Who I believe God’s elect are

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John Zain

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Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that God is omni-everything.
He knows everything (past, present, future), He sees the end from the beginning, etc.

It is my belief that God predestines, elects, calls, justifies, and glorifies ONLY the elect ...
ONLY those people whose hearts are willing to be sanctified (set apart and made holy) by God.


Scripture describes man as being totally sinful, rebellious, at enmity with God, etc.
but evidently some do not quite fit this mold.
Maybe God actually predestines them to be molded (i.e. created) this way.

Romans 9:11, 9:16, etc. says election has nothing to do with what people will DO after they are born.

The elect …
8:28 … love God
8:29 … are foreknown to be pleasing to Him
8:29 … are predestined to be sanctified (made as sinless and holy as Jesus was)
8:30 … are predestined, called, justified, glorified

This unusual heart attitude of being willing to be sanctified agrees with …
Matthew 7:
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to (eternal) life,
and there are few who find it.
 

Lively Stone

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Those God knew beforehand who would choose Christ, He gave them a pre-destiny to become like Christ. God does not orchestrate who will and who will not come. I think what is the common misconception of many people is to believe that God chooses who will know Him and chooses against others. That couldn't be further from the truth. The choice is all ours, even though God is aware of what it is.
 
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prism

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Those God knew beforehand who would choose Christ, He gave them a pre-destiny to become like Christ. God does not orchestrate who will and who will not come. I think what is the common misconception of many people is to believe that God chooses who will know Him and chooses against others. That couldn't be further from the truth. The choice is all ours, even though God is aware of what it is.

Do you have Scripture backing for "Those God knew beforehand who would choose Christ,":?
You can't quote 'For whom God foreknew' because He foreknew all men (but not all are saved) AND it does not say 'who would choose Christ'.
In other words God's choice is not dependent on our choice. We may not know on what basis God makes His choice but we do no that it has nothing to do with one person being more noble because in a future time that one person will 'choose to believe'.
 

justaname

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http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA183
Fitting here and not very long either. Interesting about the active portion.
The issue being all reject, except those whom God elects. Romans 9:21 is the answer.
Did not God chose Jacob over Esau? Malachi 1:2-5
Just as God chose Abram, Noah, David, and everything else, He chose me to love Him. Thanks be to God, blessed be His Name.
 

Lively Stone

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Do you have Scripture backing for "Those God knew beforehand who would choose Christ,":?
You can't quote 'For whom God foreknew' because He foreknew all men (but not all are saved) AND it does not say 'who would choose Christ'.
In other words God's choice is not dependent on our choice. We may not know on what basis God makes His choice but we do no that it has nothing to do with one person being more noble because in a future time that one person will 'choose to believe'.

The passage itself is talking about those God foreknew, and that He predestined them only to become like Christ...not those He doesn't know.


.
 

John Zain

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The passage itself is talking about those God foreknew,
and that He predestined them only to become like Christ...not those He doesn't know.

Yes, the "foreknew" is mysterious to me ... why is it in there?
But, God obviously foreknew all men, elect and non-elect.

I'd like to enhance the OP ...
The elect …
8:28 … love God
8:28 ... are the called according to God's purpose
8:29 … are foreknown
8:29 … are predestined to be conformed (i.e. sanctified) to the likeness of the sinless/holy Jesus
8:30 … are predestined, called, justified, glorified
 
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prism

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According to the Word Study Dictionary (Zodhiates)

"G4267

προγινώσκω
proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253), before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know. To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.

(II) Used of God's eternal counsel it includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point. Rather, it is presented as that which God gave prior consent to, that which received His favorable or special recognition. Hence, this term is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained."
 

veteran

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Pretty deep topic, and confusing for many. All of Christ's body (His Church) that overcome in Him are His elect.


Rom 8:28-39
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That 29th verse we need to be careful with, for that does not mean we can become our own 'Christ' (totally without sin in the flesh), but to be in likeness of character, i.e., 'sons of God'.


30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God That justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ That died, yea rather, That is risen again, Who is even at the right hand of God, Who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him That loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(KJV)


Paul's 38-39 verses show it's about those who continue in Christ Jesus, those which nothing can separate them from the love of God.

So, was Saul (Paul) a chosen elect prior to Christ striking him down on the road to Damascus per Acts 9? Afterall, Saul was zealous for God even in his ignorance of persecuting Christ's Church before our Lord converted him.
 

justaname

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Pretty deep topic, and confusing for many. All of Christ's body (His Church) that overcome in Him are His elect.


Rom 8:28-39
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That 29th verse we need to be careful with, for that does not mean we can become our own 'Christ' (totally without sin in the flesh), but to be in likeness of character, i.e., 'sons of God'.


30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God That justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ That died, yea rather, That is risen again, Who is even at the right hand of God, Who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him That loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(KJV)


Paul's 38-39 verses show it's about those who continue in Christ Jesus, those which nothing can separate them from the love of God.

So, was Saul (Paul) a chosen elect prior to Christ striking him down on the road to Damascus per Acts 9? Afterall, Saul was zealous for God even in his ignorance of persecuting Christ's Church before our Lord converted him.
I would say yes, because God is not bound to our time and space, thereby those He elects are elected before the foundations of the world. Therefore Saul was chosen by God although his actions didn't reflect it, yet Paul lived in Saul since birth. Those who are in the Father's hands can not be removed.
To reflect on the word elect is to see one is picked or elected. Those who are chosen by God for His purposes will conform to God's will.
 

veteran

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I would say yes, because God is not bound to our time and space, thereby those He elects are elected before the foundations of the world. Therefore Saul was chosen by God although his actions didn't reflect it, yet Paul lived in Saul since birth. Those who are in the Father's hands can not be removed.
To reflect on the word elect is to see one is picked or elected. Those who are chosen by God for His purposes will conform to God's will.

That's how I interpret it also, except with another condition not yet discussed here.

In John 17 when our Lord Jesus was praying to The Father, He spoke of His chosen Apostles which He claimed that belonged to The Father beforehand, and were given to Jesus. Our Lord Jesus said those were 'sent' like He was, and like Him were not of this world. He prayed for their protection and work.

Then, starting at John 17:20, our Lord Jesus spoke of another group besides His chosen Apostles, saying He prayed not just for His Apostles, but also for those who come to Him through their word (i.e., preaching of The Gospel). That is how I interpret what our Lord Jesus said about many are called, but few are chosen.

And in the final verses, Jesus said they all were to be as one in Him and The Father (i.e., His Church).

That's pointing to a decided structure on earth by our Lord for His Church, with a group of elect chosen before the foundation of this world (like His Apostles), and then the remaining structure of His Church here to be filled with those 'called'.

Deeper....

This part many may not yet understand (nor like). But if this matter is continued with in-depth Bible study, the result understanding should be the same for all of us.

Christ's elect, like His chosen sent ones, can NEVER be turned away from Him, nor from their commission in Christ Jesus. Those are especially who Paul was speaking about in the Romans 8 example of predestination. They include God's chosen Patriarchs like Abraham, Moses, David and the prophets, etc., and Christ's Apostles, and certain ones all the way down to the time of Christ's coming. We have several Bible examples of this group of elect 'chosen' ones, Apostle Paul being one of the prime examples with Christ converting Him personally by himself. With this group, God already... owned them before they were born. He ordained them out of the womb for His Gospel Salvation Plan. And because of that, God has directly intervened in their lives, putting them back to the 'plow' if they start to stray even a little (like Jonah trying to get out of his ordained duty to preach to Nineveh). Thus these are already sanctified and glorified and justified as Paul said in Rom.8.

With the second group, those 'called' only, God will not always directly intervene if these choose to stray from Christ and fall away. The examples of falling away within five of the seven Churches in Asia represent this matter (Rev.2 & 3). Some of these will stray from Christ during the future tribulation especially, wrongly bowing in false worship to the coming pseudo-Christ just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. That's a specific testing upon this final generation of many of God's people for today, that are called to Christ Jesus.

This is why we find Apostle Paul's many warnings to the Churches against falling away, and admonitions to stay focused on our Lord Jesus Christ and His Salvation to come. And this is also why there exists chosen sent ones also today that consistently give those same warnings and admonitions to the called in Christ's Church today. Paul knew what was going to occur towards the end, as Peter and other Apostles did also...


Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(KJV)

Jude 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

II Jn 1:7-8
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
(KJV)

I Jn 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(KJV)

2 Pet 3:17-18
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
(KJV)

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)
 

ttruscott

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Good morning,
popping up for the first time here. I spend a lot of time on free will and election so this is nice, very nice. Eveyone is so polite here and the topic got covered so quickly. Ok, enough with the soft soap...:)

Preamble:
My 1st premise is is always GOD is LOVE. If a doctrine seems to fail the test of love, then it is the doctrine that is false, not HIS love. My second premise is that GOD's purpose for us is for us to love and glorify HIM forever.

Now you are about to find out I like looooong posts, <sigh>. I believe that we existed as spirits in GOD's image in Sheol (the spirit world) before the foundation of the world, (a theory of creation called pre-conception existance or PCE), and it was there and then we made our free will choices and were elected.

Here is a short essay on election from the pre-conception existance pov. It is written rather strongly in a "this is the way it is" style and while I believe it, I'm usually not so dogmatic, myself. It does sum up the ideas very well.

Romans 5:8 - While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

At the time Christ died for you, were you yet a sinner? According to preconception theology you were, without any twisting, reinterpretations or theological wonders. Seems that Paul might have thought so too...

Romans 8:29 - For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life on earth. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not "before life" know everybody in the manner of verse 8:29 since not everyone will become like Jesus, as per
Revelation 20:15,
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As more than one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD before creation/life love some and not the rest?

The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

Romans 9:11 - For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge being particular can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures, we must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

"Unreasonable chance" would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before creation" love. Whom GOD elects / foreknows is based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, a new understanding from GOD, to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to preconception theology, the before life love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life-on-earth (NOT pre-creation) approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced true free will choice of HIS child and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some before life on earth and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen by free wil to eternally defile themselves and some had not.
Some had decidedby free wil to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly (the angels), and others (the fallen church) only if HE was infallibly gracious to them. Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other, evil ones, for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.

To explore how my thoughts go a little more... Let's consider "works."

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception, which is not my point. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate preconception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.

May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, i.e., no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life on earth.

[Aside: Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre-life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose that this isn't necessary, but I would like to (first) point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-existence.]

The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us, to love and glorify HIM forever. But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced true free will choice on our part for us to ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD, since true love and true worship can only come by true choice.

Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, being called in accord with a preconception work and HIS gracious covenant to those who performed that work.

The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too.
1 Timothy 5:21
I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.


Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), in that they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity”. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they can not be held accountable for someone else's evil choices. In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly).

Perhaps someone would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them?

If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures, (the pre-fall angels of the satanic rebellion) being unjustly unpredestined to remain in heaven?

And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?

Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that true free will choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.

Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.

May I submit that the only thing going against that possibility is the presupposition that Paul, in 2 Timothy 1:9 is excluding all our works, and I have to admit, that is what it seems to say, that is, what it seems to say until we look at Paul's definition of elective works in

Romans 9:11 - For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth.

Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses.

And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 - And the children struggled together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil (works).

But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were fighting so much in the womb. Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works. (Or we'd have to admit that they were each fighting the other by the will of GOD.)

Well now, we either have a blatant contradiction and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.

So this is how I understand these verses and how they are extrapolated from the two premises from which I try to interpret scripture.

Since damnation of HIS beloved children is on the line, election must be based on a reason, not whim.

Foreknowledge of us before our creation does not work because He did not have to create those HE foreknew would rebel against HIM.

The fact that they were created and are under HIS wrath is proof that foreknow must have come after their true free will choice whose results HE did not, before the choice, know.
~RLC

So, thanks for your patience. I hope you understand me a bit better. On to other posts, now... :)
 

John Zain

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Paul's Romans 8:38-39 verses show it's about those who continue in Christ Jesus,
those which nothing can separate them from the love of God.
So, was Saul (Paul) a chosen elect prior to Christ striking him down on the road to Damascus per Acts 9?

After all, Saul was zealous for God even in his ignorance of persecuting Christ's Church before our Lord converted him.

The NKJV has verse 31 starting a new paragraph (going until verse 39)
... with the heading "God's everlasting love".

All of God's OT prophets, etc. were specially chosen, but will they all make Heaven?
If anyone was a chosen elect, it was Saul/Paul.


Muslims are zealous for God, but not quite our God.
Allah is Satan's "god" ... He is not the God of the Bible.
 

John Zain

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Welcome to my latest effort ... please proceed with much caution:

Conditional election
(1) - God chooses people with absolutely no regard to future good deeds, bad deeds, etc.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
as we do accept the foundational truth:
sin --> spiritual death (separation from God).
(2) - But, God chooses depending on what he sees in peoples' hearts:

“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23).
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chron. 28:9).
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15).

And there are many verses which talk of other attributes which are pleasing to God, such as:
-- a repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary.
-- the "poor" (in many various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude.
(3) - Does God actually create His elect with such attributes as: love God, meek, humble, repentant, etc.?
I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.


Free will
But, these people above may (or may not) choose to go along with God's sanctification process
(to be made more holy and sinless), which is performed by the precious Holy Spirit.


God's true elect
"God knows those who are His." (2 Timothy 2:19).
These people are the ones who choose to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" (Revelation 2-3).
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's
Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who will make it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.
 

ttruscott

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Feb 3, 2012
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Welcome to my latest effort ... please proceed with much caution:

Conditional election
(1) - God chooses people with absolutely no regard to future good deeds, bad deeds, etc.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
as we do accept the foundational truth:
sin --> spiritual death (separation from God).
(2) - But, God chooses depending on what he sees in peoples' hearts:

“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23).
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chron. 28:9).
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15).

And there are many verses which talk of other attributes which are pleasing to God, such as:
-- a repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary.
-- the "poor" (in many various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude.
(3) - Does God actually create His elect with such attributes as: love God, meek, humble, repentant, etc.?
I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.


Free will
But, these people above may (or may not) choose to go along with God's sanctification process
(to be made more holy and sinless), which is performed by the precious Holy Spirit.


God's true elect
"God knows those who are His." (2 Timothy 2:19).
These people are the ones who choose to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" (Revelation 2-3).
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's
Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who will make it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.


But, Foreknowledge of us before our creation does not work because He did not have to create those HE foreknew would rebel against HIM.

And Free Will does not work after our birth due to Romans 7:14-25 because we are slaves to sin.

ONLY the time after our creation but before our birth on earth is open for these doctrines...

God bless...

Ted
 

John Zain

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'Tis said that patience is a virtue ... I have changed my post #13 to the following:

Unconditional election
(1) -- God chooses people with absolutely no regard to future good deeds, bad deeds, etc.
Because ALL men are more than hopelessly mired in their sinful nature (compared to the Holy God),
as we do accept the foundational truth:
sin --> spiritual death (separation from God).
(2) -- But, God chooses depending on what he sees in peoples' hearts:

“I am the One who searches the hearts and minds of people” (Revelation 2:23).
“... the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chron. 28:9).
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15).

And there are many verses concerning other attributes which are pleasing to God,
such as a repentant heart towards Him, which is absolutely necessary.
(3) -- Question: Does God actually create His elect with such attributes as: love God, meek, humble,
repentant, etc.? I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.


Free will
God knows that whom He has elected will choose to be sanctified (try hard to be made holy and sinless).
"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).
"... that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." (Colossians 1:28).


God's true elect
"... the solid foundation of God stands ... “The Lord knows those who are His” (2 Timothy 2:19).
These people are the ones who have chosen to be sanctified, and are the "overcomers" (Revelation 2-3).
And these are the ones mentioned in Paul's
Romans 8:28-30.
God's true elect are the overcomers who will make it through to the end with the help of the Holy Spirit.
 

ttruscott

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Feb 3, 2012
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From my rare pov, GOD created us all equal with equal potential, the ability to fulfill HIS plan for us which (probably: fill in your own if you want) was to love HIM and glorify HIM forever. HIS love is unconditional for those who can fulfill HIS purpose for us and HIS hate is unconditional for those who, by rejecting HIM, have made themselves eternally unable to fulfill HIS plan for them.

(3) -- Question: Does God actually create His elect with such attributes as: love God, meek, humble,
repentant, etc.? I mean, it is His great desire and purpose to have some people accepted into Heaven.


Also, to my mind, some of these attributes would vastly manipulate our true free will choice which can only be made if we are in a ingenuously innnocent state with no propensity in our created nature to go one way or the other.

To love and to glorify truly must come from an uncoerced heart, a true free will choice, so if I was created to choose /seek GOD, or to be meek and humble in the face of anyone who claimed authority, part of my choice would be HIS work and not my free will so I'd be unable to fulfill HIS plan.

Since we know HE wants all to be saved, we know that if someone isn't, there was nothing left of HIM to do. Since Romans 7:14-25 is pretty clear (to some of us) that there is no free will on earth being enslaved tosin and all, we must have had our choices some other time in the past.

God bless...

Ted
 

John Zain

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GOD created us all equal with equal potential, the ability to fulfill HIS plan for us
which ... was to love HIM and glorify HIM forever.
... some of these attributes would vastly manipulate our true free will choice

which can only be made if we are in a ingenuously innnocent state
with no propensity in our created nature to go one way or the other.

GOD certainly didn't "create us all equal with equal potential" in any other area.
I take it that you do not believe in original sin and all of its consequences.

Sorry, but you will find very few born-again Christians who will side with you in these matters.
Might just as well go and converse with unbelievers.
But, if you have any sincere questions ...
 

ttruscott

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Feb 3, 2012
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I take it that you do not believe in original sin and all of its consequences.

t. The origninal sinI believe in was not from Adam but through him, and, as per
Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

we are all responsible for our own sin messing up our lives. No free will is anathema to me. Election for no reason is anathema to me. I praise GOD that HE has allowed me to follow the Holy Spirit in these things. I don't care if no one follows me, but you are not the first to tell someone with an unpopular opinion to go to the unbliever.

Yet I believe everything you have written here, and all my understand does is explain how it works.

God bless...

Ted.
 

John Zain

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Sep 16, 2010
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The origninal sin I believe in was not from Adam but through him, and, as per Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,

neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
we are all responsible for our own sin messing up our lives. No free will is anathema to me.

Election for no reason is anathema to me. I praise GOD that HE has allowed me to follow the
Holy Spirit in these things. I don't care if no one follows me, but you are not the first to tell
someone with an unpopular opinion to go to the unbliever.
Yet I believe everything you have written here, and all my understand does is explain how it works.

Well, for starters, all you have to do is look at everyone ... they're all sinners, every one.
Then, how about the 10+ verses which teach original sin and man's sin nature?

Note: the only people who believe in original sin are Christians,
and they're the only ones who have been given the Holy Spirit!
I.E. Jews, Muslims, etc. do not believe in original sin.

I've read that your Ezekiel 18 is talking about physical death, but don't have time to check it now.
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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Well, for starters, all you have to do is look at everyone ... they're all sinners, every one.
Then, how about the 10+ verses which teach original sin and man's sin nature?

Note: the only people who believe in original sin are Christians,
and they're the only ones who have been given the Holy Spirit!
I.E. Jews, Muslims, etc. do not believe in original sin.

I've read that your Ezekiel 18 is talking about physical death, but don't have time to check it now.

Christian didn't believe in original sin until Augstine.
 
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