Who Does The Father Draw?

[Helen]

Yes GG, cannot have it both ways. Here is a list of scriptures for those who are being taught Calvinism, or thinking about it. If we want the truth, sincerely, the Holy Spirit will "guide us into all truth" !!!

If you are a Calvinist, you would then have to reject these scriptures"

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."
- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

Since I am no scholar, I can only give my interpretation. My belief is, when the word predestination is used, it is used corporately, not individually. I say God predestined the GENTILES as a whole to be grafted in. And there are way too many scriptures to support that.
Ephesians 2:12 , the audience are Gentiles. Seems so simple to me and if Calvinism were true...I would have a hard time worshiping a God who would do that.

I believe that you and GodsGrace should get off you worries about Calvin, it is a rabbit hole.

The scriptures say ( and already been quoted above.

28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

You mentioned "My belief is, when the word predestination is used, it is used corporately, not individually." Now how you see it corporately and individually I cannot see. ;)

If a person cannot see 'election and callings' and different levels of responsibilities and placements in the kingdom...then yes, it would make things a bit muddy for them.
It is we who have the onus in making our calling and election sure.

On a football field not everyone plays the game from the same positions.
It is one game, and the team wins, but the game is played by individuals placed and elected into different positions.

But, if you enjoy your hunt for Calvinists...enjoy!
I have never studied what he believed ...neither do I much care.
God has promised to look after His own.

God bless...Helen :)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes GG, cannot have it both ways. Here is a list of scriptures for those who are being taught Calvinism, or thinking about it. If we want the truth, sincerely, the Holy Spirit will "guide us into all truth" !!!

If you are a Calvinist, you would then have to reject these scriptures"

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."
- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

Amen to that!
There are many scriptures that have to be refused to believe Calvin's teachings. It's also rather bothersome that they quote a man more than they quote the bible.

And to answer: Man refuses.
God offers His salvific work to ALL MEN.
It's up to us, individually, to either accept or deny His offering of the gift of salvation.

Since I am no scholar, I can only give my interpretation. My belief is, when the word predestination is used, it is used corporately, not individually. I say God predestined the GENTILES as a whole to be grafted in. And there are way too many scriptures to support that.
Ephesians 2:12 , the audience are Gentiles. Seems so simple to me and if Calvinism were true...I would have a hard time worshiping a God who would do that.

Absolutely 100% right, and any theologian that is not calvinist will be in agreement with you.

At the end of 1 Corinthians 16:22 Paul says that if anyone does not love the Lord let him be anathema.

How could we be accursed of something if we have no choice over it!
That very statement proves that we can, of our own free will, either love the Lord or not love the Lord.

Which is what libertarian free will is:
The choice to DO something or
NOT DO something.

Easy.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that you and GodsGrace should get off you worries about Calvin, it is a rabbit hole.

The scriptures say ( and already been quoted above.

28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

You mentioned "My belief is, when the word predestination is used, it is used corporately, not individually." Now how you see it corporately and individually I cannot see. ;)

If a person cannot see 'election and callings' and different levels of responsibilities and placements in the kingdom...then yes, it would make things a bit muddy for them.
It is we who have the onus in making our calling and election sure.

On a football field not everyone plays the game from the same positions.
It is one game, and the team wins, but the game is played by individuals placed and elected into different positions.

But, if you enjoy your hunt for Calvinists...enjoy!
I have never studied what he believed ...neither do I much care.
God has promised to look after His own.

God bless...Helen :)

You quoted Romans 8:29 above.
Could you explain it please?
Exactly WHAT is predestined?

 

[Nancy]

Amen to that!
There are many scriptures that have to be refused to believe Calvin's teachings. It's also rather bothersome that they quote a man more than they quote the bible.

And to answer: Man refuses.
God offers His salvific work to ALL MEN.
It's up to us, individually, to either accept or deny His offering of the gift of salvation.





Absolutely 100% right, and any theologian that is not calvinist will be in agreement with you.

At the end of 1 Corinthians 16:22 Paul says that if anyone does not love the Lord let him be anathema.

How could we be accursed of something if we have no choice over it!
That very statement proves that we can, of our own free will, either love the Lord or not love the Lord.

Which is what libertarian free will is:
The choice to DO something or
NOT DO something.

Easy.

At the end of 1 Corinthians 16:22 Paul says that if anyone does not love the Lord let him be accursed.

How could we be accursed of something if we have no choice over it!
That very statement proves that we can, of our own free will, either love the Lord or not love the Lord.

Awesomness! In a nutshell-BAM-out the water Sister! This doctrine has NOTHING to stand on...irrefutable IMHO...good post GG. I think ALL people should agree with me...snickers...

 

[Helen]

The word predestined is in the bible. Does it mean God predestined who will be saved?

NO!!

As the scripture says...we are predestinated according to His foreknowledge.

Why does that annoy or scare you?
He is outside of time...He knows all...
He just knows before we are even born..who have chosen Him 'in time'...because He is outside of time.

Like He says to Jeremiah " I called you from your mothers womb"
He had already seen Jeremiah's choice to serve Him..He is only confirming here what He foreknew about Jeremiah.
God did not sit back and think..so who shall I pick for this job.."oh I will pick him".. By foreknowledge He could see Jeremiah heart.

You say you don't agree about God not giving people a free will to choose.
And that my last line was Calvanistic.
Then, tell me how you see Jonah?

He said NO twice to God. He ran in the opposite direction..
Through the shipwreck and big Fish ...God made Jonah willing to go!!

You said:- "This is what is taught --- God does not FORCE anyone to Him, He just MAKES THEM WANT to go to Him. That, Helen, is taking away my free will to really choose. That IS forcing me to go to Him and not leaving the choice up to me."

Okay, answer me this ...why would you and Nancy be much happier if people were left to their own devices? Why?
That is a very harsh attitude..and speak of a heard heart. = "Let them choose what they like, and have the punishment that they deserve!"

And if God did not hound them and make them willing? Why would you both wish that God left alone all the people who said 'No' to Him?!!
I have sad No a couple of times to Him in my life.
I have even said " I am done with You." a couple of times...but He came back and said..."Maybe you are, but I am not done with you!"
So obviously you and Nancy would be much happier if He had taken me at my word!
Why would you both have been happier if Jonah was left alone and God did not hound Him to go Gods way and not his own ?

I'm not interested in Calvin, but I am interested in the bible.
And this is how I read the bible as saying.

You said in your post. " Can He be such a mean God? I thought He was a God of love? " And I say "Back atcha " How can you wish other people were left to their own foolish choices, yet I presume that you pray that God keeps you on the straight and narrow and help you!!

Yes, back atcha... How is your God such a mean God?

It is been a while since we were having these kind of discussions. :)

Bless you....H

 

[Mayflower]

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one (in absolute unity and harmony within the Godhead), even though they are three, then it follows that the Father draws those whom the Son and the Holy Spirit draw. Which means that they draw ALL SINNERS to the Savior through the Gospel.

Does Christ draw all men to Himself? Absolutely.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. (John 12:32)

Even though “men” is in italics which means it has been inserted by the translators (and means “people”), “all” means ALL. If all human beings are sinners, and Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then all people need the Savior to save them.

Does the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ? Absolutely.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

“The world” means the whole world of humanity – the inhabitants of the earth. And one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is to convict and convince ("reprove") sinners when the Gospel is preached. Convict them about their sinful condition and convince them that the Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of the world, and they must come to Him to be saved. Hence we have these words: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

I haven't thought of this subject since college. A campus ministry discipled me, that believed in predestination, and I had never heard of the term. The more I learned about it, and hung out with my friends there, they were really good people, the more I believed it. So I didn't understand when I told other friends and family about it, they thought I was better then them. If I was as Christ-like back then as I pray people see now, I would have told them, "Well, if you accept Jesus, you don't have to worry about it." :)

As my maturity grew and I learned A LOT more about God's Word, I have come to conclude predestination as you see it here. Because the Bible teaches both. God chooses those who already knows will choose Him. Praise an omniscient, merciful Father who draws everyone and has has chosen those who He already knows will choose Him. He also gives men a free will to not choose His drawing, like turning away a gift from somebody.

I just go back to the basics.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

"Whoever" believes is clear to me. :)

 

[Helen]

Which is what libertarian free will is:
The choice to DO something or
NOT DO something.

Easy.

Yep...just like I used to LET / ALLOW my Kids to have their own CHOICE ad cross the road without looking. Hey, even play in the middle of the road.

And..when I gave them the choice NOT TO go to school.!!!!
Or when they got older..the choice NOT TO get a job..!!
Hey, free to try out drugs ..because I loved them I just let them have their free will...after all, we are all born with a free will.

.

Hugs..xx I won't fight over this..if that is how you see the loving Father who just leaving His creation free to do as they please...whatever the consequence.

Be blessed in what you believe, and I will in mine. :)

 

[Nancy]

NO!!

As the scripture says...we are predestinated according to His foreknowledge.

Why does that annoy or scare you?
He is outside of time...He knows all...
He just knows before we are even born..who have chosen Him 'in time'...because He is outside of time.

Like He says to Jeremiah " I called you from your mothers womb"
He had already seen Jeremiah's choice to serve Him..He is only confirming here what He foreknew about Jeremiah.
God did not sit back and think..so who shall I pick for this job.."oh I will pick him".. By foreknowledge He could see Jeremiah heart.

You say you don't agree about God not giving people a free will to choose.
And that my last line was Calvanistic.
Then, tell me how you see Jonah?

He said NO twice to God. He ran in the opposite direction..
Through the shipwreck and big Fish ...God made Jonah willing to go!!

You said:- "This is what is taught --- God does not FORCE anyone to Him, He just MAKES THEM WANT to go to Him. That, Helen, is taking away my free will to really choose. That IS forcing me to go to Him and not leaving the choice up to me."

Okay, answer me this ...why would you and Nancy be much happier if people were left to their own devices? Why?
That is a very harsh attitude..and speak of a heard heart. = "Let them choose what they like, and have the punishment that they deserve!"

And if God did not hound them and make them willing? Why would you both wish that God left alone all the people who said 'No' to Him?!!
I have sad No a couple of times to Him in my life.
I have even said " I am done with You." a couple of times...but He came back and said..."Maybe you are, but I am not done with you!"
So obviously you and Nancy would be much happier if He had taken me at my word!
Why would you both have been happier if Jonah was left alone and God did not hound Him to go Gods way and not his own ?

I'm not interested in Calvin, but I am interested in the bible.
And this is how I read the bible as saying.

You said in your post. " Can He be such a mean God? I thought He was a God of love? " And I say "Back atcha " How can you wish other people were left to their own foolish choices, yet I presume that you pray that God keeps you on the straight and narrow and help you!!

Yes, back atcha... How is your God such a mean God?

It is been a while since we were having these kind of discussions. :)

Bless you....H

You said:- "This is what is taught --- God does not FORCE anyone to Him, He just MAKES THEM WANT to go to Him. That, Helen, is taking away my free will to really choose. That IS forcing me to go to Him and not leaving the choice up to me."

I think I now see where you are coming from @"ByGrace" I can definitely see in relation to Him giving every one of us a "measure of faith" and that He is evident in His own creation!
Well, not sure if that is what you mean, lol...in that case, yes...we would have NO idea of Anything!

 

[GodsGrace]

NO!!

As the scripture says...we are predestinated according to His foreknowledge.

Why does that annoy or scare you?
He is outside of time...He knows all...
He just knows before we are even born..who have chosen Him 'in time'...because He is outside of time.

Like He says to Jeremiah " I called you from your mothers womb"
He had already seen Jeremiah's choice to serve Him..He is only confirming here what He foreknew about Jeremiah.
God did not sit back and think..so who shall I pick for this job.."oh I will pick him".. By foreknowledge He could see Jeremiah heart.

You say you don't agree about God not giving people a free will to choose.
And that my last line was Calvanistic.
Then, tell me how you see Jonah?

He said NO twice to God. He ran in the opposite direction..
Through the shipwreck and big Fish ...God made Jonah willing to go!!

You said:- "This is what is taught --- God does not FORCE anyone to Him, He just MAKES THEM WANT to go to Him. That, Helen, is taking away my free will to really choose. That IS forcing me to go to Him and not leaving the choice up to me."

Okay, answer me this ...why would you and Nancy be much happier if people were left to their own devices? Why?
That is a very harsh attitude..and speak of a heard heart. = "Let them choose what they like, and have the punishment that they deserve!"

And if God did not hound them and make them willing? Why would you both wish that God left alone all the people who said 'No' to Him?!!
I have sad No a couple of times to Him in my life.
I have even said " I am done with You." a couple of times...but He came back and said..."Maybe you are, but I am not done with you!"
So obviously you and Nancy would be much happier if He had taken me at my word!
Why would you both have been happier if Jonah was left alone and God did not hound Him to go Gods way and not his own ?

I'm not interested in Calvin, but I am interested in the bible.
And this is how I read the bible as saying.

You said in your post. " Can He be such a mean God? I thought He was a God of love? " And I say "Back atcha " How can you wish other people were left to their own foolish choices, yet I presume that you pray that God keeps you on the straight and narrow and help you!!

Yes, back atcha... How is your God such a mean God?

It is been a while since we were having these kind of discussions. :)

Bless you....H

I think the problem is that you don't understand what Calvin taught.
I say this because your post above is so confusing that I can't really answer to it.

Tell me if you agree with the following:

The anagram for calvinism is the TULIP. It's much more complicated than this, but this is the simple form...

T: Total Depravity
Man was born TOTALLY depraved. So depraved that he cannot raise himself up to know God or to accept God. God must raise a man up to meet Him or that man will NEVER attain to God because of his totally depraved nature. I said TOTALLY.

U: Unconditional Election
God choose, from before time, who will be saved by Him. This choice is not based on anyting..it is unconditional. Man has no say in this decision. God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned, no part of this choice is left to man. God alone makes the choice.

L: Limited Atonement
Jesus died ONLY for the persons that God elected to be saved from before time, as in the U. Jesus DID NOT die for any human being that wishes to be saved. They may not call on His name. ONLY those who were chosen by God can avail themselves of the atonement of Christ. No one else.

I: Irresistible Grace
God not only pours His grace on those He elects, but His grace is irrisistible. The person cannot say no to it...the person thinks they WANT to do something, bur really it's God making them do it and in a very sneaky way.

P: Perseverance of the Saints
Those that God chooses will make it to the end. This is where the idea of eternal security, or OSAS, comes from. And, just like all of Calvin's teachings, this one is also not biblically correct. AND, to persevere, it is necessary to do God's works.
Yes, works. Quite a conflict of ideas, right?


Some day, when you have nothing to do, read Calvin's Institutes. You'll be pretty horrified and you'll forever watch your language when speaking about spirituality.

Here's one: 3.24.8

Immediately, Calvin brings up Jesus’ words in Matthew 22:14: “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Does this not contradict Calvin’s teaching that God calls only the elect, and does this not indicate that God desires many more to be saved than only the elect? Not at all, says Calvin, for

there are two species of calling—there is a universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom He designs the call to be a savour of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit He causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.7


The “special call,” or efficacious call, which consists of both the preaching of the gospel and the “internal illumination of the Spirit,”8 is for the elect alone. The call in the preaching comes also to many reprobates, but God’s “design” with the call to them is that it be to them a savour of death and the ground of worse condemnation. Calvin does not regard the external call of the gospel as grace to all hearers or as an expression of God’s sincere desire to save all.

As the Lord by the efficacy of His calling accomplishes towards His elect the salvation to which He had by His eternal counsel destined them, so He has judgments against the reprobate, by which He executes His counsel concerning them. Those, therefore, whom He has created for dishonour during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, He at one time deprives of the means of hearing His word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more.9

source: http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/calvinsdoctrineofcall.html#.W0orUNUzZOc


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 2

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Section 8. Explanation of the saying, that many are called, but few chosen. A twofold call.

The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mat 22: 14), is also very improperly interpreted, (see 3.2.11 and 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear, viz., that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. Now, our Lord seeing that the gospel was published far and wide, was despised by multitudes, and justly valued by few, describes God under the character of a King, who, preparing a great feast, sends his servants all around to invite a great multitude, but can only obtain the presence of a very few, because almost all allege causes of excuse; at length, in consequence of their refusal, he is obliged to send his servants out into the highways to invite every one they meet. It is perfectly clear, that thus far the parable is to be understood of external calling. He afterwards adds, that God acts the part of a kind entertainer, who goes round his table and affably receives his guests; but still if he finds any one not adorned with the nuptial garment, he will by no means allow him to insult the festivity by his sordid dress. I admit that this branch of the parable is to be understood of those who, by a profession of faith, enter the Church, but are not at all invested with the sanctification of Christ. Such disgraces to his Church, such cankers God will not always tolerate, but will cast them forth as their turpitude deserves. Few, then, out of the great number of called are chosen; the calling, however, not being of that kind which enables believers to judge of their election. The former call is common to the wicked, the latter brings with it the spirit of regeneration, which is the earnest and seal of the future inheritance by which our hearts are sealed unto the day of the Lord, (Eph 1: 13, 14). In one word, while hypocrites pretend to piety, just as if they were true worshipers of God, Christ declares that they will ultimately be ejected from the place which they improperly occupy, as it is said in the psalm, "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart," (Psa 15: 1, 2). Again in another passage, "This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob," (Psa 24: 6). And thus the Spirit exhorts believers to patience, and not to murmur because Ishmaelites are mingled with them in the Church since the mask will at length be torn off, and they will be ejected with disgrace.

source: http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/html/institutes/3_24.htm#3.24.8


Nice?

Is this the God you know?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep...just like I used to LET / ALLOW my Kids to have their own CHOICE ad cross the road without looking. Hey, even play in the middle of the road.

And..when I gave them the choice NOT TO go to school.!!!!
Or when they got older..the choice NOT TO get a job..!!
Hey, free to try out drugs ..because I loved them I just let them have their free will...after all, we are all born with a free will.

.

Hugs..xx I won't fight over this..if that is how you see the loving Father who just leaving His creation free to do as they please...whatever the consequence.

Be blessed in what you believe, and I will in mine. :)

You don't understand Helen.
In Calvin's teachings, God does NOT leave us to our consequences.
God is deterministic. He determines every little thing that happens.
He made sin and HE makes you sin.
Everything that happens, GOD makes happen!

You really should read up on this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I haven't thought of this subject since college. A campus ministry discipled me, that believed in predestination, and I had never heard of the term. The more I learned about it, and hung out with my friends there, they were really good people, the more I believed it. So I didn't understand when I told other friends and family about it, they thought I was better then them. If I was as Christ-like back then as I pray people see now, I would have told them, "Well, if you accept Jesus, you don't have to worry about it." :)

As my maturity grew and I learned A LOT more about God's Word, I have come to conclude predestination as you see it here. Because the Bible teaches both. God chooses those who already knows will choose Him. Praise an omniscient, merciful Father who draws everyone and has has chosen those who He already knows will choose Him. He also gives men a free will to not choose His drawing, like turning away a gift from somebody.

I just go back to the basics.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

"Whoever" believes is clear to me. :)

Amen Mayflower.
This disasterous doctrine has lead many away from God.
I'm happy you made it through. John 3:16 is one of my favorite scriptures.
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your testimony.

 

[Nancy]

You don't understand Helen.
In Calvin's teachings, God does NOT leave us to our consequences.
God is deterministic. He determines every little thing that happens.
He made sin and HE makes you sin.
Everything that happens, GOD makes happen!

You really should read up on this.

Yes, I pretty much agree with what you say except for God "made" sin. God created Lucifer, then his name became Satan because of his pride. Satan was in the garden and was used BY GOD to tempt mankind, mankind disobeyed God, hence "sin entered into the world".
God can, obviously do anything He well pleases and He does. As He sees the beginning to the end all at one time, I can see Him using ALL situations for His purpose but, sry my sister, I cannot believe God created sin.

 

[Helen]

I think the problem is that you don't understand what Calvin taught.

Oh sorry. I didn't realize that this thread was about Calvin.

If that had been in the heading I would not have joined the thread.
I don't enjoy discussing 'doctrines' of men.

Hugs ...H

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I pretty much agree with what you say except for God "made" sin. God created Lucifer, then his name became Satan because of his pride. Satan was in the garden and was used BY GOD to tempt mankind, mankind disobeyed God, hence "sin entered into the world".
God can, obviously do anything He well pleases and He does. As He sees the beginning to the end all at one time, I can see Him using ALL situations for His purpose but, sry my sister, I cannot believe God created sin.

It's not ME saying it. Calvin stated this. If God made everything, He also made sin and He also causes us to sin. Not MY idea! I agree with you.

 

[Helen]

@GodsGrace

The TULIP thing...read your definition of each letter...
No, don't agree with them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh sorry. I didn't realize that this thread was about Calvin.

If that had been in the heading I would not have joined the thread.
I don't enjoy discussing 'doctrines' of men.

Hugs ...H

Neither do I!
Amen to that.
If you read the O.P. you'll see why I started it.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

The TULIP thing...read your definition of each letter...
No, don't agree with them.

:)

 

[Nancy]

It's not ME saying it. Calvin stated this. If God made everything, He also made sin and He also causes us to sin. Not MY idea! I agree with you.

OOOOOHHHH! Sry bout dat

 

[Helen]

Some day, when you have nothing to do, read Calvin's Institutes. You'll be pretty horrified and you'll forever watch your language when speaking about spirituality.

Well I doubt that day will ever come!
But I am pretty sure I wouldn't bother even if I had the time..again..I am not interested in doctrines of others.

I just write or speak from my heart, what I believe ...so no, I doubt I will ever "watch my language" ...in case someone misunderstand what I was talking about.
If they want to think that I am speaking calvinspeak then they will , or they will have to ask me.

When a Bank trains people to spot the fake $ bills.
They do not get them to study the fake, but they have an intense study of the genuine. That is what I do...who cares about the fake.
Christ is The True...
Moses endured 'seeing Him' who is invisible.
Many years ago the Lord said to me;- " Always.. Behold The Lamb".