Keiw
Well-Known Member
2Cor 4:4 The ( Ho) god( Theos= how that paragraph begins--Otherwise in your reasoning it would start-The God capitol G.
Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16? (For Jehovah's Witnesses)
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The use of capital letters is misleading, because there is no upper and lower case in Greek….so using capital ”G” when the definite article is missing is mistranslation.
It isn’t as if they do not know the meaning of the word “theos” as is demonstrated in this one verse….it’s the use of the capital letter that reinforces the meaning…in how they render these two persons with one descriptor, but speaking about two entirely different entities.
“in whose case the god (ho theos) of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (ho theos). (NASB)
”ho theos” is used twice in that verse…once to describe “THE god” of this world….and Christ who is the image of THE God, “ho theos”….so this demonstrates that the translators know which is which.
We see this again in John 10:31-36…
”The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” (theos, not ho theos) Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I ’? If he called them gods, (theos) to whom the word of God (ho theos) came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’ (ho theos)? (NASB)
The use of the capital “G” is again misleading. The Jews never accused Jesus of being “God“ but of claiming that God was his Father. (John 5:18) Anxious to pin a charge of blasphemy on him they resorted to distorting the truth.
If Jehovah himself can call human judges “gods” (theos) then the meaning of the word is dictated by context and the definite article. It’s amazing what a capital letter or even a misplaced comma can do to change the meaning of a sentence….
Relying on biased translation is a mistake….we should do our own homework. Just look these verses up in a Greek Interlinear…..
Berean
Well-Known Member
The capitalizations are done by the translators, they're are not in the original. Just like "other" is not in 1 Col. 1:16
Keiw
Well-Known Member
There is one God to all the Father( 1 Cor 8:6) --proves trinity religionssssssssssssssssssss are full of it. There is only 1 God.
Isaiah 44:6--I am YHVH(Jehovah) beside ME( not we or us) there is no other God-- trinitarians stop using your altered translations--its 100% fact all using them will LOSE.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
ALL translations with Gods name removed against his will are misleading all to LOSE.
Berean
Well-Known Member
Berean
Well-Known Member
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
This is similar to the Hebrew equivalent of "elohim" where it was used in Ps 82:6 to convey it to those to whom the word came. The important thing as it is with elohim, is context. In Jn 1:1 it clearly refers to the creator. "all things were made by him" and equality with the Father " the Word with God and the Word was God". In 2 Cor 4:4 is used as a pagan reference similar to the Athenian discourse in Acts 17. The first three rules of interpretation 1) context 2) context 3) context
Here is Jesus' quotation of the verse using "Theoi" (plural)in Greek
AT Robertson's take on it:
Vincent's take:
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
@shepherdsword both of those “takes” on the meaning of the scriptures mentioned are opinions….like scholars, they are a dime a dozen….
To render “world” as “age” is misleading when we research the meaning of the word used there…”aiōn”
It means……
It is translated as “age” in many verses as the context demonstrates it should, but in other verses, “age” (as we understand that word in English) does not fit with the context at all.
e.g. Mark 11:14….NASB
He said to it, “May no one ever G165 eat fruit from you again!” And His disciples were listening.
Luke 1:33….NASB
”and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, G165 and His kingdom will have no end.”
Acts 3:21…NASB…
”whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient G165 time. G165”
Rom 12:2…NASB…
“And do not be conformed to this world, G165 but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
As for the second “take”…I put little store in the rabbinical writings as they were written after Jesus finished his earthly course, by those who did not genuinely serve the true God.
I put those writings on a par with the Catholic catechism. They were written by “faithful” Jews, but faithful only to their own religious system which Jesus condemned. (Matt 15:7-9) Look at what was written! Absolute nonsense….
They are not even worth a second look if we want to serve the same God that Jesus did. (Acts 4:27)
To render “world” as “age” is misleading when we research the meaning of the word used there…”aiōn”
It means……
- “for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
- the worlds, universe
- period of time, age“ (Strongs)
It is translated as “age” in many verses as the context demonstrates it should, but in other verses, “age” (as we understand that word in English) does not fit with the context at all.
e.g. Mark 11:14….NASB
He said to it, “May no one ever G165 eat fruit from you again!” And His disciples were listening.
Luke 1:33….NASB
”and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, G165 and His kingdom will have no end.”
Acts 3:21…NASB…
”whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient G165 time. G165”
Rom 12:2…NASB…
“And do not be conformed to this world, G165 but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
As for the second “take”…I put little store in the rabbinical writings as they were written after Jesus finished his earthly course, by those who did not genuinely serve the true God.
I put those writings on a par with the Catholic catechism. They were written by “faithful” Jews, but faithful only to their own religious system which Jesus condemned. (Matt 15:7-9) Look at what was written! Absolute nonsense….
They are not even worth a second look if we want to serve the same God that Jesus did. (Acts 4:27)
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Berean
Well-Known Member
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
I think the point of the verse is to show that satan still power to deceive and enslave whether that's this present age or this planet, I do not think it is assigning some sort of divine role to him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Satan has always had the power to deceive…ever since he stepped out of his God-assigned role in the garden, and attempted a take over of the human race.
With the creation of lower intelligent creatures, here was an opportunity to gain what he began to imagine…..in his magnificence, he desired worship. There were no creatures in existence who could see him as a god, because the other angels were his equal in power and beauty….but now everything changed.
James 1:14-15 explains how it happens…
“But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.”
He was there in the garden, assigned as “the covering cherub”…a guardianship position (Ezekiel 28:13-17)…but, observing the humans, it also implanted some wrong desires in him, but rather than pull himself up, he continued to plan a course of action in order to separate the humans from their God and take his place.
God had two choices in this case…..either eliminate the rebels and start fresh with new ones, or use the rebellion in a way that will show all of his children, (both in heaven and on earth) that his Sovereignty will not be challenged by his own creation. Since rebellion took place in God’s spirit family first, angels being powerful spirit creatures, had to be dealt with in their time, rather than in the human’s earth time.
We may wonder why it took so long after the fall in Eden for God to send his savior to die for us?
According to Bible chronology, the creation of Adam was around 4000 years before Jesus was born. Yet the prophesy in Genesis 3:15 was pronounced right after Adam and his wife were expelled from the garden. So it took 4000 years for the Messiah to come into the world……and here we are almost 2000 years further on, and we are still waiting for his promised return.
It takes patience and endurance on our part to deal with what satan’s world can throw at us for what seems like an eternity…..but no one really has to wait longer than their own lifetime for their reward to be realized.
Once we enter the grave, all consciousness ceases, according to Solomon. (Eccl 9:5, 10) This is why the Bible promotes resurrection, NOT the existence of an immortal soul…..there is no such thing in the Bible.
Death is a sleep, from which only God’s spirit can awaken us. Jesus gave us the example of Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) Using the power of the holy spirit given to him at his baptism, Jesus brought his friend back to life and returned him to his family and friends. Lazarus was not somewhere else, he was still in his tomb, “sleeping” as Jesus said. If he had gone somewhere better, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again later from some other cause?
We need to ask these questions and get solid Bible based answers. God’s permission of evil has a purpose…an everlasting one.
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
People misunderstand Solomon. Let's take a look:
Ecc 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Cut off from life, they know nothing of what passes under the sun. Their day of probation is ended, and therefore they can have no further reward in living a holy life; nor can they be liable to any further punishment for crimes in a state of probation, that being ended.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
No more a portion forever? Does this mean they will not be resurrected and their deeds being forgotten, no judgement? Of course not.
Let's look at what Jesus taught of the afterlife using a parable:
Lk 16:22-25
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Pretty clear that there is a consciousness after death. Again:
Mk 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Consciousness after death could not be any plainer.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I agree….when Solomon mentions what is “done under the sun”…he means in this world under our present state of being.
Since the Jews did not have “immortal souls” mentioned in their Scripture, they adopted it later from pagan Greek influences…..Christendom too adopted this favorite lost puppy that the devil likes to use as it perpetuates the first lie he told in Eden….”you surely will not die”….when God told Adam that he surely would.
Adam was told very succinctly…..after he had broken God’s law that merited the death penalty….
”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)
There is no afterlife ever mentioned there or anywhere else in the Hebrew Scriptures except by resurrection…which was a restoration of life, not a continuation of it.
If you understand the meaning of the word “soul” in both Bible languages, you will know that the words “immortal soul” do not exist in any verse. A “soul” is not a disembodied spirit…..it is a living, breathing creature.
Solomon also wrote about the futility of our death since we have no advantage over the animals…..we all breathe the same air and die the same death….all return to the dust. (Eccl 3:19-20)
No, not clear at all when you consider that Jesus never mentioned conscious life after death, except by resurrection either….this was a parable amongst many others. We have to understand that Lazarus was a common name at the time.…So was Jesus.
The verses before the ones you quoted, tell us that the rich man was enjoying his lot in life, but at the expense of the beggar who was trying to glean a few crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.
Taken literally we can see how ridiculous it really is……are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? And can those in heaven see the torment of those in hell? What is “hell” in this verse? It is “hades”..….so what did that mean to a Jew?
Will a drop of water really cool the tongue of someone in a fire?
Is the rich man feeding himself outdoors so that the beggar is scratching for crumbs falling off his table?
In whose “bosom” is Lazarus…in God’s or Abraham’s? What does that mean?
As a parable it was speaking about two contrasting groups of people whom Jesus dealt with.
The rich man represented the Pharisees and the beggar represented the poor spiritually malnourished common people whom the Pharisees neglected, as undeserving of their care and attention. When Jesus came, he concentrated on the “lost sheep” rather than the wicked Pharisees. Their deaths are a reversal in their status….they changed places from God’s perspective…adopted as “sons of Abraham” because of their acceptance of Jesus as Messiah.
The beggar was now “in the bosom of Abraham”, which is a position of favor with God. Since there are no “immortal souls” and no “heaven and hell” as opposite destinations for immortal souls to go….this parable is nothing like the way it is interpreted in Christendom.
Oh dear….there’s that “hell” again…..this time it is “Gehenna” not “hades”, but if you think that they are one and the same thing, you have been horribly misled. These two words mean two completely different things, but if Christendom wants to portray God as a fiendish torturer, who punishes the wicked forever with no way to repent, then they are welcome to that god, as he is not the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
You seem to have no idea what Jesus was talking about….
To a first century Jew, “Gehenna” was the city’s garbage dump, where fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse. The carcasses of dead animals were thrown into Gehenna for disposal, as were the bodies of executed criminals who were not considered worthy of a decent burial. What the flames missed the worms (maggots) finished off…..it portrayed an ignominious end to a wasted life.
Without a grave or tomb with their name and lineage inscribed, Jews considered that these ones would not be remembered in the resurrection. It was a symbol of everlasting death, not torture of any kind.
Refer to God’s law to Israel and tell me how many punishments involved prolonged torture of any kind?
That is NOT who God is….
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
Dust to dust...speaking of bodily decomposition after death.
The New Testament reveals many mysteries that were hidden in the old. Eternal conscious torment is one of them
Mary's statement shows the difference between "soul" and "spirit"
Lk 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul( doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
There is not a single parable that doesn't use real events. A "seed" in a parable is real. A "pearl" in a parable is real. As such, the "hell" or hades that Jesus spoke of is real. It is selective reading to dismiss it as some parable unrelated to reality. In fact, that would make Jesus a liar.
Lazarus was not in heaven. He was in Paradise which at that time was still located in hades. It was not taken to heaven until Jesus was resurrected and "led captivity captive"
It's simple. It means that there is a place of torment where the wicked go to await final judgement when they die. This was the whole point of Jesus' parabl
They are the same place. It was called “Gehenna” in hebrew (after the burning garbage dump outside the city) and "hades" in greek
Jesus explained very plainly what happens to the wicked after death. They go to a place where they are tormented as they await final judgement.
I hope you are right. I have no desire to see anyone tortured for eternity. The problem is that is what the scripture teaches:
Rv 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever(aioónas) and ever(aioónas) : and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rv 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever(aioónas) and ever(aioónas).
NOTICE:
This same term "for ever and ever is used to describe the eternal life of God:
Rv 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever (aioónas) and ever(aioónas).
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