Who can speak to the text?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I am not downplaying their rebellion, so don't go there. And no ,them being swallowed alive is not represented by everlasting chains. This was an act of history. Just like them wanting to become priests is not an allegory for them leaving their first estate. and the 250 princes are not allegorical for aggelos or messengers or envoys! they would have sent messengers or envoys but not be envoys. And who were they an envoy for??? and to who?
First estate stands for heaven and spiritual beings. when angels interact with men they take on human form.
Tey left their habitation- is not an allegory for something- it means exactly what it says- they left the place where they dwelt! Heaven. It really is that simple. These angles were not part of the Luciferic rebellion, but they rebelled afterwards.
As to whether the chains are literal or not, I do not worry, but those spirits who left heaven and had sex with women in Genesis 6 are bound somehow someway with something. I will let the allefgorists with their mystic poweres figure out if they are literal or not.
I'm happy you at least have been exposed to one such interpretation. I think at some point we will need to deal with Genesis 6 clearly. There is other things going on in your post which also needs testing.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And which interpretation are you specifically referring to. I don't wish to take credit for what I am not sure of.
I await with humorous baited breath with how you intend to deal with Genesis 6.
Were you formally trained in Biblical exegesis and language or did you just spend time in the desert like John the Baptist and Paul to come up with these reinterpretations?
Time in the desert you might say. Once you understand God, His realm and Sovereignty as I hope you do in time you will re-look at those familiar old verses which you thought taught Heavenly Rebellion, but actually speak much much more. God Bless.
It is done in heaven now.
There are three heavens. Satan is restricted to the lowest heaven now, which is basically what we call the atmosphere.
God is in the third heaven.
In revelation 12 Satan and the fallen angels get kicked out of heaven completely and cast down to earth.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
“You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you." - Eze. 28:18
It really doesn't get any clearer than God declaring Satan was a fallen angel who deceived other angels into joining his rebellion. Revelation repeats the history that is mentioned in the OT by saying the dragon(Satan - Rev. 12:9) knocked down a third of the stars(angels - Rev. 1:20).
The Bible mentions three different areas that are commonly translated as "heaven" in English bibles. The context of a passage reveals which heaven a passage is specifically referring to. The correct translation of Gen. 1 and 2 shows God created multiple "heavens": His dwelling place, outer space, and the atmosphere that we get oxygen from. Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 2:12 that there are 3 heavens, and that God's dwelling place is the third heaven. When the text mentions "heavens", it is referring collectively to the 1st and 2nd heavens.
Our own atmosphere is the 1st heaven, followed by the 2nd heaven that is outer space, and that is in turn followed by the third heaven where God rules from. The "heaven" Elijah went up to was the 1st heaven, or the atmosphere(2 Kin. 2:11). The "heaven" David observed at night was the 2nd heaven(Psa. 8:3), or outer space. The "heaven" Christ ascended to was the 3rd heaven, or God's dwelling place(Acts 7:56). People generally fail to understand that the Bible refers to multiple areas that are all called "heaven", which is why they believe Elijah was taken to God's dwelling place.
As Job and 2 Kings show, Satan and his demons were still able to access God's dwelling place after their rebellion. However, as Revelation 12 shows, that isn't the case any more. Every last evil spirit has now been confined solely to the realm of the 1st heaven, which is why the angel in verse 12 says "woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea!". They are working overtime here because God has restricted them from having access to the last 2 heavens.
Yes, and in Revelation 12, the dragon is booted out of the first heaven, down to the earth.
Some have a difficult time with the supernatural within the scriptures. They do not believe in such things and therefore must find an explanation for the plain reading of the scripture. Scripture gymnastics. I will not bother with these keyboard theologians who have it all figured out to fit within man's limited intellectual capacities. Faith is required in our walk.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The angels who sinned, referring also to Jude, it is easy to notice the connection to sexual sins, the strange flesh mentioned...that these fallen angels took human women whore bore to them children who are the Nephilim (giants), men of renown in the ancient world. And they did that to corrupt the human race even further. Satan's goal was to prevent the prophecy of Genesis 3 where the Seed of the women (Christ to be born) would crush his head. And one way towards that was to mix angelic DNA into the human genome. Christ did not come to save any angels, they have no claim on Christ for salvation, God did not allow any such a thing as salvation for fallen angels. Which is another reason for the great flood, to destroy all flesh that were corrupted and start over with Noah, who God said was perfect in all his generations, (not tainted with corrupted DNA from fallen angles). For all we know, the fallen angels also corrupted the animals and changed them to be monstrous.
Genesis 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations
Noah was not a perfect man, he sinned, so this perfection is not referring to having no sin. That verse is talking about his genealogy!
The phrasing here, Sodom and Gomorrah abusive sexual sinning, in a similar manner to these (the fallen angels), that shows the connection clearly.
Angels can take on human form and even eat food. No doubt the body they can form is fully capable of sex.
Then v8 'Likewise also these dreamers' clearly shows the fallen angels did sin, and now men are sinning some of the same things as these fallen angels, who defile the flesh, reject God's authority, speak evil of God and their superiors the holy angels above them.
Jesus tells Satan he cares nothing about God. Satan is mindful only of the things of men as in ruling over them in evil ways, and he is really of the flesh nature. The demonic realm is of this world, earthly, devilish, sensual.
Matthew 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
James 3:14-16, notice the sensual (sex), demonic , earthly satanic properties connection here...
New King James Version
14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
Jude
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Genesis 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations
Noah was not a perfect man, he sinned, so this perfection is not referring to having no sin. That verse is talking about his genealogy!
The phrasing here, Sodom and Gomorrah abusive sexual sinning, in a similar manner to these (the fallen angels), that shows the connection clearly.
Angels can take on human form and even eat food. No doubt the body they can form is fully capable of sex.
Then v8 'Likewise also these dreamers' clearly shows the fallen angels did sin, and now men are sinning some of the same things as these fallen angels, who defile the flesh, reject God's authority, speak evil of God and their superiors the holy angels above them.
Jesus tells Satan he cares nothing about God. Satan is mindful only of the things of men as in ruling over them in evil ways, and he is really of the flesh nature. The demonic realm is of this world, earthly, devilish, sensual.
Matthew 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
James 3:14-16, notice the sensual (sex), demonic , earthly satanic properties connection here...
New King James Version
14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
Jude
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
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Some more evidence of who the sons of god in Genesis 6 are, is found in Job where it calls the angels who were with Satan, sons of God.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
michaelvpardo
Well-Known Member
In 2 Peter 2, the Apostle warns of the impending judgment of false "Christian " teachers, comparing them to the false prophets seen in the Old Testament and the judgment of fallen angels who did not stay within their given domain.
So why would Peter bother calling false prophets angels when he's already used the term false prophets?
Where in scripture do you see the false prophets being placed in chains and reserved for judgment?
Peter speaks about the days before Noah and scripture doesn't speak to any false prophets until after Moses was given the law. However, Genesis does speak to the sons of God mingling with the daughters of men. Who do you believe were these sons of God and why would their children with the daughters of men be exceptional, the mighty men of Old?
Peter isn't the only one to write about the fallen angels or to suggest that they were judged by God. Job is one of the oldest books in Scripture and in Job we find:
14 What is man, that he can be pure?
Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones,
and the heavens are not pure in his sight;
16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt,
a man who drinks injustice like water! Job 15:14-16
These verses are plainly contrasting men with the occupants of heaven.
Ezekiel chapter 28 speaks about the fall of the king of Tyre as the fall of the "anointed cherub". It directly addresses the fall of one of the heavenly rulers of men:
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you. Ezekiel 28:13-15 ESV
A Cherub is an angelic being, but scripture calls some of these men, so either they were always in the form of men or are made to take the form of men.
Someone has already brought up Isaiah and the fall of Lucifer, the heavenly rulers over Babylon, who God calls a man, but clearly fallen from heaven. But if you want to compare scripture with scripture from the New Testament, Jude mentions the same judgment that Peter spoke about in 2 Peter.
. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:6-7
If that isn't enough, you also have the testimony of John from the book of the Revelation:
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9
Now, since the rest of the Bible talks about the sin and rebellion of "sons of God", "heavenly host", war in heaven between the angels, etc., why would Peter being talking about false prophets as angels in contrast to false prophets?
I don't see the logic, nor do I believe that God gave us scripture to confuse us. That's Satan's job.
Hey Michael
I get your bias and its an easy one to infer.
The question here is whether the reference is to material “heavens” (as in Exodus 24:10 & Job 25:5) you no doubt appreciate heavens is not always referencing Gods High abode but rather the heavenly realm of men. The above verse might be better read "God puts no trust in his servants (earthy) and the heavens (ruling men of that time) are not pure in His sight.
You see Michael, Gods angels are all pure like Him possessing divine nature and behold His eyes! Mathew 18:10 Only corrupting flesh can sin i.e James 1:14 etc.
If you misinterpret your Job reference to force satan theology, how do I treat your other references/comments?
Where you say plainly, even the scholars who translated the original text are left scratching their heads as to what precisely is meant.
Verse 16 is the proof - If God cant trust His earthly servants...and not even those He sets in power over them...how much less the abominable and corrupt?
No need to bring God's heavenly servants into this verse....why?
Psalm 103:20
103:20 Praise the Lord, you angels of his, you powerful warriors who carry out his decrees and obey His orders
They always obey!
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michaelvpardo
Well-Known Member
Men don't live in a heavenly realm. That's not the description of creation from Genesis and whether you believe Genesis or not, the text is foundational to scripture. The Bible is progressive Revelation of God in the person of His Son. Jesus Himself quoted from the creation account in support of His teaching through the law and the prophets. The only "bias" I have is a biblical one. I believe the word of God, not just bits and pieces of it that satisfy my vain imagination. When you understand your own corruption and sin and believe Christ will save your evil soul, submit to Him and ask for His guidance and you may know Him. Amen.
None of that deals with the text.
14 What is man, that he can be pure?
Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
So God's focus is looking at Mankind (context = humans)
Then the text turns to those earthly servants
15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones (translated servants),
and the heavens are not pure in his sight;
God considering the failure in his earthly servants and those ruling over them He turns His thoughts toward the very worst of humanity.
16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt,
a man who drinks injustice like water! Job 15:14-16
Very clear and simple...its clear...obvious...a careful reading of the Word.
Blessing.
michaelvpardo
Well-Known Member
Holy ones translated as servants is interesting, but it isn't what the text says. Scripture doesn't stand alone, but is cohesive.
Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
Heaven is not Earth, Earth is not heaven, and men are not messengers in heaven. Rebellion is sin.
How you have fallen from heaven,
You star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who defeated the nations!
13 But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 Nevertheless you will be brought down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15
Who exactly do you believe Lucifer is?
That's my only question.
Before any damage is done to Isaiah 14 lets lock away Job 14.
Many translate angels to be servants, saints, angels or holy ones, all of which can (and does here) speak to human servants. You need to understand the context and we need to work with the text and not force inferences or notions, which are not present.
In relation to your "scatter gun" approach to exposition, do you find it odd you have gone to Isaiah & John's prophecy in the Revelation to prove what? What do you think the text concerning Lucifer is teaching and the highly symbolic apocalyptic language in Rev 12?
michaelvpardo
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I think you're a fraud. I asked exactly one question and you danced around it. My post wasn't expository, but illuminated as in the fashion of the Apostles. I suppose that the Lord was a poor expositor as well.
Again, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, who do you believe Lucifer is?
No dancing here Michael, your miss use of Job 14 has caught you out! The reason I am pressing you is your approach to Job 14 is the same as with Isaiah 14 & Rev 12. Your failure to acknowledge this provides me little motivation to discuss Lucifer. You get that right?
Lets say you said "okay, I got Job 14 wrong, but what about Isaiah 14?" Well that opens the door for further discussion but as you have closed the door what point is there in continuing? How many doors are you willing to close? Let's say I show you the true interpretation of Isaiah 14 and you close that door also? What then?
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