Who I believe God’s elect are

[FHII]

Yep..... Someone's gotta.

 

[Lively Stone]

Yep..... Someone's gotta.

That is a completely nonsensical comment. Please elaborate and use scripture, if you can.

 

[justaname]

Yes, many are destined for judgment, but not predetermined, for all have the opportunity for saving faith, Jews and Gentiles alike:

Romans 2:14-15
Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Yes I believe all are given the opportunity for to believe is only a choice away, and that choice can be gained by hearing. I will continue to share to all even if they reject the gospel. Yet, God knows who will accept that choice and those who will not. To those who will not, nothing I can say will sway their decision. With all the faith He has given me to believe, He has given them just as much, if not more, to not believe.

IMHO
To be a part of God's elect is to be elected by God to have faith in Him, those He does not elect can never come to that faith on their own. We, like in the case of Abraham and Sodom, can intercede on behalf of the non elect, but in the end we will be shown God was right all along.

This is why we can plant and water the seed, but it is God who grows that inside you.

 

[FHII]

That is a completely nonsensical comment. Please elaborate and use scripture, if you can.

Tares are meant to be bundled and burned. It's pretty simple. Matthew 13 says that the tares are the children of the wicked one. The angels are the reapers and the devil sowed them. So the tares were meant to be burned. Mark 4 says Jesus spoke in parables because if he didn't, they would understand, be converted and their sins would be forgiven. Appearently Jesus didn't want that to happen.


As for the false teachers, unless you think Satan himself is personally is teaching them, the false teachers are those doing his bidding. But who sent them to the tares? God did. See 2 Th 2:11. God is the one sending the strong delusion. See for yourself:

2Th 2:10

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Lively Stone]

Tares are meant to be bundled and burned. It's pretty simple. Matthew 13 says that the tares are the children of the wicked one. The angels are the reapers and the devil sowed them. So the tares were meant to be burned. Mark 4 says Jesus spoke in parables because if he didn't, they would understand, be converted and their sins would be forgiven. Appearently Jesus didn't want that to happen.


As for the false teachers, unless you think Satan himself is personally is teaching them, the false teachers are those doing his bidding. But who sent them to the tares? God did. See 2 Th 2:11. God is the one sending the strong delusion. See for yourself:

2Th 2:10

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes, tares are to be burned, and false teachers are agents of Satan, and do not do the reaping, as they also are tares.

 

[FHII]

Yes, tares are to be burned, and false teachers are agents of Satan, and do not do the reaping, as they also are tares.

Yes, I can go with that.... They are tares also in the same way a true teacher is both a sheep (of Christ's) and a shepherd.

Though they be agents of Satan, they are still part of God's overall will.

 

[Lively Stone]

Yes, I can go with that.... They are tares also in the same way a true teacher is both a sheep (of Christ's) and a shepherd.

Though they be agents of Satan, they are still part of God's overall will.

False teachers are not of God's will. They are agents of Satan doing his will. God doesn't undermine Himself.

 

[FHII]

False teachers are not of God's will. They are agents of Satan doing his will. God doesn't undermine Himself.

If God sent strong delusions, spoke in parables and declared the end from the beginning, they must be part of God's will. Not favorably for them, but still part of the overall will of God.

 

[John Zain]

If God sent strong delusions, spoke in parables and declared the end from the beginning, they must be part of God's will.
Not favorably for them, but still part of the overall will of God.

Perhaps you've not heard about the perfect will of God, and the permissive will of God.
He, of course, permits all kinds terrible and evil things to happen.
But, sometimes, He prevents bad things from happening ...
... because they would interfere with His perfect will.
One example: I know without any doubt at all that I was protected, provided for, and many etc's
(which we considered to be miracles) while I was evangelising in Communist Eastern Europe.

 

[FHII]

Perhaps you've not heard about the perfect will of God, and the permissive will of God.
He, of course, permits all kinds terrible and evil things to happen.
But, sometimes, He prevents bad things from happening ...
... because they would interfere with His perfect will.
One example: I know without any doubt at all that I was protected, provided for, and many etc's
(which we considered to be miracles) while I was evangelising in Communist Eastern Europe.

Yes, John... I have heard of them as well as the devine will of God.

 

[Lively Stone]

If God sent strong delusions, spoke in parables and declared the end from the beginning, they must be part of God's will. Not favorably for them, but still part of the overall will of God.

That is not the same as the sinful defiance of false teachers. God's will is that teachers who claim to be His teach the word. We are not to be going around calling evil good and good evil.

Isaiah 5:20
What sorrow for those who say that evil is good and good is evil, that dark is light and light is dark, that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.

 

[FHII]

That is not the same as the sinful defiance of false teachers. God's will is that teachers who claim to be His teach the word. We are not to be going around calling evil good and good evil.

Isaiah 5:20
What sorrow for those who say that evil is good and good is evil, that dark is light and light is dark, that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.

That's almost true.... Had you said it is God's will that teachers that ARE his teach the Word, you'd be correct. Furthermore, those that ARE his don't call evil good and good evil. It doesn't change the fact that God fore ordained them to condemnation.

Not all that name the name of Christ are His.... Some do so and God said he doesn't even know them. Yet, they are part of God's will.

 

[Lively Stone]

That's almost true.... Had you said it is God's will that teachers that ARE his teach the Word, you'd be correct. Furthermore, those that ARE his don't call evil good and good evil. It doesn't change the fact that God fore ordained them to condemnation.

Not all that name the name of Christ are His.... Some do so and God said he doesn't even know them. Yet, they are part of God's will.

Many who claim to be Christ's aren't. That is the point. God doesn't undermine Himself. People are not foreordained to condemnation. They are foreordained to hear the truth of the Gospel and to decide for or against God, and it is solely their choice. God only knows what the choice will be, but He doesn't orchestrate it.

Matthew 18:14
In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[ttruscott]

I do not disagree God is correct in damning those He judges. What I present is what we are taught by God, to love your enemies, elect or non-elect.

To be sure also, sanctification comes from the HolySpirit. It is the love of Christ that led Him to the cross, so yes it is enough to give us sanctification.

What I see here in this world are human beings, born into total depravity, in bondage to sin. Jesus Christ being the only solution to sin and the final judgement. God wants all to be reconciled to Him, yet He knows the hearts that will be. I know only what is revealed to me through His word, being the foremost authority, and His HolySpirit, being the final authority. Thereby every person I see is another person waiting to be set free of the trappings of this world.

I have a neighbor who is vehemently atheist. He told me he was born and forced Catholic. He obviously left the church. Long story short I told him God wants to deliver us from evil, which he denied. "It doesn't say that in the Bible" he said. He was trying to go so far as to say evil didn't exist, which I disproved. Then he stood on, "Well I don't believe in sin." I cited the Lords prayer, and he melted. Then I said, "To be bold, everything everywhere wants to be delivered from evil." It is Satan that needs to be rebuked, not the nonbeliever. I can only attempt to retrieve from the claws of Satan, as many as I can, God willing. To be sure it says to love your neighbor as yourself. I can only pray God gives me the wisdom, time, and perseverance to awake my neighbor for his impending doom. Do you not think he belittles my view, and my God, yet I accept that in humility, by the love and grace given by the HolySpirit. Should I be surprised he sees the cross as foolishness? If I gave up on him, I might as well give up on myself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Or should I set myself at the "Christian hypocrite standard?"

Matthew 25:31-46

I will show kindness to the least of all of these, by loving my enemy. To be great in the Kingdom of God is to be servant to all. I will serve the elect as well as the non-elect.

Well said...

Peace,

Ted

 

[FHII]

Many who claim to be Christ's aren't. That is the point. God doesn't undermine Himself. People are not foreordained to condemnation. They are foreordained to hear the truth of the Gospel and to decide for or against God, and it is solely their choice. God only knows what the choice will be, but He doesn't orchestrate it.

Matthew 18:14
In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

That is simply not what the Bible says. again, Jude 1:4 says, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation...." If you need more backing that some were foreordained, read about Jacob and Esau in Romans 9:11-4. God hated Esau before either of them were even born. You can also read about why God raised up Pharoah in verse 17. Furthermore, if you go back to Exodus, it was God who hardened his heart... Pharoah didn't harden his own heart.

If you want to discuss Mat 18:14, realize who Jesus was talking to. He was telling the disciples that they would have to become as a particular little child whom Jesus called over and the child came.

2 peter 3:9 isn't talking about "everyone" either. it is talking about us-ward. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward...."he didn't say everyone. Not everyone gets this promise. Acts 2:39 says the promise is to as many as the Lord thy God shall call. Matthew 22:14 says many are called [note it didn't say "all are called'] and it also says few are chosen.

 

[Lively Stone]

God doesn;t want ANYONE to perish. Who do you think he sent His Son to suffer and die for? THE WORLD!!

John 3:16 is the Gospel message in a nutshell, and no morphing into some other message is acceptable.

 

[FHII]

God doesn;t want ANYONE to perish. Who do you think he sent His Son to suffer and die for? THE WORLD!!

John 3:16 is the Gospel message in a nutshell, and no morphing into some other message is acceptable.

He loved the world, not everyone in it. Many if not all the parables demonstrate this. Furthermore, in the very parable we started this discourse (the bundling of the tares) Jesus said the world was the field and people were the seed.

The world does not mean all people. Otherwise, Jesus would've said "God so loved everyone..." If you read all of John Chapter 3 you can see it's more of a warning than it is "God loves everybody".

 

[ttruscott]

You don't mind if I open my thoughts a bit more eh? Not to preach but to explain....

Learn about suffering from the "non-elect"??? What convolution!

We suffer because we live in a fallen world along with the unsaved and the saved alike.

This is what I meant according to the language I use, separating the unsaved into elect and non-elect.

God doesn't CHOOSE who will and who will not become His elect.

Yes, we agree here, HE let us choose.

He KNOWS who will and who will not be His elect.

Can't accept this if it implies that HE created some knowing they would end in hell. That some do end hell is proof enough for me to know that the GOD who is Love , did not know their end before HE created them or before they chose to reject HIM.

WE do the choosing.

AMEN! AGREED, but, while slaves to sin?

He has a sovereign plan for EVERYONE,

And each life chosen for HIS elect is the perfect life to get us into Christ so we can fulfill HIS plan that we come to love HIM and glorify HIM forever.

and that is that everyone come to know Him and become the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Since not everyone will fulfill this plan as you wrote it, I'd have to hcange it to "all the elect," instead.

We are ALL predestined to the Lake of Fire at birth, and it is by the work and the call of Holy Spirit that the truth of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Redeemer is revealed to us. Those of us who receive Christ are then considered predestined to become like Jesus.

We can't be predestined to two opposite places at the same time so since we were predestined to HIS love before the creation of the world,
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
I can't agree.

That we are all worthy of the judgment to the Lake of Fire at birth is acceptable.

God bless...

Ted

 

[FHII]

"Lively Stone, on 17 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

God doesn't CHOOSE who will and who will not become His elect.

Yes, we agree here, HE let us choose."


Joh 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:19

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

2Th 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
　

 

[ttruscott]

...
People are not foreordained to condemnation. ...

seems to contradict:

...
We are ALL predestined to the Lake of Fire at birth,
...

In peace,

Ted