Who is Jesus Christ?

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

What has been proven?...as you and I do not agree. You have said that Jesus without a body or flesh, is the Father. Jesus before He received a body, was God the Son. This why I said the Son is never the Father. Both are God, but distinct persons.

here is the Proof. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". (is not this the one whom you calls Father, the LORD all caps?), now this,

Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last".
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". (Is not this the Lord Jesus, the one whom you say is the Son?)

You said, "The Son is never the Father". but, do not your doctrine of the trinity say the Father is "First" persons in the Godhead?. but clearly here The Lord Jesus is the "First".
please reconcile this ok.

(John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

what was the "Glory" the Lord Jesus had before the world was? .... I'll let you answer that, but he said the Glory I had "with" thee before the world. ok, if they are two separate persons, scripture,
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images".

we can answer this quickly and clearly. his "Glory". Remember now the Lord Jesus is Glorified, after his resurrection.
Revelation 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Question, who sits on the throne, answer "THE CREATOR", ok, who?, is it the one called the Father or the Son?. this will answer all of John 17. who receive the glory is the "CREATOR".
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Son)

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself", (Father)

ok stranger who sits on the throne according to Rev 4:11 and recieve "GLORY", as the "CREATOR"?, your answer please.




remember you said, "the Father is not the Son"

 

[101G]

You cannot separate Jesus from his message. A false message = a false Jesus.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) (KJV 1900)

Jesus is the Message. for is not JESUS the Father without flesh and blood?

 

[Dave L]

Jesus is the Message. for is not JESUS the Father without flesh and blood?

Jesus is the word of God. Also called the Son of God. Second person of the trinity.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last".
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". (Is not this the Lord Jesus, the one whom you say is the Son?)

You said, "The Son is never the Father". but, do not your doctrine of the trinity say the Father is "First" persons in the Godhead?. but clearly here The Lord Jesus is the "First".
please reconcile this ok.

Not saying you are wrong either but (IMO) you can’t use ‘First’ to prove a point concerning the Godhead. Not when ‘first’ and ‘last’ refers to flesh and Spirit...rather than the first position of the godhead. If that is true wouldn’t it be equality in the Godhead since that is what He is?

Matthew 20:16
[16] So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

1 Corinthians 15:46
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

If you will receive it then Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Bring to Life: “I am He that Liveth (resurrection Spirit), and was flesh(dead) ; BEHOLD (See) I am alive for evermore...and have the keys of hell and of death.” Amen.

 

[Stranger]

No because both deny that Jesus is the Son of God.

Mormons because while Jesus is the Son of God he is only the son of the god of this whorld and not the God of creation. Mormons believe in many gods and that they too will become a god.

JW because Jesus is Michael, a god and not the Son of God.

I don't believe you paid attention to what was said. I said, disregard the doctrine of the said Church. If a person was part of the Mormon or Roman or Seventh Day Adventist church, or Jehovah Witness, and wanted Christ as His Lord and Saviour, and prayed to God for that, how much doctrine are you requiring him to know about Jesus in order to be saved? How much did Jesus require of Peter?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You cannot separate Jesus from his message. A false message = a false Jesus.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) (KJV 1900)

And if a Mormon or Seventh Day Adventist, or Jehovah Witness, or Romanist, comes to Christ, will he be saved? How much doctrine are you requiring him to know about Christ in order to be saved? How much did Peter know?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Not saying you are wrong. I struggle with this because to not recognize them as separate is to extinguish the love of the Father for Son and the love of the Son for the Father. The mutual relationship of love, respect and honour. It doesn’t seem to be God loves himself but rather The Father extends His love to another (His seed) the Son.

You said we are to know Jesus who was (is)the greatest man who ever walked the earth. What about 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

John 8:15-18
[15] Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. [16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. [17] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. [18] I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

I'm not sure what you are contending about here. Where is it you see we differ?

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm not sure what you are contending about here. Where is it you see we differ?

Stranger

To focus too much of the flesh man of Jesus, the Son. I’m not sure I’m contending or differing just, even when I first came here to the board I saw Jesus still hanging on the cross. I couldn’t see resurrection life, only death. Every one, even atheist mention the man Jesus and often in that what He represented (a good man) or taught is nothing like what they hear “Christians” teach. Very rarely do they recognize Christ who is resurrected Spirit but will admit there may have been a man named Jesus. Isn’t it that one must believe...not in His death but in His resurrection Life? I could be wrong but isn’t that the focus of some other religions that Jesus did die but the resurrection never took place but rather He was just a man...a Prophet and great teacher but not resurrection Life?

must we believe in Jesus? “The greatest man to ever walk the earth” : A great teacher and prophet. Or must we believe in Christ whom was raised from the dead?

 

[Stranger]

GINOLJC, to all.

here is the Proof. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". (is not this the one whom you calls Father, the LORD all caps?), now this,

Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last".
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". (Is not this the Lord Jesus, the one whom you say is the Son?)

You said, "The Son is never the Father". but, do not your doctrine of the trinity say the Father is "First" persons in the Godhead?. but clearly here The Lord Jesus is the "First".
please reconcile this ok.


what was the "Glory" the Lord Jesus had before the world was? .... I'll let you answer that, but he said the Glory I had "with" thee before the world. ok, if they are two separate persons, scripture,
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images".

we can answer this quickly and clearly. his "Glory". Remember now the Lord Jesus is Glorified, after his resurrection.
Revelation 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Question, who sits on the throne, answer "THE CREATOR", ok, who?, is it the one called the Father or the Son?. this will answer all of John 17. who receive the glory is the "CREATOR".
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Son)

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself", (Father)

ok stranger who sits on the throne according to Rev 4:11 and recieve "GLORY", as the "CREATOR"?, your answer please.




remember you said, "the Father is not the Son"

Yes, the Son is never the Father. The Father is never the Son. The Holy Spirit is never the Father. The Father and Son are never the Holy Spirit. But they are God. Jesus said, (John 14:7), "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also...". Also, (John 14:9) "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" Also, (John 14:11), "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me....".

Herein is the great mystery of the Godhead. They are One, yet distinct Persons. Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? Have you been born-again? That means Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in Christ. Correct? Do you cease to be you? Are you just Jesus Christ in your body? Please tell me how that works...ok?

In (John 17) Jesus, God the Son, is praying to God the Father. He is not talking to Himself. He is talking to another. That He always existed as the Son with the Father is clear in His statement, "...the glory which I had with thee before the world was." He existed with the Father prior to the incarnation and was distinct from the Father. And they shared the same glory as both were God.

The One in (Rev. 4:11) is the same as the One worshiped in (4:8). "...Holy,holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." And He is the same as the One in the midst of the throne in (5:5-7). So?

Read my first two paragraphs again.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

And if a Mormon or Seventh Day Adventist, or Jehovah Witness, or Romanist, comes to Christ, will he be saved? How much doctrine are you requiring him to know about Christ in order to be saved? How much did Peter know?

Stranger

False doctrine = false Christ. But we come to know the true Christ by a true understanding of his word. If we reject the truth after having it clearly presented, we do not follow the true Christ.

 

[Stranger]

False doctrine = false Christ. But we come to know the true Christ by a true understanding of his word. If we reject the truth after having it clearly presented, we do not follow the true Christ.

Yes, I know, you already said that. Now would you answer my questions.

Stranger

 

[101G]

Yes, the Son is never the Father. The Father is never the Son. The Holy Spirit is never the Father. The Father and Son are never the Holy Spirit. But they are God. Jesus said, (John 14:7), "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also...". Also, (John 14:9) "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" Also, (John 14:11), "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me....".

Herein is the great mystery of the Godhead. They are One, yet distinct Persons. Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? Have you been born-again? That means Jesus Christ is in you, and you are in Christ. Correct? Do you cease to be you? Are you just Jesus Christ in your body? Please tell me how that works...ok?

In (John 17) Jesus, God the Son, is praying to God the Father. He is not talking to Himself. He is talking to another. That He always existed as the Son with the Father is clear in His statement, "...the glory which I had with thee before the world was." He existed with the Father prior to the incarnation and was distinct from the Father. And they shared the same glory as both were God.

The One in (Rev. 4:11) is the same as the One worshiped in (4:8). "...Holy,holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." And He is the same as the One in the midst of the throne in (5:5-7). So?

Read my first two paragraphs again.

Stranger

you said, "The One in (Rev. 4:11) is the same as the One worshiped in (4:8)", good, but who is it that sits on the throne the Lord Jesus the Son or the one whom you calls the Father? which one.

PS I read your first two paragraphs. and while in John 14 who sent the comforter? was it the one whom you calls the Father or Jesus?

I'll be looking for your answer.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, I know, you already said that. Now would you answer my questions.

Stranger

State them clearly so we know which ones you refer to.

 

[Stranger]

you said, "The One in (Rev. 4:11) is the same as the One worshiped in (4:8)", good, but who is it that sits on the throne the Lord Jesus the Son or the one whom you calls the Father? which one.

PS I read your first two paragraphs. and while in John 14 who sent the comforter? was it the one whom you calls the Father or Jesus?

I'll be looking for your answer.

You will have to wait awhile. You're not the only one asking questions. Please answer my questions. Then we will continue with yours.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

State them clearly so we know which ones you refer to.

See post # (26).

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

And if a Mormon or Seventh Day Adventist, or Jehovah Witness, or Romanist, comes to Christ, will he be saved? How much doctrine are you requiring him to know about Christ in order to be saved? How much did Peter know?

Stranger

See post # (26).

Stranger

Salvation is of grace through the new birth that precedes faith. But those born again will also have an ear for the truth when confronted with it. Those who reject it are not born again.

 

[farouk]

Salvation is of grace through the new birth that precedes faith. But those born again will also have an ear for the truth when confronted with it. Those who reject it are not born again.

There does need to be a work of the Spirit, indeed, in the new birth.

 

[101G]

Not saying you are wrong either but (IMO) you can’t use ‘First’ to prove a point concerning the Godhead. Not when ‘first’ and ‘last’ refers to flesh and Spirit...rather than the first position of the godhead. If that is true wouldn’t it be equality in the Godhead since that is what He is?

Matthew 20:16
[16] So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

1 Corinthians 15:46
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

If you will receive it then Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Bring to Life: “I am He that Liveth (resurrection Spirit), and was flesh(dead) ; BEHOLD (See) I am alive for evermore...and have the keys of hell and of death.” Amen.

first thanks for your reply.

yes, I'm using "first" and "last" in the Godhead in reference to "PERSONS". just as beginning and ending,
see the Lord Jesus is the beginning and the Last. the Alpha and the Omega.
and true, It wouldn’t be equality in the Godhead since that is what He is? which is my POINT.

 

[101G]

In (John 17) Jesus, God the Son, is praying to God the Father. He is not talking to Himself. He is talking to another. That He always existed as the Son with the Father is clear in His statement, "...the glory which I had with thee before the world was." He existed with the Father prior to the incarnation and was distinct from the Father. And they shared the same glory as both were God.

I hope this is your question that you're speaking of.

let me explain. Jesus is the diversity or the OFFSPRING of himself in flesh. hence the "Another" of G243 allos. by being the "another" of his OWNself as a diversity of himself he can do that. let's see that diversity of himself right in John 17, listen.
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

this sounds like two PERSONS don't it? well no, because he is the equal share of his ownself in flesh. the conjunction "AND" here makes that clear. for example,
James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

see it now stranger? God "and" Father, that's ONE PERSON.

so John chapter is speaking of one PERSON who is the Diversity of HIMSELF in flesh.

now, mind answering my question. "who is setting on the throne in rev 4:11 and 4:8 & 9.

your answer please.

 

[farouk]

False doctrine = false Christ. But we come to know the true Christ by a true understanding of his word. If we reject the truth after having it clearly presented, we do not follow the true Christ.

An understanding of the Person of Christ is impossible to separate from an understanding from Scripture of the work of Christ. The Epistle to the Hebrews is a strong demonstration of this.