Who is Jesus to a Non-Trinitarian?

[Matthias]

One God.

1 self? 3 selfs? You don’t know how many selfs? You know how many selfs but for some reason prefer not to say?

Here’s how I would answer the question if you had asked me: One God. One self.

Some trinitarians answer the question as I do, some trinitarians don’t. I didn’t mention it, because it has been such a rare occurrence in my experience, but occasionally trinitarians will say they don’t know.

 

[Josho]

1 self? 3 selfs? You don’t know how many selfs? You know how many selfs but for some reason prefer not to say?

I have gave my answer and have posted what I have posted, God bless your week and have a good day.

 

[Matthias]

I have gave my answer and have posted what I have posted, God bless your week and have a good day.

Okay. Thanks. You too.

 

[Matthias]

Would any trinitarian on the forums care to say publicly how many selfs you believe the Trinity is?

 

[Gregory]

To put it simply, I believe God is 3 in 1, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all are the one same God, the one true God, they are what make God, God, and have been around eternity and eternity to come, God has and always will be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that is the image of the one true God.

Then do you believe that:

1) this 3 in 1 God existed in a 3 in 1 form as a spirit, before the life of Jesus on earth?
2) this 3 in 1 God was born of Mary and dwelt in human form during the life of Jesus?
3) this 3 in 1 God was crucified on Calvary?
4) this 3 in 1 God was resurrected and dwells in a flesh and bone body today? (see Luke 24:39)
5) this 3 in 1 God sits on the right hand of God, waiting for the 2nd coming of this 3 in 1 God?

Answer each question please. And Thank you.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

1) this 3 in 1 God existed in a 3 in 1 form as a spirit, before the life of Jesus on earth?

No, Scripture Clearly Identifies Three: Father, Son, And Holy Spirit As
"ONE Triune God(Head)," not "a spirit":

1Jn 5:7 "For There Are Three That Bear Record in heaven, The
Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost: and These Three Are One."

​

2) this 3 in 1 God was born of Mary and dwelt in human form during the life of Jesus?
3) this 3 in 1 God was crucified on Calvary?
4) this 3 in 1 God was resurrected and dwells in a flesh and bone body today?

No, only The SON Humbled Himself, As A Man, To Make
The Infinite Payment For our wretched sin, With Eternal Love:

Php_2:8 "And Being Found in fashion as A Man, He Humbled Himself,
and Became obedient unto death, even The Death Of The Cross."
(the 4 gospels, especially Mat 1:21; Luk 1:35; John_1:1-14)

Act 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which The Holy Ghost Hath Made you overseers, to feed the
church of God, Which He Hath Purchased With His OWN BLOOD."

Precious friend, @Gregory, believest thou this?

Note: ALL Three Participated In The Resurrection Of The LORD Jesus

(1) The LORD JESUS Raised HIMSELF From the dead!:

"JESUS Answered And Said Unto them, Destroy This Temple, and in three
days I Will Raise It Up!...But HE Spake Of The Temple Of HIS BODY!"
(John_2:19, John_2:21 cp John_10:17-18)
+
(2) God, The Father, Raised HIS SON From the dead!:

"Whom God Hath Raised Up, Having Loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that He should be holden of it!"

(Acts_2:24 cp Acts_2:32, Acts_3:15, Acts_3:26, Acts_10:40,
Acts_13:30, Acts_13:34, Acts _7:31; Romans_4:24, 6:4,
Romans_8:11; Ephesians_1:20; 1_Corinthians 6:14;
2_Corinthians 4:14; Hebrews_13:20; 1_Peter 1:21)
+
(3) The Holy Spirit Raised The LORD JESUS CHRIST From the dead!:

"But if The Spirit Of HIM That Raised Up JESUS From the dead
Dwell in you, He That Raised up CHRIST from the dead Shall Also
Quicken your mortal bodies By HIS Spirit That Dwelleth In you."

(Romans_8:11 cp Acts_2:24, Acts_2:32; 1 Peter_3:18)

5) this 3 in 1 God sits on the right hand of God, waiting for the 2nd coming of this 3 in 1 God?

No, The SON "Sits On The Right Hand Of Majesty" (Hebrews_1:3, 8:1)
------------------
Since there is "another jesus" (2Co 11:4), God Definitely Warns us:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain
deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the
world, and not after Christ. For In Him

Dwelleth ALL The Fulness Of The Godhead Bodily.
​

And ye Are Complete In Him, Which Is The Head of all
principality and power" (Col 2:8-10)
​

All Precious friends, are you COMPLETE In Christ?
If not, please review:

Grace, Peace, And JOY...

 

[APAK]

So I take it then a Trinitarian would have to or is forced to agree there are 3 selves and 3 spirits in their God. Unless the three persons shared the same self and the same spirit. Either way, the conclusion becomes so abstract, artificial and absurd to even discuss sanely anymore.

The one cardinal one true God is (ONE) Spirit and (ONE) person only. Anything else destroys and utterly distorts the foundation and rudimentary basis in understanding the Bible, the word of the ONE indivisible God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Would any trinitarian on the forums care to say publicly how many selfs you believe the Trinity is?

SELF: The union of elements (such as body, emotions, thoughts, and sensations) that constitute the individuality and identity of a person
Obviously an individual person is oneself. Three persons, three selves. The Father communicated with His Son and the Holy communicates with us. The Father was pleased with His Son. When Jesus died, He said Father receive my spirit. Obviuosly the Father, being and individual person was not without a spirit, and Jesus had His own spirit that he asked the Fayber to receive and they sent another Spirit to live inside and comfort us. God I spirit and the Bible says God emptied Himself and became flesh, like a pitcher of water being poured out into a cup. God is omniscient, so it's one spirit everything or three individual spirits are everywhere. Still seems like "receive my spirit" means His spirit remains His and isn't blended back into one. He sits on the right hand of the Father in a separate seat and we will see Him separately.

Before earth was created, do you think God existed alone by himself? Wouldn't it be more likely that there are more than one persons in this Godhead? "Let US make man in OUR image."
Who did you think God is talking to, angels? Angels don't create anything.
GOD is LOVE. What is love it is not expressed towards another selve. If it is not an extention of oneself towards another self than it is just selfish.
So your concept of God, who supposed to be everything that love is, was by himself , loving himself before creation. If someone claimed to be a loving person yet never expressed that love towards another person, what would call them?
Selfish? Lovers of themselves. That is interesting , the Bible talks about those who are lovers of themselves.
So, what do think, was God all alone by himself before creation?

 

[Matthias]

SELF: The union of elements (such as body, emotions, thoughts, and sensations) that constitute the individuality and identity of a person
Obviously an individual person is oneself. Three persons, three selves. The Father communicated with His Son and the Holy communicates with us. The Father was pleased with His Son. When Jesus died, He said Father receive my spirit. Obviuosly the Father, being and individual person was not without a spirit, and Jesus had His own spirit that he asked the Fayber to receive and they sent another Spirit to live inside and comfort us. God I spirit and the Bible says God emptied Himself and became flesh, like a pitcher of water being poured out into a cup. God is omniscient, so it's one spirit everything or three individual spirits are everywhere. Still seems like "receive my spirit" means His spirit remains His and isn't blended back into one. He sits on the right hand of the Father in a separate seat and we will see Him separately.

Before earth was created, do you think God existed alone by himself? Wouldn't it be more likely that there are more than one persons in this Godhead? "Let US make man in OUR image."
Who did you think God is talking to, angels? Angels don't create anything.
GOD is LOVE. What is love it is not expressed towards another selve. If it is not an extention of oneself towards another self than it is just selfish.
So your concept of God, who supposed to be everything that love is, was by himself , loving himself before creation. If someone claimed to be a loving person yet never expressed that love towards another person, what would call them?
Selfish? Lovers of themselves. That is interesting , the Bible talks about those who are lovers of themselves.
So, what do think, was God all alone by himself before creation?

Thanks for your response.

Trinitarians fall into three groups:

1. Those who say the Trinity is one self.
2. Those who say the Trinity is three selfs. You are in this group.
3. Those who don’t say one way or the other.

Scripture doesn’t have anything to say about “God Himselfs”.

Do I think before earth was created that God existed alone by himself? No, I don’t.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Thanks for your response.

Trinitarians fall into three groups:

1. Those who say the Trinity is one self.
2. Those who say the Trinity is three selfs. You are in this group.
3. Those who don’t say one way or the other.

Scripture doesn’t have anything to say about “God Himselfs”.

Do I think before earth was created that God existed alone by himself? No, I don’t.

How many groups do non-Trinitarians fall into?
Seems like there are few as well.
Also, Trinitarians have one view if who Jesus is. Non-Trinitarians, have many.

 

[Matthias]

How many groups do non-Trinitarians fall into?

Thousands.

Seems like there are few as well.

Survey all of the non-trinitarian groups which have existed throughout history. It’s a broad category.

Judaism is the one in that group which interests me.

Also, Trinitarians have one view if who Jesus is.

There was a time when I wouldn’t have even thought twice about it.

Non-Trinitarians, have many.

Yes.

 

[Keiw]

No, Scripture Clearly Identifies Three: Father, Son, And Holy Spirit As
"ONE Triune God(Head)," not "a spirit":

1Jn 5:7 "For There Are Three That Bear Record in heaven, The
Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost: and These Three Are One."

View attachment 26260​

No, only The SON Humbled Himself, As A Man, To Make
The Infinite Payment For our wretched sin, With Eternal Love:

Php_2:8 "And Being Found in fashion as A Man, He Humbled Himself,
and Became obedient unto death, even The Death Of The Cross."
(the 4 gospels, especially Mat 1:21; Luk 1:35; John_1:1-14)

Act 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which The Holy Ghost Hath Made you overseers, to feed the
church of God, Which He Hath Purchased With His OWN BLOOD."

Precious friend, @Gregory, believest thou this?

Note: ALL Three Participated In The Resurrection Of The LORD Jesus

(1) The LORD JESUS Raised HIMSELF From the dead!:

"JESUS Answered And Said Unto them, Destroy This Temple, and in three
days I Will Raise It Up!...But HE Spake Of The Temple Of HIS BODY!"
(John_2:19, John_2:21 cp John_10:17-18)
+
(2) God, The Father, Raised HIS SON From the dead!:

"Whom God Hath Raised Up, Having Loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that He should be holden of it!"

(Acts_2:24 cp Acts_2:32, Acts_3:15, Acts_3:26, Acts_10:40,
Acts_13:30, Acts_13:34, Acts _7:31; Romans_4:24, 6:4,
Romans_8:11; Ephesians_1:20; 1_Corinthians 6:14;
2_Corinthians 4:14; Hebrews_13:20; 1_Peter 1:21)
+
(3) The Holy Spirit Raised The LORD JESUS CHRIST From the dead!:

"But if The Spirit Of HIM That Raised Up JESUS From the dead
Dwell in you, He That Raised up CHRIST from the dead Shall Also
Quicken your mortal bodies By HIS Spirit That Dwelleth In you."

(Romans_8:11 cp Acts_2:24, Acts_2:32; 1 Peter_3:18)

No, The SON "Sits On The Right Hand Of Majesty" (Hebrews_1:3, 8:1)
------------------
Since there is "another jesus" (2Co 11:4), God Definitely Warns us:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain
deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the
world, and not after Christ. For In Him

Dwelleth ALL The Fulness Of The Godhead Bodily.
​

And ye Are Complete In Him, Which Is The Head of all
principality and power" (Col 2:8-10)​

All Precious friends, are you COMPLETE In Christ?
If not, please review:

Grace, Peace, And JOY...

You have an error in your bible. It has been proven catholicism deceived its followers with The Father, son and spirit are the 3 witness bearers, It has been proven 100% -The spirit, water and blood are the 3 witness bearers, this occurred out of Catholicisms own archives the proof was brought out. Many translations changed to the truth. You are being mislead in error filled translations that are as well altered, by satans will.

 

[Wrangler]

So I take it then a Trinitarian would have to or is forced to agree there are 3 selves and 3 spirits in their God. Unless the three persons shared the same self and the same spirit. Either way, the conclusion becomes so abstract, artificial and absurd to even discuss sanely anymore.

The one cardinal one true God is (ONE) Spirit and (ONE) person only. Anything else destroys and utterly distorts the foundation and rudimentary basis in understanding the Bible, the word of the ONE indivisible God.

The most bizarro thing is how many trinitarians are adamant that one must believe a contradiction to be saved despite no Biblical statement to that affect. That's why I've been relying on this meme.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Thousands.



Survey all of the non-trinitarian groups which have existed throughout history. It’s a broad category.

Judaism is the one in that group which interests me.



There was a time when I wouldn’t have even thought twice about it.



Yes.

How many non-Trinitarian Christian groups is what I meant to ask. But when you include all humanity, yes there are thousands and individually, without the Bible, each person has his own view of who his god is.
The Book of John reveals Jesus deity. Bit the entire Bible reflects this as well. It all seems to be about Him. If He wasn't God, God's Word would not put so much emphasis on Him. Jesus could not be a Savior if He wasn't God. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. A mere man could not take on the sins of the world no a goat could carry sins of the Israelites. Jesus became sin! Think about that. He had to be aware of all sins for all time - trillions. He felt the wait, burden, guilt of all sins. We individually are not even aware of all our own sins. A savior, as in a hero of many people can be attributed to one man but not to all humanity for all time.
To think that God could give a mere man all authority in heaven and on earth, all power and all knowledge is not possible. You must be all mighty God to hold that position. It would be like giving Lassy responsibility to watch over every farm animal and little child. Just to possess the capacity of knowledge of EVERYTHING is far beyond all the angels and humans put together. The power is as well. Wherever two pray in Jesus name, He is there. So He is omnipresent. That is also the ability of the Holy Spirit, Who glorifies Jesus and brings to remembrance everything He taught us, nothing more, nothing less.
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
Think about that one statement. Look to Him get to God. He is the path to God, because He is God. None of the prophets ever made claims like Jesus did. We are to relate to God and Jesus was the exact expression and illumination of God in the flesh. We have a relationship with Jesus is the same as saying we have a relationship with God.
He wasn't just a man but was also a Spiritual Being who was previously glorified with the Father prior to His birth.
Truth means reality, what is real. In Him all things consist (are held together). That means every atom in the universe. Col. 1:16,17 confirms this.
Jesus is the life. Not just physical life, but spiritual life. He has the power to resurrect 2.6 Christians (or whatever 1/3 of the population of the planet is at His return) as He did himself. Believing in Him holds the promise of eternal life. That equates with believing in God.
"I and the Father are One." He is saying that He is God. A mere man cannot make that claim. He wasn't just saying He was one with God's purpose.
Exodus 3:14 was God's introduction ( I Am) to Moses and the Israelites that would later be fully revealed in Christ.
I am the way, the Truth and the life ...
I am the Bread of life
I am the Good Shepherd ...
I am the resurrection...
I am the door ...
I am the Alpha and Omega
I am He ...
He is the Savior, the Messiah, God.

 

[Matthias]

How many non-Trinitarian Christian groups is what I meant to ask. But when you include all humanity, yes there are thousands and individually, without the Bible, each person has his own view of who his god is.
The Book of John reveals Jesus deity. Bit the entire Bible reflects this as well. It all seems to be about Him. If He wasn't God, God's Word would not put so much emphasis on Him. Jesus could not be a Savior if He wasn't God. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. A mere man could not take on the sins of the world no a goat could carry sins of the Israelites. Jesus became sin! Think about that. He had to be aware of all sins for all time - trillions. He felt the wait, burden, guilt of all sins. We individually are not even aware of all our own sins. A savior, as in a hero of many people can be attributed to one man but not to all humanity for all time.
To think that God could give a mere man all authority in heaven and on earth, all power and all knowledge is not possible. You must be all mighty God to hold that position. It would be like giving Lassy responsibility to watch over every farm animal and little child. Just to possess the capacity of knowledge of EVERYTHING is far beyond all the angels and humans put together. The power is as well. Wherever two pray in Jesus name, He is there. So He is omnipresent. That is also the ability of the Holy Spirit, Who glorifies Jesus and brings to remembrance everything He taught us, nothing more, nothing less.
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
Think about that one statement. Look to Him get to God. He is the path to God, because He is God. None of the prophets ever made claims like Jesus did. We are to relate to God and Jesus was the exact expression and illumination of God in the flesh. We have a relationship with Jesus is the same as saying we have a relationship with God.
He wasn't just a man but was also a Spiritual Being who was previously glorified with the Father prior to His birth.
Truth means reality, what is real. In Him all things consist (are held together). That means every atom in the universe. Col. 1:16,17 confirms this.
Jesus is the life. Not just physical life, but spiritual life. He has the power to resurrect 2.6 Christians (or whatever 1/3 of the population of the planet is at His return) as He did himself. Believing in Him holds the promise of eternal life. That equates with believing in God.
"I and the Father are One." He is saying that He is God. A mere man cannot make that claim. He wasn't just saying He was one with God's purpose.
Exodus 3:14 was God's introduction ( I Am) to Moses and the Israelites that would later be fully revealed in Christ.
I am the way, the Truth and the life ...
I am the Bread of life
I am the Good Shepherd ...
I am the resurrection...
I am the door ...
I am the Alpha and Omega
I am He ...
He is the Savior, the Messiah, God.

Listen to Jesus. He’s a non-trinitarian.

 

[APAK]

The most bizarro thing is how many trinitarians are adamant that one must believe a contradiction to be saved despite to Biblical statement to that affect. That's why I've been relying on this meme.

It's a fitting one....and it really has come down to this type of reactive deep fear in their eyes when confronted with the truth of the Son of God, the man the 2nd Adam.

Then retaliation and the freak-out show begins where you might get as a response an avalanche of verses as a long list that is meant to amaze you, silence you, and close the books on the subject. And they are the typical dozen or two verses every time, without even offering any kind of commentary or justification or any explanation or anything that should convince you to reconsider their view. Because they do not have a scriptural view at all. They assume they already own the high road going into to any discussion or debate with any non-Trinitarian or even non-Binitarian. The folly of the unprepared and ill-equipped to go beyond just citing chapter and verse. And they cannot go much deeper as they are afraid they will be be found as just being parrots for the authors of their distorted doctrines they have been taught at home or in a 'Churchianity' setting.

I believe most do not even have a Bible in their immediate grasp to even do any Bible study.

Urban Dictionary: Churchianity
-----------------------------------
Churchianity....
A term coined by Bible teacher Richard Pope during a sermon characterizing the condition of the modern-day Christian Church and how different it's teachings are from the original ideas and message of the historical Jesus.
XYZ Church is just another example of Churchianity. Jesus never taught the things the pastor said in this morning's sermon.
by AgapeGuru July 20, 2010

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Listen to Jesus. He’s a non-trinitarian.

And that about wraps it up with our dialogue. Bye.

 

[Matthias]

And that about wraps it up with our dialogue. Bye.

Come again anytime. I’ll leave the light on for you.

 

[Wrangler]

Then retaliation and the freak-out show begins where you might get as a response an avalanche of verses as a long list that is meant to amaze you, silence you, and close the books on the subject. And they are the typical dozen or two verses every time, without even offering any kind of commentary or justification or any explanation or anything that should convince you to reconsider their view. Because they do not have a scriptural view at all. They assume they already own the high road going into to any discussion or debate with any non-Trinitarian or even non-Binitarian. The folly of the unprepared and ill-equipped to go beyond just citing chapter and verse. And they cannot go much deeper as they are afraid they will be be found as just being parrots for the authors of their distorted doctrines they have been taught at home or in a 'Churchianity' setting.

This is plainly - or to borrow their preferred term - clearly shown by their response to what I often post. The Bible says 'For us, there is one God, the Father', which affirms what Jesus said; that he has a God - who we relate to as father - who is the only true God. This is good enough for me. Why is this not good enough for you?

They have no response. They don't know why it is not good enough for them.

Regarding the retaliation and the freak-out show; it is a good way to put it. It must be a psychological response to the inevitable cognitive dissonance those who rely on mysticism live through. Proof of how wrong you are is how upset I am. Huh?

 

[Kermos]

This is plainly - or to borrow their preferred term - clearly shown by their response to what I often post. The Bible says 'For us, there is one God, the Father', which affirms what Jesus said; that he has a God - who we relate to as father - who is the only true God. This is good enough for me. Why is this not good enough for you?


They have no response. They don't know why it is not good enough for them.


Regarding the retaliation and the freak-out show; it is a good way to put it. It must be a psychological response to the inevitable cognitive dissonance those who rely on mysticism live through. Proof of how wrong you are is how upset I am. Huh?

"for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist" (Paul, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

"For us, there is one God, the Father who is the only person of God from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ who is not God, through whom are all things and through whom we exist" (Wrangler and @APAK, evil heart words).

Your evil heart words directly contradicts the Apostle Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 8:6, rhe same Paul who calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) calls Jesus the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) by saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) thus declaring Himself eternal, and the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is exclusively eternal; therefore, Jesus declares Himself the One True God, YHWH!

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT JESUS WAS CREATED.

Jesus is YHWH God according to consistent Apostolic testimony.