroRando]

Oh yeah, I was forgetting their false claim that Christians are of the category called ‘Christendom’ and that Jehovahs judgment will first fall on us - who have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and have been born again, something the WTS has no clue about, but will be surprised to see which group is standing in the goat line, and which of us will be in the sheep line, at judgment.

Did you ever wonder why the New Testament witnesses are called Jesus witnesses, not Jehovahs witnesses?

Jesus told “Christendom” you shall be MY witnesses.

Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Baruch HaShem HaMaschiach Yehoshua

To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹaz write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: (Rev 3:14)

 

[Curtis]

You're spewing half truths and lies. I never stated the Romans never used crosses to kill their victims. The T bar or (t) is like an altar to the trintarian god Tammuz. Jesus was begging his Father not to have that type of death.

So his death wasn't a religious one to the Romans but rather a political one. A starous was used.

Stauros can mean both. Look it up. I did.

Jesus begged nothing about which way He would die. That’s a fantasy.

The cup of suffering was his death for our sins. How He was to die was not part of His Gethsemane prayer.

Stauros:

G4716 (Strong)

σταυρός

stauros

stow-ros'

From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.

Total KJV occurrences: 28

Just using the word does not prove He died on a pole, or “torture stake “

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹaz write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: (Rev 3:14)

Now look up what that means. It means the beginner of creation, or the author of creation, not the first thing that was created.

Colossians 1:16, Jesus created every single thing that was made, without exception.

Did Jesus therefore create Himself? Good trick, creating yourself.

ISV:
Rev 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

Maranatha

 

[BroRando]

Now look up what that means. It means the beginner of creation, or the author of creation, not the first thing that was created.

Colossians 1:16, Jesus created every single thing that was made, without exception.

Did Jesus therefore create Himself? Good trick, creating yourself.

ISV:
Rev 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

Maranatha

The Greek exposes your deception. Can read that Jesus is the Beginning of Creation.
Revelation 3:14 Interlinear: 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

Beginning is another Feminine noun describing Jesus Christ.
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
HELPS Word-studies
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

 

[Curtis]

The Greek exposes your deception. Can read that Jesus is the Beginning of Creation.
Revelation 3:14 Interlinear: 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

Beginning is another Feminine noun describing Jesus Christ.
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
HELPS Word-studies
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

View attachment 16404

Arche can mean the beginning of a thing, the beginner of a thing, or the head of a thing, leaving the correct one of the three meanings in your proof text discernible by looking at other passages, such as Colossians 1:16, where Jesus made all things that were created, and John 1:3, without Jesus, nothing was made that was made.

Therefore Jesus couldn’t possibly be the first of those things that were created, since He made all things, meaning that He isn’t the beginning of creation, but the BEGINNER of creation - the Chief - the head honcho.

And this fact is shown in many translations of the Bible.

YLT:
Rev 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;

TLV:
Rev 3:14 To the angel of Messiah’s community in Laodicea write: “Thus says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Originator of God’s creation:

ISV:
Rev 3:14 "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

NIV:
3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation

David Guzik:

Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. The idea behind the word for beginning [the ancient Greek word arche] is that of a “ruler, source, or origin,” not of first in a sequential order. This verse does not teach that Jesus was the first being created, but that He is the ruler, source, and origin of all creation. It has the idea of first in prominence more than first in sequence.

 

[BroRando]

Therefore Jesus couldn’t possibly be the first of those things that were created, since He made all things, meaning that He isn’t the beginning of creation, but the BEGINNER of creation - the Chief - the head honcho.

Your favorite translation: Young's

YLT:
Rev 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;

Beginning is another Feminine noun describing Jesus Christ.
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

HELPS Word-studies
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (Col 1:15)

New Living Translation
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

He released His Spirit. He said no one took His life, but He had the power to lay it down, and the power to take it back up again.

Much love!

Right, He died when He decided it was time. Tetelestai. That is an interesting point,
nobody can release their spirit at will when they are being tortured or just dying with a terminal disease.
> The doctor tells you,."I'm sorry but after all the tests and several doctors diagnosis, you have a debilitating incurable disease. Gradually you will lose all functions, half your weight, your mind, and the pain will be unbearible ... you have six month's to live at best." "Um, I think I'll just say goodbye to everyone and spare myself the agony and release my spirit --- thank you very much!"

 

[Robert Gwin]

That’s just another device the WTS uses to claim that only they have the truth in all areas.

They even know how Jesus died, better than anyone else does.

Shalom

Yes sir, I think they are correct as well. Why? Because of the mode of death, suffocation is the actual way a person dies, being hung with hands overhead makes breathing much more difficult than when spread horizontally.

I prefer accuracy, so if the topic comes up, I never say Jesus died on a cross, I use the actual term stauros, the person will see his own vision of what that is. Like you mentioned, we do try to have the truth in all areas.

 

[Curtis]

Your favorite translation: Young's

YLT:
Rev 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;

Beginning is another Feminine noun describing Jesus Christ.
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

HELPS Word-studies
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (Col 1:15)

New Living Translation
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

He couldn’t be the Chief of creation if He was just another Indian, so you’re making my case for me.

Thanks.

 

[BroRando]

He couldn’t be the Chief of creation if He was just another Indian, so you’re making my case for me.

Thanks.

Acts 3:15
whereas you killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Doctrinal Disputes ... Oh my!

After years of disputes with my dear Jehovah Witness friend, we have both found resolve, neutral ground: a belief in God, The Bible, we are followers of Jesus, practice Biblical principles, haters of sin, ... actually many things on the surface, but avoid deep theological discussions though.
We stay away from discussions about the cross, about the deity of Christ or Him being Michael incognito, the 144k limited eternal capacity of heaven, our spiritual nature, soul sleep, Hades, being born again with spiritual security, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, spiritual gifts and actually possessing an invisible spirit.
I realize I will never convince or change my friend's mind and vs. versa. But after long spurts of peaceful dialogue, we get motivated to throw in a few digs ... to no avail, oops, we should know better, it's useless. I figure it will be a lot easier for God to correct 8 or 9 million Jehovah Witnesses, when they arrive than it will be to correct 2.65 billion. Of course He will be plenty busy correcting Catholics and their flaws. I am prepared to learn some things I had misunderstood as well.
This is reality folks, there is a wall between us that only God Himself will dissolve.