Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[Ronald David Bruno]

You never did explain to us the white horse conundrum your "belief" has to deal with.
You never did explain how the "good" times of Noah and Lot is the description of the world at the end of the tribulation.

So..pleeeaaaase...go away until you have the answer.

WPM is a non-Trinitarian/ Amillennialist ... should have informed you way back. There is no harmonious resolve with this camp - which is why I ignor them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'm sorry, but your imagination has become so bizarre that I've lost any interest in continuing this discussion with you, because you show you have a vivid imagination that is NOT grounded in truth!

Even the wicked, recieve their resurrected bodies back, at the GWTJ.
The resurrected firstfruits from paradise make up resurrected saints already in heaven.
We KNOW the dead in Christ are resurrected.

Since postribs can not, and never have been able, to accurately prove a postrib rapture, and we outnumber their verses 6 to 1, I would think the postrib rapture doctrine would have retired years ago.

Example:
Ask a postribber who was taken preflood (pretrib) in matt 24 ( the one left behind,and one taken, that Jesus taught)

 

[rebuilder 454]

Mat 24.
One taken, one left behind.
Who was banging on the ark door to get in?

 

[rebuilder 454]

The last thing you'll hears is the sliding of the guillotine blade and the gasping of those standing next in line. Perhaps you're looking forward to that.

I think as we are rising up in the pretrib rapture they will still be mocking like the Pharisees at the cross.

They will be gazing up, watching the bottom of our feet,saying, " ha ha ha that is not the rapture!!!!!"

 

[CrowCross]

1 Thessalonians was Authored by the Holy Spirit and penned by the Apostle Paul.

Are you resisting the Holy Spirit of Truth?

No.

 

[CrowCross]

I think as we are rising up in the pretrib rapture they will still be mocking like the Pharisees at the cross.

They will be gazing up, watching the bottom of our feet,saying, " ha ha ha that is not the rapture!!!!!"

Perhaps it's the Greys taking us away.

 

[David in NJ]

No.

When you, or anyone, reverses the Order of Scripture, in effect you are doing what Satan did in the Garden = twist the Truth

"The pre-trib rapture and resurrection gives the believers a new glorified body. That's scripture.

That is NOT Scripture



THIS is Scripture TRUTH = 1 Thess 4:13-18

"the dead in Christ Rise FIRST" - After that(Resurrection) we who are alive & remain are caught UP

Only when the dead in Christ RISE do they receive their Resurrected Glorified Body

 

[rwb]

""Foolishness says Christians should only use parts of God's written Word""
What sort of fool would teach that ANIMAL SACRIFICES are part of the forgiving process today ?
I'm glad you're not that type of FOOL who would use that part of the Bible for today

I don't know of any born again, blood bought Christian that believes the Old Covenant still binds New Covenant believers! That does not mean the Old Covenant is of no value to New Covenant saints of Christ. These things are written to be an example for His body (church). As the Bible tells us ALL Scripture is profitable, and those who want to learn in whole instead of in part will search the whole, and study the whole to show themselves approved unto God. Telling people that since Christians are no longer bound by the Laws of Old, therefore they should use only parts (NT?) of God's written Word, is plain and simply ignorance.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't know of any born again, blood bought Christian that believes the Old Covenant still binds New Covenant believers!

Pretty much correct as there may be a few...who don't understand dispensations.

 

[David in NJ]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 89460

What a AWESOME Scripture for us TODAY = TRULY a MUST READ

Thank You

 

[David in NJ]

WPM is a non-Trinitarian/ Amillennialist ... should have informed you way back. There is no harmonious resolve with this camp - which is why I ignor them.

JESUS is Saying this to us/everyone:
You are correct in ignoring falsehood: non-Trinitarian / Amillennialism
Like you, WPM is SAVED by faith in MY BLOOD/Death & Resurrection and WPM is correct in sharing that pre-trib rapture is just as bad/error against MY Prophetic Words.

A new commandment I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Therefore LISTEN to your brethren when they share MY Truth and correct them with guidance from MY Words when they are in error.

IF we will listen and submit to the Commandment of the LORD, then Satan/Deception/Error will be Defeated by MY Words which are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

@Ronald David Bruno, you can SEE this in Action in Matthew 4:1-11

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Those in the innumerable number had dirty robes.
They are the 5 foolish virgins of mat 25.
They were left behind.

No, Rev. 7:14 says they have been washed by His blood.

prior to their arrival all martyrs were kept under tge altar UNTIL THEIR NUMBER IS COMPLETE.

? Martrys throughout history have gone directly to be with the Lord at the moment of their death.

Now, the innumerable number martyrs, are in the general population, indicating the martyrs are fulfilled.

REV. 7:9 are not an instanteous multitude who are killed simultaneously, this is the Raptured Church.

the ac arrives conquering. Also conquering believers.

We are not conquered at any time by Satan, he is already defeated. He conquers reprobates, those with his mark. Any people during his reign who refuse the mark are certainly persecuted and may be martyred - but Dan. 12 says some make it to see day 1335.

it says power is given the AC to overcome the saints.

True, but physical control does not mean he takes their souls.

it says ALL not in the book recieve the mark. It says even prisoners recieve the mark....even children received it.

Correct, all who are not in the book (not elect), are reprobates.

they all die. All left behind die....or receive the mark.

No, Daniel 12 says blessed are those who make it to day 1335. The GT ( all of it, including His wrath) is over at this time.
And if there was no one left behind, who would repopulate the earth (since all the raptured have received new bodies that DO NOT procreate) during the Millennial Kingdom? Isaiah 11 says infants are born and children die at 100 years old. After the MK there is 2nd resurrection for all those saints who missed the 1st and all mortals who lived during g rhe MK.

It is not biblical for a mid 7yr trib, AOD, a Jewish harvest, and a church rapture at the same time.

Many events happen at the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15 ( which would be Mid- Trib./ Pre-wrath).
1. The mystery of God is accomplished and revealed (Rev. 10:7). Do you know what the mystery of God is?
a.) We will see Him face to face.
b.) We will know what we will be like.
2. The kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of the Lord, so technically he begins His reign and the AC/ Satan' reign is over, ( that's 1260 days
3. the dead are judged,
4. rewards are given.
5. Temple in Heaven is opened (meaning since on earth the Church was the Temple and when they were raptured, the temple is now in heaven instead.
6. The 7 Bowls of wrath are released. This happens at day 1260 and so from that time to day 1335 is the wrath period within the GT.
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days". Dan. 12:11-12

because you have kept the word of my testimony. I will also keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the entire earth."

That message was deliver to Philadelphia, the faithful church. "The seven churches of Revelation existed in the 1st century but were also symbolic representations of the choice types throughout the Church Age".John MacArthur.
Hence, others who were not faithful (virgins who did not have oil in their lamps) had to further go through the fire, more testing.

Jesus indicates a worthy vs unworthy selection to be in the rapture....we see this same, 'worthy vs unworthy ' , in the virgin parable)

The oil represented the Holy Spirit. So many people claim to be Christians are not born again and will be shocked when they miss the rapture; but will be saved, just have to go through it.

>>> Don't be so sure of your view. The "last Trump" (that we all know from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 & 1 Cor. 15:52) may be #7 in Rev. 11:15. If it wasn't and came before the series of seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. If it came after the 7th, it would be the 8th.

 

[amigo de christo]

Most christians are ignorant of Job = What God did with Job is a Prophecy

the question was WHO goes back with JESUS at the pre trib rapture .
The answer is NONE . THERE IS NO pre trib rapture , ONLY a PRE WATH OF GOD rapture .
WHICH ITS ALL A ONE TIME EVENT . FOR JESUS will surely come for his church
WHEN HE COMETH TO ALSO LAY DOWN the WRATH OF ALL MIGHTY GOD
upon all who followed the beast , all who loved a lie , all who denied HIM , his gopsel and or his words .

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't know of any born again, blood bought Christian that believes the Old Covenant still binds New Covenant believers! That does not mean the Old Covenant is of no value to New Covenant saints of Christ. These things are written to be an example for His body (church). As the Bible tells us ALL Scripture is profitable, and those who want to learn in whole instead of in part will search the whole, and study the whole to show themselves approved unto God. Telling people that since Christians are no longer bound by the Laws of Old, therefore they should use only parts (NT?) of God's written Word, is plain and simply ignorance.

Yes, the WHOLE Bible is for us to know yet the WHOLE Bible does not apply to us today

 

[rwb]

Yes, the WHOLE Bible is for us to know yet the WHOLE Bible does not apply to us today

YES, the WHOLE Bible does apply to us! What is written that is not for believers today is the Levitical Laws that were only given to the single nation of Israel of Old. Why? Because when Christ came, He fulfilled, all that was written and required of the Law, written for the nation of Old, who lived under the Law.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, Rev. 7:14 says they have been washed by His blood.

? Martrys throughout history have gone directly to be with the Lord at the moment of their death.

REV. 7:9 are not an instanteous multitude who are killed simultaneously, this is the Raptured Church.

We are not conquered at any time by Satan, he is already defeated. He conquers reprobates, those with his mark. Any people during his reign who refuse the mark are certainly persecuted and may be martyred - but Dan. 12 says some make it to see day 1335.

True, but physical control does not mean he takes their souls.

Correct, all who are not in the book (not elect), are reprobates.

No, Daniel 12 says blessed are those who make it to day 1335. The GT ( all of it, including His wrath) is over at this time.
And if there was no one left behind, who would repopulate the earth (since all the raptured have received new bodies that DO NOT procreate) during the Millennial Kingdom? Isaiah 11 says infants are born and children die at 100 years old. After the MK there is 2nd resurrection for all those saints who missed the 1st and all mortals who lived during g rhe MK.


Many events happen at the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15 ( which would be Mid- Trib./ Pre-wrath).
1. The mystery of God is accomplished and revealed (Rev. 10:7). Do you know what the mystery of God is?
a.) We will see Him face to face.
b.) We will know what we will be like.
2. The kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of the Lord, so technically he begins His reign and the AC/ Satan' reign is over, ( that's 1260 days
3. the dead are judged,
4. rewards are given.
5. Temple in Heaven is opened (meaning since on earth the Church was the Temple and when they were raptured, the temple is now in heaven instead.
6. The 7 Bowls of wrath are released. This happens at day 1260 and so from that time to day 1335 is the wrath period within the GT.
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days". Dan. 12:11-12


That message was deliver to Philadelphia, the faithful church. "The seven churches of Revelation existed in the 1st century but were also symbolic representations of the choice types throughout the Church Age".John MacArthur.
Hence, others who were not faithful (virgins who did not have oil in their lamps) had to further go through the fire, more testing.

The oil represented the Holy Spirit. So many people claim to be Christians are not born again and will be shocked when they miss the rapture; but will be saved, just have to go through it.

>>> Don't be so sure of your view. The "last Trump" (that we all know from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 & 1 Cor. 15:52) may be #7 in Rev. 11:15. If it wasn't and came before the series of seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. If it came after the 7th, it would be the 8th.

QUOTE
"We are not conquered at any time by Satan, he is already defeated. He conquers reprobates, those with his mark. Any people during his reign who refuse the mark are certainly persecuted and may be martyred - but Dan. 12 says some make it to see day 1335."
Satan killed most of the apostles.
Satan is who martyrs saints.
Millions of them.
That is a fact.

QUOTE
"Don't be so sure of your view. The "last Trump" (that we all know from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 & 1 Cor. 15:52) may be #7 in Rev. 11:15. If it wasn't and came before the series of seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. If it came after the 7th, it would be the 8th."

Don't let "last trump" make you think that Jesus was wrong about lot and Noah.
Or cause you to change the virgin parable.

( pssst...all pretrib dynamics taught by Jesus)

QUOTE
"Martrys throughout history have gone directly to be with the Lord at the moment of their death."
We all know that.
I never said otherwise.
What THE BIBLE SAYS...not me... is that they ALL were confined to UNDER the altar.
That would be in heaven, of course.
With the innumerable number, however they are in the general population.

Those under the altar IN HEAVEN, were told they would stay there until their number is completed.
It is so obvious their number was completed or they, ALSO, WOULD BE confined under the altar.

So far you got all answers wrong.

 

[The Light]

First the dead in Christ then the alive ones
The ones LEFT BEHIND then go into the 7 year tribulation
1 Thess 4:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Noah is not shut in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The Church will not be in heaven 7 years before the millennial kingdom begins.

The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the great tribulation.

 

[David in NJ]

Noah is not shut in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The Church will not be in heaven 7 years before the millennial kingdom begins.

The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the great tribulation.

Did you notice your post # ???

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So far you got all answers wrong.

Okay, we're done then, hope the Pre-Trib view is right . There is a mysterious way that the 7th trumpet could actually be blown before all the devastation ... just a theory though. Nice talking to you ... see ya up there.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, Rev. 7:14 says they have been washed by His blood.

? Martrys throughout history have gone directly to be with the Lord at the moment of their death.

REV. 7:9 are not an instanteous multitude who are killed simultaneously, this is the Raptured Church.

We are not conquered at any time by Satan, he is already defeated. He conquers reprobates, those with his mark. Any people during his reign who refuse the mark are certainly persecuted and may be martyred - but Dan. 12 says some make it to see day 1335.

True, but physical control does not mean he takes their souls.

Correct, all who are not in the book (not elect), are reprobates.

No, Daniel 12 says blessed are those who make it to day 1335. The GT ( all of it, including His wrath) is over at this time.
And if there was no one left behind, who would repopulate the earth (since all the raptured have received new bodies that DO NOT procreate) during the Millennial Kingdom? Isaiah 11 says infants are born and children die at 100 years old. After the MK there is 2nd resurrection for all those saints who missed the 1st and all mortals who lived during g rhe MK.


Many events happen at the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15 ( which would be Mid- Trib./ Pre-wrath).
1. The mystery of God is accomplished and revealed (Rev. 10:7). Do you know what the mystery of God is?
a.) We will see Him face to face.
b.) We will know what we will be like.
2. The kingdoms of the world become the Kingdoms of the Lord, so technically he begins His reign and the AC/ Satan' reign is over, ( that's 1260 days
3. the dead are judged,
4. rewards are given.
5. Temple in Heaven is opened (meaning since on earth the Church was the Temple and when they were raptured, the temple is now in heaven instead.
6. The 7 Bowls of wrath are released. This happens at day 1260 and so from that time to day 1335 is the wrath period within the GT.
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days". Dan. 12:11-12


That message was deliver to Philadelphia, the faithful church. "The seven churches of Revelation existed in the 1st century but were also symbolic representations of the choice types throughout the Church Age".John MacArthur.
Hence, others who were not faithful (virgins who did not have oil in their lamps) had to further go through the fire, more testing.

The oil represented the Holy Spirit. So many people claim to be Christians are not born again and will be shocked when they miss the rapture; but will be saved, just have to go through it.

>>> Don't be so sure of your view. The "last Trump" (that we all know from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 & 1 Cor. 15:52) may be #7 in Rev. 11:15. If it wasn't and came before the series of seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. If it came after the 7th, it would be the 8th.

QUOTE
"The oil represented the Holy Spirit. So many people claim to be Christians are not born again and will be shocked when they miss the rapture; but will be saved, just have to go through it."

You did get the oil part correct.
However you are trying to say the 5 foolish were unredeemed heathens.
Lets re-examine the scripture factually.
The foolish had;
Light
Oil
Lamps
Were waiting for Jesus
Sleeping with the wise
AND WERE VIRGINS.
Virgins = pure, set apart, undefined.
Plus the asked for the Holy Spirit from the wise.
(We see this in Acts many times, where the Holy Spirit is given to a believer, via the laying on of Hands....imparted from one believer to another)

So you actually think those believers were heathens???????

There is no way the foolish were not born again.

So, what was the difference???

It was the fact of the AMOUNT of oil.
The wise TOOK EXTRA OIL.
That is the only difference.
Oil, as you say, is the Holy Spirit.