Who Are The Children Of God?

[Dave L]

Who cares what the pharisees expected? They were apostate.

But Gods spiritual kingdom operates through flesh in this world. The New Jerusalem is quite physical in heaven and will descend on the new physical earth. And we, in new physical bodies will live in it.

God is spirit, the angels are spirit, the dead in Christ are spirit, Satan is spirit and demons are spirit.

Spirit and spiritualized are two different things.

They were literalists and Jesus was not.

 

[CoreIssue]

They were literalists and Jesus was not.

Jesus was very literal.

He said not one (literal) iota would leave the bible until all was fulfilled.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus was very literal.

He said not one (literal) iota would leave the bible until all was fulfilled.

But, you say the kingdom is physical and literal just as the pharisees did, and Jesus said it is not, it is spiritual. All based on the same prophecies.

 

[CoreIssue]

But, you say the kingdom is physical and literal just as the pharisees did, and Jesus said it is not, it is spiritual. All based on the same prophecies.

Go back and read what I said because that is not what I said.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I understand it as two different tribulations. The early Jewish tribulation, past, and the entire New Covenant era of ongoing tribulation culminating in the end of the world.

Ok, Dave. I took a look, and things are nice and tidy if you just read Matthew's account, but the parallel account in Luke muddies up the waters quite a bit. So what I want to do is transfer your divisions in Matthew 24 to here, and then add Luke 17:22-37. Please, if you would, go through Luke's account and place each verse within these same divisions for me you have already created in Matthew's account. That would save time from me digging to see what your interpretations are.

Blessings in Christ
_____________
Matthew's Account:
First division from the time spoken until end of world. Matthew 24:1-14

“Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains. “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. But the person who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:1–14) (NET).

Second division. Jerusalem’s destruction fulfilled in 70 AD. Matthew 24:15–22

““So when you [present audience] see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. The one on the roof must not come down to take anything out of his house, and the one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:15–22) (NET)

Third division; After Jerusalem's destruction (Jewish Great Tribulation). Christian focus continues until the end. Matthew 24:23–28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Remember, I have told you ahead of time. So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” (Matthew 24:23–28) (NET)

Fourth division; the final days 29-51

““Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven—except the Father alone. For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding grain with a mill; one will be taken and one left. “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work when he comes. I tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave should say to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he begins to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with drunkards, then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:29–51) (NET)

_____________________

Luke's account:
22 And he said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, 'See here; or, see there.' Go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of man be in His day. 25 But first must He suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." 37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And he said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

 

[tooldtocare]

Who Are The Children Of God?

Every human being on the face of this earth

In my view of things -

 

[CoreIssue]

They were literalists and Jesus was not.

Jesus was a literalist who understood the spiritual as well.

As when he said his kingdom was not of this world.

That did not make it is purely spiritual kingdom.

When he ascended he went to prepare a place for us. That was the New Jerusalem, a physical place in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, but very much flesh and blood.

The four living creatures are flesh.

Jesus is flesh.

You are jumping to conclusions without proof.

We are literally Jesus' brothers.

 

[Heb 13:8]

There you antinomianists go again - twisting Biblical "reasonable service" and "unprofitable service" into "contractual service". As Christians, we are not free to do as we please with our minds and bodies - we are to serve God with them and the only way we can is by inviting Jesus into our heart which act enables Him to accomplish that for us. What god would teach otherwise except the antinomianist god of this world?

We are to serve God with them out of thankfulness to the cross, not to keep yourself saved. Keeping yourself saved when you're already saved until redemption is twisting scripture and spitting on the cross. God bless

 

[Dave L]

Jesus was a literalist who understood the spiritual as well.

As when he said his kingdom was not of this world.

That did not make it is purely spiritual kingdom.

When he ascended he went to prepare a place for us. That was the New Jerusalem, a physical place in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, but very much flesh and blood.

The four living creatures are flesh.

Jesus is flesh.

You are jumping to conclusions without proof.

We are literally Jesus' brothers.

Jesus said his kingdom is with in you. How can it be physical?

Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

etc., etc.

 

[amadeus]

And the Thread title question was: Who are the children of God?
Yet in five pages of posts only 4 posts addressed that question directly. Those who addressed it were:
@Phoneman777 [writer of op]
@Taken
@07-07-07
@tooldtocare

First the children of God come into being where and how?
And then are not the children to become Sons? If so, how?

 

[Dave L]

Ok, Dave. I took a look, and things are nice and tidy if you just read Matthew's account, but the parallel account in Luke muddies up the waters quite a bit. So what I want to do is transfer your divisions in Matthew 24 to here, and then add Luke 17:22-37. Please, if you would, go through Luke's account and place each verse within these same divisions for me you have already created in Matthew's account. That would save time from me digging to see what your interpretations are.

Blessings in Christ
_____________
Matthew's Account:
First division from the time spoken until end of world. Matthew 24:1-14

“Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains. “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. But the person who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:1–14) (NET).

Second division. Jerusalem’s destruction fulfilled in 70 AD. Matthew 24:15–22

““So when you [present audience] see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. The one on the roof must not come down to take anything out of his house, and the one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:15–22) (NET)

Third division; After Jerusalem's destruction (Jewish Great Tribulation). Christian focus continues until the end. Matthew 24:23–28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Remember, I have told you ahead of time. So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” (Matthew 24:23–28) (NET)

Fourth division; the final days 29-51

““Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven—except the Father alone. For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding grain with a mill; one will be taken and one left. “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work when he comes. I tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave should say to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he begins to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with drunkards, then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:29–51) (NET)

_____________________

Luke's account:
22 And he said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, 'See here; or, see there.' Go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one part under heaven, shines unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of man be in His day. 25 But first must He suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." 37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And he said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Thanks for looking into this. I can see a complete harmony except where Luke says; "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back", which also happened in the siege of Jerusalem. This would make the earlier fulfillment a symbol of a similar situation the future. We cannot deny the first one happened since history abundantly proves it did.

 

[CoreIssue]

Jesus said his kingdom is with in you. How can it be physical?

Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

etc., etc.

You did your no no no no no again

Now, deal with that:

When he ascended he went to prepare a place for us. That was the New Jerusalem, a physical place in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, but very much flesh and blood.

The four living creatures are flesh.

Jesus is flesh.

Those are non debatable facts.

 

[Dave L]

You did your no no no no no again

Now, deal with that:

When he ascended he went to prepare a place for us. That was the New Jerusalem, a physical place in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, but very much flesh and blood.

The four living creatures are flesh.

Jesus is flesh.

Those are non debatable facts.

Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. Why the resurrection and "rapture" into glorified bodies if not so?

 

[CoreIssue]

Who Are The Children Of God?

All in the body of Christ, meaning Church and believing Israel.

 

[Hidden In Him]

We cannot deny the first one happened since history abundantly proves it did.

I don't deny that it happened, partially. I believe in the partial fulfillment of prophecies, with their ultimate fulfillment coming in the end-times.

Thanks for looking into this. I can see a complete harmony except where Luke says; "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back", which also happened in the siege of Jerusalem.

Well, there were a few other things, but these were the main contradictory verses I was going to point to, yes. The presence of these verses is kind of like finding Dinosaur bones embedded in the late Cenozoic, LoL.

So what do you think of the concept of partial fulfillment?

 

[Dave L]

I don't deny that it happened, partially. I believe in the partial fulfillment of prophecies, with their ultimate fulfillment coming in the end-times.


Well, there were a few other things, but these were the main contradictory verses I was going to point to, yes. The presence of these verses is kind of like finding Dinosaur bones embedded in the late Cenozoic, LoL.

So what do you think of the concept of partial fulfillment?

I don't buy it. There will not be another siege of Jerusalem from a biblical standpoint. And I don't see any contradictions to this.

 

[Dave L]

You did your no no no no no again

Now, deal with that:

When he ascended he went to prepare a place for us. That was the New Jerusalem, a physical place in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, but very much flesh and blood.

The four living creatures are flesh.

Jesus is flesh.

Those are non debatable facts.

Where's the scripture supporting your claims?

 

[CoreIssue]

Where's the scripture supporting your claims?

If you do not known you don't belong in this conversation.

Where else could it be that the New Jerusalem?

 

[Dave L]

If you do not known you don't belong in this conversation.

Where else could it be that the New Jerusalem?

This tells me nothing other than you cannot support your numerous claims from scripture.

 

[Dave L]

I don't deny that it happened, partially. I believe in the partial fulfillment of prophecies, with their ultimate fulfillment coming in the end-times.


Well, there were a few other things, but these were the main contradictory verses I was going to point to, yes. The presence of these verses is kind of like finding Dinosaur bones embedded in the late Cenozoic, LoL.

So what do you think of the concept of partial fulfillment?

What translation are you using? I don't find any problems in the parallel passages using the NASB1995.