I think that you'll have your answers after the eternal gospel is understood (the eternal gospel is for the millennium, but is already found in scripture, somewhat like a puzzle that has to be put together)
Who and what is the antichrist?
- Thread starter Marty fox
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I think that you're better off with the biblical description and the biblical tests of the Spirit, but then I'm a bit close to the subject matter.
Stumpmaster
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It's just that we'll be seeing greater works, prepared beforehand by the Father, that the saints will be walking in. You don't want to confuse those works done in Christ, with the works of the devil, but some will.
The definition and test in 1 John are true and very practical.
When I encounter someone with Cultic notions or strange doctrines on Christian forums, the first thing I try to do is ask them who Jesus is. They usually disappear rather than answer, but some give answers that deny His person as the Risen Lord and only begotten of the Father, equal to God, and one in being. These I uncover and usually share the gospel with before they too disappear.
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 1John 4:1-3
This is very specific instruction and it's true. We've been instructed to do this, so no Christian should object to such tests, and they work, given that the one who asks has the Spirit of Christ within Him. The liar isn't subject to us, but every spirit is subject to our Lord, and consequently to His Spirit. Anyone that knows Him has no problem confessing Him and is usually very happy to do so. Who doesn't like sharing their faith in their savior? It's a different story with a gun pointed at your head, and I don't recommend putting people to such a test (its entirely unnecessary), but people under persecution have done so, and some martyrs have died in a similar fashion.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I meant how are you "close to the subject matter". The anti-Strongs Concordance sentiment is noted, but those who decry it never improve on it, I find.
Don't exactly know what you mean with regard to Strong's concordance. I recieved an old hard bound edition as a gift from the Pastor who baptized me as an adult, and it was the first study tool I owned before any bible software was available to me. I sometimes woke up in the middle of the night to look things up in it, and was never disappointed with the definitions. (Our subconscious mind can continue problem solving while we're asleep, and scripture tells us that God sometimes instructs us in our sleep.) I've always found the word of God to hold true in every circumstance. How could it do any less? I just like to point out that neither the King James translation or the concordance are inspired, and both are subject to translational error. When in doubt about the translators understanding, I go to a literal translation for comparison, but I don't know the original languages and I don't care enough about them to learn them. His Spirit is capable of dividing truth anywhere and from anything and He teaches us discernment, sometimes even giving us the ability to discern spirits. An obvious bad translation like the New World translation or JPS Tanaach denies the person of Christ, but sincere translations really don't vary much in their meaning and the Holy Spirit certainly knows what He meant to say. He isn't thwarted by human error.
With regard to the subject matter, well, we all tend to speak to unclean spirits on a daily basis unless we live in isolation. Every unregenerate soul that's sinned is unclean. But since my mom saw fit to dedicate me to the Lord from birth (Catholics get real old Testament sometimes) and since the devil has ears, I've had many strange encounters through my life with people (sometimes animals) who never seemed quite alone and appeared more than a little off, though those encounters decreased after I was born again. Sometimes an unsound mind is caused by more than 1 spirit sharing it.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Very interesting content. On the subject of inspiration I believe the original writers of Scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit, not in a process of mechanical dictation, but certainly in agreement with the truth of God's Plan, and His qualities. The message of the Gospel spread verbally at first and God guided its preservation in written form, but the Word of God is living and active which is why we should use it as a Sword.
I'm not going to disagree with you, but this thing I understand also as God using what He has to work with at any given time. In our time, we have modern languages, some very specific grammatically, some with words that are also very specific, so that we can be more precise in the things that we wish to express. We can speak in terms of genetics, molecular biology, nuclear physics, all the modern technology, all our "increased" knowledge, and there's very little that we could express of these things in a language such as ancient Hebrew or Aramaic. However even the specificity of modern language is corrupted by usage through "slang", popular expression, simile, metaphor, etc.
When I was a child, sometimes when I asked my mom what we were going to have for dinner, she would respond "eme con ene". That was a phrase that she picked up from my father, who himself had picked it up from his mother. She said that when she knew that I didn't like the food that she was cooking. "Eme con ene" literally means "M with N" and 4 years of "Spanish" language classes never gave me a clue what "M with N" means, it's just nonsense as an expression, but it conveyed meaning. To me it meant I wasn't going to be pleased with dinner.
Our language only becomes more corrupted with time, but we typically understand the strange expressions that are in common usage in our culture. We do this with our minds and through the context of usage. As born again believers we have the Holy Spirit instructing us with the mind of Christ, transforming us and renewing our minds so that we can think and even speak spiritually. We can now communicate things to other believers that the world is entirely incapable of understanding, but there's little reason to do so.
I don't believe that people are more intelligent now than in the past. If anything I believe that we think less and rarely exercise reason, because we have other people and other technologies to do that for us. If true artificial intelligence were ever arrived at, if the so called "singularity" were really created, our minds would be redundant. We'd ask it questions and it would give us answers, like some man made electronic god. As a child I first saw an episode of the television series Twilight Zone called "the Old man in the cave" which was a story about a computer in a cave with a human prophet who spoke for the computer. That began my early love affair with computer science, but I was greatly disappointed when I learned digital electronics and that computers were actually incapable of thought, at least with the current "state of the art".
Now, I know that fallen spiritual beings do have power of a sort. They can tell lies through people for one. I met a town psychic in a local bar many years ago, before my "rebirth ".
He claimed to be drawn by my aura or something like that, but given his sexual predilection I couldn't say if he was being honest. I shared some of my childhood experience in answered prayer with him and he tried to tell me that it wasn't Jesus answering my prayers, but some other spiritual "mumbo jumbo", (the common deception). However, he demonstrated that he could apply some unseen force to me by creating an intense feeling of pressure in my gut without saying a word or doing anything other than staring at me for a moment. He claimed that he could "blast me apart" with the full force of this "psychic" power, and I could never look at him in the same way, but I couldn't believe all that he said. A great deal of scripture, of truth, was already in my mind through over 20 years of reading the bible.
I also studied a Chinese "internal " martial art under advanced teachers for over 3 years and excelled in it to the extent that I was taught, also before being born again of His Spirit. I learned how to move "internal forces", chi and shen, inside my body and outside into others, even effecting a minor healing of a sort. It wasn't until I genuinely believed the gospel and prayed to receive the Holy Spirit that I understood the subtle deception of that "art." I've shared the testimony of my "deliverance" a number of times, but I felt unseen things leave through the top of my head when the Holy Spirit restored me to sanity in recieving Him. Satan uses whatever is in his authority to deceive us, but God isn't deceived, the Holy Spirit isn't deceived. We know truth by the Spirit of truth within us. We recognize error because we lived with the spirit of error until we were set free from the darkness, but it remains impossible to rightly judge the righteous. I'm rambling a bit and a huge storm arrived while I was writing this with large lightning strikes close to my house. I might go out on the porch for a bit. I think that the prince of the power of the air is extremely angry at the moment and my power just shut down so I can't send this reliably, but God is in control. The lights just came back on but the lighting strikes are still on my small property and around it, so I'm going to post and then I'm going outside to stand.
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The storm has diminished and I gave the commandment to observe the feast of tabernacles and I challenged the unclean spirit to take my life if it was permitted him. I'm still here poking at my touch screen and just had breakfast a little past 12 in the afternoon, a spicey egg burrito that I'm happy to say came out well and tasty. The hosts are assembling (and some are already fleeing to the only place left open for them to go) and here come the thunder boomers again (yeah, he's angry.) I hope he runs off to lick his wounds. I need to go to the laundromat and I don't like driving in the rain.
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Truth7t7,
You and Marty are disagreeing because of 2 things:
1. Neither of you are connecting "the" Christ as being the King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord. Thus, the Anti (instead of and against Jesus) christ has to be someone who will be anointed the King of Israel, but coming in his own name. Christ the King of Israel (Mark 15:32)
2. Exactly as you said (which is the big universal problem) - The word (The Antichrist) is a "catch all phrase". That's the whole problem right there - misuse of the term, using it as a catch all phrase. We, in Christianity, need to be more precise and a lot of the disagreeing would stop. My heartfelt desire.
The person is the Antichrist only for the time he is King of Israel, mistaken by the Jews as being the messiah (for a while).
At other times, the person is the King of the Roman Empire of the end times (the Eu). i.e. as the little horn and the beast.
(starts) little horn>>>>prince who shall come>>>>Antichrist>>>>>revealed man of sin>>>>>>>beast (ends)
little horn - king 7 Roman Empire
beast - king 8 Roman Empire
Antichrist - King of Israel - for about 3 yrs.
Marty you spoke of the beast. But what you haven’t mentioned is the false prophet. They are both cast alive into the Lake of Fire. When you learn who the beast is and the false prophet then you’ll understand the full meaning of what you talk about. The beast is the seven kings that rule. At the time of John Five had already ruled. The sixth one was ruling at the time the revelation was written. One more was to rule after the sixth making the seven kings of the beast. The eighth king will revive the beast for the last time. During the last king the false prophet appears who will proclaim himself as being Christ. Learn the beast and his number then you will begin to understand what will be in place at the time of Christ’s return. And if you even study deeper you’ll see the timing of the rising of the beast.
Truth7t7
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The Little Horn of Daniel Chapter 7 will be an individual human man, that will be present on a future earth, and his human body will be given to the burning flame, in the Lake Of Fire at the second coming final judgement, the "Parallel" teaching is seen in Revelation 19:19-20
Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Daniel 7 is the first we read about the person.
It gives the broad picture of the person, from his beginning to his end - his end paralleling Revelation 19:19-20.
As the chapters, and later by books of the new testament advance to the last book of the bible, Revelation, more and more information is added about the person, filling in information. So that we can know the person....
(starts) little horn>>>>prince who shall come>>>>Antichrist>>>>>revealed man of sin>>>>>>>beast (ends)
Maybe Marty you need to see things through the eyes of the Holy Spirit rather then using your human reasoning.
Thats how I came to the conclusion LOL my belief came from scripture Jesus and Moses linked the two together see below
Does the bible teach us that the Beast out of the earth also known the false prophet is tied to apostate Israel?
I believe the bible teaches that the false prophet was a demon influencing Mostly apostate Israel in the first century. He is also the true definition of who John teaches the antichrist to be.
A false prophet would have to come through the faithful. There has only been one church which is made up of the faithful before and after the cross from the days of Adam until today. Since this false prophet comes through the people of the faithful it would rule out him being from any other religion (Islam, budism ect ect).
Israel represented the faithful during most of the biblical times and this was from were the true prophets came from. So this false prophet purpose was to divert the Jews or the faithful away from their true Messiah. The false prophet is the only beast in the bible who is described as a clean animal (a lamb)which would represent Israel.
The false prophet along with the beast are cast into the lake of fire alive this doesn't happen to people as all people will be judged before being cast into the lake of fire. We know that satan (who we know is a demon) will be cast into the lake of fire alive (rev 20:12)in the future.
The false prophet along with the beast out of the sea (who I believe is a demon influencing Rome and its leaders in the first century) and satan makeup the unholy trinity. I believe the unholy trinity's purpose was to turn the Jews away from Jesus thier Messiah and have the people kill and reject Him. What could of been a more important task for Satan to do?
A description of the false prophet
Revelation 13:11
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. He has 2 horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon he looks gentle but he is evil.
How did Jesus describe false prophets and who did He say false prophets are?
Jesus talking about the Pharisees and describes them in
Matthew 7:15
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Jesus above links the false prophet to the Pharisees
Rev 13:13-16
13 And he doth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
Mosses warned us about this in.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul
Mosses above also links false prophets to the Jews
The false prophet is of Satan and Jesus said this about the Jewish leadership in
John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies
Jesus above links the Pharisees to satan.
The false prophet gave power to the beast (Rome) when they had the people say "we have no king but Caesar". They received the symbolic mark on their forehead and hand by being devoted to Rome and doing its will.
John 19:50
But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
Who could be more evil than the Pharisees who's job it was to reveal the Messiah to the Jews but instead persuaded the Jews to reject and kill Him? They turned their people away from their true King Jesus and had the people call Cesar their king that is the true definition of a false prophet.
You quote scripture but you haven’t seen. The beast is seven kings with the eight to follow. His number is 666. Which was first used with the Babylonian Empire. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar He was the first king. And more would follow him. As far as the 666. It was the number of gods they worshipped.
The beast has 7 heads (which represent kings). One of those kings - king 7 will be killed and brought back to life as king 8.
On the statue image of the dream Nebuchadnezzar had in Daniel 2 - Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold. Where are you getting that the number of gods the Babylonians worshiped were 666 gods?
Wrong the beast will be revived by the eighth king. Not the seventh king. The eighth is said to be of the kings before him.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
The beast is the eighth king.
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