Which method of execution is accurate and true? A or B?

[BroRando]

Doctrinal Disputes ... Oh my!

After years of disputes with my dear Jehovah Witness friend, we have both found resolve, neutral ground: a belief in God, The Bible, we are followers of Jesus, practice Biblical principles, haters of sin, ... actually many things on the surface, but avoid deep theological discussions though.
We stay away from discussions about the cross, about the deity of Christ or Him being Michael incognito, the 144k limited eternal capacity of heaven, our spiritual nature, soul sleep, Hades, being born again with spiritual security, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, spiritual gifts and actually possessing an invisible spirit.
I realize I will never convince or change my friend's mind and vs. versa. But after long spurts of peaceful dialogue, we get motivated to throw in a few digs ... to no avail, oops, we should know better, it's useless. I figure it will be a lot easier for God to correct 8 or 9 million Jehovah Witnesses, when they arrive than it will be to correct 2.65 billion. Of course He will be plenty busy correcting Catholics and their flaws. I am prepared to learn some things I had misunderstood as well.
This is reality folks, there is a wall between us that only God Himself will dissolve.

"During that time {Jesus Christ} will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2)

"And war broke out in heaven: {Jesus Christ and his angels} battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven." (Rev 12:7-8)

And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .

 

[BroRando]

He couldn’t be the Chief of creation if He was just another Indian, so you’re making my case for me.

Thanks.

• Michael is “the archangel.” (Jude 9) The title “archangel,” meaning “chief of the angels,” appears in only two Bible verses. In both cases, the word is singular, suggesting that only one angel bears that title. One of those verses states that the resurrected Lord Jesus “will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) Jesus has “an archangel’s voice” because he is the archangel, Michael.
  

 

[Triumph1300]

as I believe it to be much more accurate then what you've been presenting

It's a well known fact that JW's print whatever they like in their central printing plant.
Beats me why the cross should be open for discussion on this forum.
History tells us that the Romans nailed criminals to a cross.
They considered him a criminal, so that's what they did.
I don't really care what JW's are running through their printing presses.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"During that time {Jesus Christ} will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2)

"And war broke out in heaven: {Jesus Christ and his angels} battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven." (Rev 12:7-8)

And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .

Did you ever read at the end of the Bible where it says if you add to these words ... something nad will happen to you? Be careful. Don't degrade Jesus. Hebrews 1 makes it clear, He is above the angels. The Father refers to Him as God.

 

[marks]

• Michael is “the archangel.” (Jude 9) The title “archangel,” meaning “chief of the angels,” appears in only two Bible verses. In both cases, the word is singular, suggesting that only one angel bears that title. One of those verses states that the resurrected Lord Jesus “will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) Jesus has “an archangel’s voice” because he is the archangel, Michael.

Of course Jesus is not an angel, a created being made for the purpose of serving. Ministering spirits who minister to those inheriting salvation.

Jesus, it is written, took on the form of a servant. Meaning, that's not what He was prior. So no, Jesus is not a "created angel" created to serve.

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

• Michael is “the archangel.” (Jude 9) The title “archangel,” meaning “chief of the angels,” appears in only two Bible verses. In both cases, the word is singular, suggesting that only one angel bears that title. One of those verses states that the resurrected Lord Jesus “will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) Jesus has “an archangel’s voice” because he is the archangel, Michael.

It depends on how you interpret that verse. He will descend "with" the voice of an archangel - it doesnt .ean he is an archangel. He comes with His angels. He gives the command and his angels obey, He looks over to Michael, gives him a nod and Michael's voice commands the angels. Jesus is the Creator. (Col. 1:16, 17) He created all things visible and invisible, that means the universe and the angels. On Him all things consist. Do you know what that means? All things down to atomic energy and outward to the universe is held together by His power. Michael will tell you about it some day.
Until then watch out, it may happen someday that all of a sudden as you are spreading this falsehood about Jesus being MIchael, thinking you are doing something good, an invisible hand slaps you right upside your head - that will be Michael.

 

[BroRando]

Did you ever read at the end of the Bible where it says if you add to these words ... something nad will happen to you? Be careful. Don't degrade Jesus. Hebrews 1 makes it clear, He is above the angels. The Father refers to Him as God.

I have no need to degrade Jesus... You already did that by claiming Jesus was unable to defeat Satan from heaven... I'm simply disagreeing with you.


So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. (Hebrews 1:4) So with his New Name Jesus, he becomes High Priest and Mediator. Michael is the one given the New Name to the Glory of His God and Father in (Philippians 2:8-11)

But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” (Hebrews 1:8)

You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” (Hebrews 1:9)

Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek. (Hebrews 5:8-10)

"During that time {Jesus Christ} will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2)

"And war broke out in heaven: {Jesus Christ and his angels} battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven." (Rev 12:7-8)

 

[post]

Which method of execution is accurate and true? A or B?
View attachment 16389
In order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled, “He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken.”
(Psalm 34:20) Which method of death is accurate and true?

Driving a nail through the hand would of broken bones. And if the nail should be placed between the fingers, the flesh would easily tear under the weight. But if a nail was driven through his flesh between the bones that surrounded the nail, not only would the prophecy be fulfilled but it would attach the body to the stauros.

Broken bones would have hasten his death and the torture would have been cut short. Jesus was already beaten, tortured, and flogged to the point of exhaustion that a bystander was compelled into service to carry his torture stake.

See X-ray...

You don't have to have a pole instead of a cross to put a nail efficiently between the two arm bones at the wrist, not breaking them.

Thw Romans crucified huge numbers of people. We have historical evidence of how they did it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.

God became a man, partly to be our High Priest. It was necessary for the High Priest to perform the final sacrifice the our Atonement. He offered Himself, the sacrificial Lamb.

So with his New Name Jesus, he becomes High Priest and Mediator. Michael is the one given the New Name to the Glory of His God and Father in

Oh, I see?.He goes by Jesus for the entire Bible, then in one verse in Rev. 12, He becomes Michael again and then back to Jesus.
I think you are confused.

Here is a more accurate version of Hebrews 1:8, when the Father says to His Son,
"but of the Son [he saith,] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
You really need to chuck the New World Translation. Scholars throughout the world claim that it is the only Bible version that was translated to conform to a religious belief system. Until the 1950's, JW's used the American Standard Version, but you kept coming across verses that conflicted with your theology, so you changed them.
Frederick Franz had two years of Greek and in a courtroom of law, he was unable to translate one verse of Hebrew. This was the hack that wrote your NWT. Since then, I don't know, other hacks got involved.

The death and resurrection was a defeat of Satan. Christians are saved. We have passes from death to life, spiritually born again - something else you don't grasp.
You don't even believe you are saved. You are uncertain and must jump over numerous hurdles for a thousand years before you will know for sure. That is not the faith that God gives. Read Hebrews 11:1 and find out. It is the sureness and confidence of things hoped for, things unseen, specifically salvation that Jesus promised.
Jesus said if you believe in Him you will have life. Don't add to it any works or take away from the gift.

 

[Curtis]

Yes sir, I think they are correct as well. Why? Because of the mode of death, suffocation is the actual way a person dies, being hung with hands overhead makes breathing much more difficult than when spread horizontally.

I prefer accuracy, so if the topic comes up, I never say Jesus died on a cross, I use the actual term stauros, the person will see his own vision of what that is. Like you mentioned, we do try to have the truth in all areas.

Besides a little thing called history, that says Rome executed common criminals using a cross, and besides the fact that the Bible says Jesus was forced to carry the T bar part of the cross on the via dela. rosa, the way of suffering - and Simon finished carrying it for Him - the word STAUROS can be a Pole, or a cross, not just a pole, as the watchtower claims.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[BroRando]

Oh, I see?.He goes by Jesus for the entire Bible, then in one verse in Rev. 12, He becomes Michael again and then back to Jesus.
I think you are confused.

Your rejection that Jesus Christ was unable to defeat Satan and his angels from Heaven is simply a lie by trinitarians. So I will disagree you whole heartedly.

Trinitarians also claim Jesus Christ has no power over Satan to resurrect people from Hell which is mankind's common grave. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Rev 20:13)

Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek. (Hebrews 5:8-10)

So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. (Hebrews 1:4) So with his New Name Jesus, he becomes High Priest and Mediator. Michael is the one given the New Name to the Glory of His God and Father in (Philippians 2:8-11)

He is not God but rather the mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24
and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

Galatians 3:19
Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the offspring should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Your rejection that Jesus Christ was unable to defeat Satan and his angels from Heaven is simply a lie by trinitarians. So I will disagree you whole heartedly.

Bearing false witness again?
Didn't you get the memo? Jesus defeated Satan on the CROSS.
And then He rose _ from the dead_ in the third day.
Satan still has many, in fact, most of the world in bondage, but the door is open to eternal life for thise who believe. Death has no sting anymore.
When Jesus literally and physically returns for JUDGMENT, He will lock Satan and his horde up in the Abyss for 1000 years and destroy all those who have taken the mark of the beast.

Trinitarians also claim Jesus Christ has no power over Satan to resurrect people from Hell which is mankind's common grave. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Rev 20:13)

That word for Hell is mistranslated. It is Sheol, Hades, the underworld, deep below the surface of the earth. It is simply caverns of darkness where the unbelieving dead are in prison, awaiting their final judgment, when they will be resurrected just to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (which can correctly be called Hell). Death and Hades are cast into the Lake. That means all who were in it.
I can teach you about Hades, but you would not receive it because JW org. has distorted that concept as well as many others.
You are not teachable and so it is a futile discussion that I really don't care to continue. Go your way with what you believe. Your efforts in this forum are futile - just as they are when you spend hundreds of hours every year knocking on doors. There is no fruit in your labor because the Holy Spirit does not grow churches with false doctrines.
Your conventions are dead too, I have been to them. It is really sad.
I have been to the meetings as well, where each member of the congregation takes his turn teaching. I was shocked, thinking thjs huybdkesnt knkwnwhat he is talking about and as I look at the whole congregation nodding their heada in agreement, Injust thought OMG. A their teaching is usually tainted with something that is false (which is actually just a review of the Watchtower magazine that they regurgitate back like children reading from a script). They force feed you every week and don't even allow you to go off script. You are in essence brain washed, not allowed to think for yourseves.
Really, you would be much better off if you chucked the counterfeit Bible called the New World Ttranslation and the Watchtower Magazine and got disfellowshipped! Then go out and buy yourself a NKJ, NASB or any one of the many popular versions and just pray and read the Bible only.

 

[BroRando]

I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! (Revelation 12:10)

"And war broke out in heaven: {Jesus Christ and his angels} battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven." (Rev 12:7-8) Who defeated Satan if not Christ?

Most trinitarians preach a false doctrine that Jesus never died, therefore they claim an eternal burning hell because they deny the Power of Christ. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Rev 20:13)

But now Ronald claims "That word for Hell is mistranslated." So now Ronald is saying the King James Bible is a False a Corrupt Bible? (Rev 20:13) REVELATION 20:13 KJV "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in..."

 

[Curtis]

• Michael is “the archangel.” (Jude 9) The title “archangel,” meaning “chief of the angels,” appears in only two Bible verses. In both cases, the word is singular, suggesting that only one angel bears that title. One of those verses states that the resurrected Lord Jesus “will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) Jesus has “an archangel’s voice” because he is the archangel, Michael.

Jesus also comes with a trumpet call, but He’s not a trumpet, either.

He’s accompanied by an angel and has a trumpet.

He isn’t an angel who got promoted to being A God as the NWT so called bible butchers John 1:1 into saying.

God actually says that Jesus is not an angel.

GNB version:

Heb 1:13 God never said to any of his angels: "Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies as a footstool under your feet."

Heb 1:14 What are the angels, then? They are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.

Shalom

 

[BroRando]

Jesus also comes with a trumpet call, but He’s not a trumpet, either.

He’s accompanied by an angel and has a trumpet.

He isn’t an angel who got promoted to being A God as the NWT so called bible butchers John 1:1 into saying.

God actually says that Jesus is not an angel.

GNB version:

Heb 1:13 God never said to any of his angels: "Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies as a footstool under your feet."

Heb 1:14 What are the angels, then? They are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.

Shalom

the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

• Commanding Call, Archangels' Voice, and God's Trumpet all have to do with the Word of God.

the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

• Notice those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
• Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, (John 5:28-29)
  
• Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; (John 11:25)

Then again, we have (Daniel 12:1-2)

• "During that time {Jesus Christ} will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2)

The Apostle Paul answers his own question in Hebrews.

• So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” (Hebrews 5:5)
  
• Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. (Hebrews 5:8)
  
• All angels are called sons of the True God (Genesis 6:2)
• Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll* it is written about me) to do your will, O God. (Hebrews 10:7)

“For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” (Acts 27:23 KJV)

 

[BroRando]

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:5)

So Christ also glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but he that spake unto him, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee: (Hebrews 5:5)

 

[Curtis]

the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

• Commanding Call, Archangels' Voice, and God's Trumpet all have to do with the Word of God.

the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

• Notice those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
• Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, (John 5:28-29)
  
• Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; (John 11:25)

Then again, we have (Daniel 12:1-2)

The Apostle Paul answers his own question in Hebrews.

• So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” (Hebrews 5:5)
  
• Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. (Hebrews 5:8)
  
• All angels are called sons of the True God (Genesis 6:2)
• Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll* it is written about me) to do your will, O God. (Hebrews 10:7)

“For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” (Acts 27:23 KJV)

You posted a lot of words that are not proof that Jesus is or was an angel

 

[Robert Gwin]

Besides a little thing called history, that says Rome executed common criminals using a cross, and besides the fact that the Bible says Jesus was forced to carry the T bar part of the cross on the via dela. rosa, the way of suffering - and Simon finished carrying it for Him - the word STAUROS can be a Pole, or a cross, not just a pole, as the watchtower claims.

Shalom Aleichem

There were pictures by historians that showed both, I personally think it was an upright pole for the reasons I stated, the Bible did not say Crux, ever! It used the term stauros, that is what I teach Curt. I strive for accuracy as I am sure you would believe God would want. You definitely cannot go wrong by teaching what the Bible truly stated, and let the recipient view in his own mind how he perceives the word.

May I ask you if you think it is a critical matter?

 

[BroRando]

One should note as for hands and wrists:

Crownjewel82 from CSE - The word used in the Bible can mean any part of the hand or arm. People who study crucifixion in general found that the nails most often went through the wrist and that the weight of the body would cause the nail to tear through the flesh of the hand as is most commonly depicted in Christian art. Thus, a fairly common view is that the nails actually went through the wrist.

Nail placement
Crucifixion window by Henry E. Sharp, 1872, in St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church, Charleston, South Carolina
In popular depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus (possibly because in translations of John 20:25 the wounds are described as being "in his hands"), Jesus is shown with nails in his hands. But in Greek the word "χείρ", usually translated as "hand", could refer to the entire portion of the arm below the elbow,[38] and to denote the hand as distinct from the arm some other word could be added, as "ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα" (he wounded the end of the χείρ, i.e., "he wounded her in the hand".[39]

Notes - Crucifixion - Wikipedia

 

[BroRando]

There were pictures by historians that showed both, I personally think it was an upright pole for the reasons I stated, the Bible did not say Crux, ever! It used the term stauros, that is what I teach Curt. I strive for accuracy as I am sure you would believe God would want. You definitely cannot go wrong by teaching what the Bible truly stated, and let the recipient view in his own mind how he perceives the word.

May I ask you if you think it is a critical matter?

The truth cannot be long hidden for the righteous of heart.

Nail placement
Crucifixion window by Henry E. Sharp, 1872, in St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church, Charleston, South Carolina
In popular depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus (possibly because in translations of John 20:25 the wounds are described as being "in his hands"), Jesus is shown with nails in his hands. But in Greek the word "χείρ", usually translated as "hand", could refer to the entire portion of the arm below the elbow,[38] and to denote the hand as distinct from the arm some other word could be added, as "ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα" (he wounded the end of the χείρ, i.e., "he wounded her in the hand".[39]